For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[MoreCoffee]

I'd like to see a response to post 117.

Thanks.

I didn't know you self-identified as 'charismatic' Hammster ... do you so identify?

 

[Hammster]

I didn't know you self-identified as 'charismatic' Hammster ... do you so identify?

Nope.

 

[popsthebuilder]

This isn't about specific sins, the goal posts were moved a while back for some reason. We were speaking about healing apparently being kept from sinners. It is all too easy to fall into sin: falsely accusing another, which we see routinely, these are judgments - sinful ones at that. I have yet to find anyone who is in the heart and mind of the person accused. Sins are sins regardless of being deliberate.

I agree justifying sins is never an excuse, but a self justifying attitude can also be assuming we never sin because Christ 'released' us from it. This simply isn't true, while we are in flesh we have weaknesses - those we are not even aware of. Willfully sinning is another matter, yes that is controllable, yet sin in totality? Being enslaved to sin, and being sin free are different matters.

There is no self defeatist mindset in trusting in the Lord to lead us through our infirmities.


Did Jesus love Satan the most when He was tempted?


We agree on this. What's the reference to the book of Job for?

If he would have succumb to Satan's temptations then you could say yes. Thankfully, he did not.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[Alithis]

Did Jesus love Satan the most when He was tempted?

of course not .. that's why he did not get tempted by the temptation offered . we can only be tempted into actually doing what we already desire to do .. the lord Jesus did not desire to take over the world and have all the glory that snake w offering him -he desired to lay down his life in love to save mankind .. his love for the father and for us was great.

folks need to get this realization into their hearts and cease from excusing themselves . and when i speak of specific sin i speak of things like .. lying to mislead or gain glory .. stealing .. ..fornication and adultery (ie porn) wanting what some one else has and striving to get it .. (covetousness ) .. loving the world more then we love God ..
ie- the absolutes laid out in the ten commandments..
sins outside of this a matter of conscience between you and God .. like knowing what the holy Spirit is asking you to do .. then not doing it (to know what is right and not do it )

- the reference to the book of job is an entire book on the topic - jobs councilors persisted in accusing him of sin as the reason that every thing befell him and they pointed the finger at his state ..job had become a very sick man ( he states so -sitting on a asj pile scrapinmg puissy boils off his skin and suffering a fever day and night .. he was not a well man ) they accused him of " not being healed " because of his sin .. but he denied and refuted it and later God himself vindicated him.. and when all the naysayers said .. he won't be healed he must deserve this ill.. God not only healed him but raised him to to a status greater then he had before his persecutions befell him .
Gods word is truth .. to the humble in heart who calls upon him ..he hears .. and he heals. and he says to him who believes ..ALL things are possible .

The moment we suggest it is not so , we oppose the word of God and rob people of the Hope of faith . and i will not take part in doing that .

 

[Alithis]

post 117

If Timothy's issue was stress, then Paul should have told him be anxious for nothing.

here is your response .. i listed stress as a possible partial factor as part of the assumption the entire timothy argument was based around - as iv said before the entire argument surrounding timothy not being healed at the time ..or that he was never healed is all based on assumption it is a dead end circular argument upon which NO sound doctrine can be built .

 

[seekingsolace]

of course not .. that's why he did not get tempted by the temptation offered . we can only be tempted into actually doing what we already desire to do .. the lord Jesus did not desire to take over the world and have all the glory that snake w offering him -he desired to lay down his life in love to save mankind .. his love for the father and for us was great.

But the rationale doesn't fit. This is why I didn't feel the statement of temptation as only from what we love the most was fair or accurate. Many sins people hate passionately, yet they commit them. I am not speaking of direct sins. I feel we have plenty to support this, poor old Paul did often enough.

folks need to get this realization into their hearts and cease from excusing themselves . and when i speak of specific sin i speak of things like .. lying to mislead or gain glory .. stealing .. ..fornication and adultery (ie porn) wanting what some one else has and striving to get it .. (covetousness ) .. loving the world more then we love God ..
ie- the absolutes laid out in the ten commandments..

On this we agree. I would like to add even justifying the smallest of sins I do not agree with.

sins outside of this a matter of conscience between you and God .. like knowing what the holy Spirit is asking you to do .. then not doing it (to know what is right and not do it )

I agree with this sentiment. Although I do believe some are led astray because many delude ourselves to believe we are led by the Spirit, but it is our own ambitions. Of course we have the Word of God leading us to truth also, so never an excuse.

- the reference to the book of job is an entire book on the topic - jobs councilors persisted in accusing him of sin as the reason that every thing befell him and they pointed the finger at his state ..job had become a very sick man ( he states so -sitting on a asj pile scrapinmg puissy boils off his skin and suffering a fever day and night .. he was not a well man ) they accused him of " not being healed " because of his sin .. but he denied and refuted it and later God himself vindicated him.. and when all the naysayers said .. he won't be healed he must deserve this ill.. God not only healed him but raised him to to a status greater then he had before his persecutions befell him .
Gods word is truth .. to the humble in heart who calls upon him ..he hears .. and he heals. and he says to him who believes ..ALL things are possible .

I know the book of Job well, one of my favourites surprisingly. Just didn't understand how this was relevant to claiming healing on demand. I don't recall Job requesting this?

The moment we suggest it is not so , we oppose the word of God and rob people of the Hope of faith . and i will not take part in doing that .

I genuinely hope you do not feel that is our purpose. We all know all things are possible with God. Miracles have been done, and continue to. Hope and faith are what preserve us. The issue I have is claiming healing can be done on demand. But you agreed with me on this

As a side note: I keep returning to posts to edit, as I struggle to put into words my hearts intent; words can be so lacking when we need them.

 

[Alithis]

But the rationale doesn't fit. This is why I didn't feel the statement of temptation as only from what we love the most was fair or accurate. Many sins people hate passionately, yet they commit them. I am not speaking of direct sins. I feel we have plenty to support this, poor old Paul did often enough.
.

we sin presumptuously all the time by the very fact we inhabit sinful flesh . but this is covered by the grace of god and is not a state of our moral character being transformed into the image of the lord jesus by the power of the holy Spirit at work in us .

but that which we know to be sinful by both conscience and the unambiguous word of God is what we are addressing here in this little sub topic .
and its a good topic to expound .deserving of its own thread ..so lets take it there and let this thread get back to the healing ...

to those that have not been healed ... really should read .. to those who have not been healed Yet ...!

I say, hold fast in your faith and do not waver ..for your redeemer lives . take heart and do not cast off love nor be discouraged in the days of hardship..

for job was the most righteous man on earth in his day and the lord allowed persecution in lose and hardship in sickness to befall him and it resulted in a refining of righteousness, a testing and purifying of it -for he does not say we shall not suffer .. but he does say .. do not be dismayed as though some strange thing is happening when we suffer in faith
and he does say God works all things(includes sufferings ) together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

so take heart and only be strong and very courageous.

 

[Hammster]

I've seen Isaiah 5:5 used as a proof text. It says we ARE healed by His wounds. There's no mention of faith. The healing is directly related to His wounds.

So why isn't everyone healed?

 

[Alithis]

I've seen Isaiah 5:5 used as a proof text. It says we ARE healed by His wounds. There's no mention of faith. The healing is directly related to His wounds.

So why isn't everyone healed?

same reason they are not all saved ..

unbelief and
disobedience leading to faith not being exercised .

 

[Hammster]

same reason they are not all saved ..

unbelief and
disobedience leading to faith not being exercised .

Faith isn't mentioned. Try again.

 

[psalms 91]

Without faith you cannot please God so without faithyou can expect nothing I think James talks about that. I also think that iif you expect healing without faith then you must think you can do it without God, is that it? KLets face it, some things the writers assumed were known and faith is one of them, a lot of Pauls writings were to those who knew and understood certain things therefore he did not do repititious writings

 

[Hammster]

Without faith you cannot please God so without faithyou can expect nothing I think James talks about that. I also think that iif you expect healing without faith then you must think you can do it without God, is that it? KLets face it, some things the writers assumed were known and faith is one of them, a lot of Pauls writings were to those who knew and understood certain things therefore he did not do repititious writings

Please stay on track here. The passage says nothing about faith being needed, or that we need to please God in order to be healed. It says by His wounds we ARE (not may be if we have faith) healed. So healing is directly related to His wounds, not our faith.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Healing is a grace - a gift given by God - so it is not clear how or why some particular qualification is needed before it can be received unless one must earn grace ... but none of the faithful really believes that any grace is earned even if some graces do not come until others are matured in them.

 

[psalms 91]

Please stay on track here. The passage says nothing about faith being needed, or that we need to please God in order to be healed. It says by His wounds we ARE (not may be if we have faith) healed. So healing is directly related to His wounds, not our faith.

I will leave you to it

 

[Hammster]

I will leave you to it

I know. You cannot address what's plainly there, and need to add to scripture to make your point.

 

[psalms 91]

I know. You cannot address what's plainly there, and need to add to scripture to make your point.

As you wish to see it is fine, I refuse to get into it with you

 

[Hammster]

As you wish to see it is fine, I refuse to get into it with you

As per usual. Hit and git.

 

[Alithis]

Without faith you cannot please God so without faithyou can expect nothing I think James talks about that. I also think that iif you expect healing without faith then you must think you can do it without God, is that it? KLets face it, some things the writers assumed were known and faith is one of them, a lot of Pauls writings were to those who knew and understood certain things therefore he did not do repititious writings

i think this is right on track ..you can't disassociate faith from the topic ever everything the lord jesus accomplished on the cross is appropriated by faith.

 

[MoreCoffee]

i think this is right on track ..you can't disassociate faith from the topic ever everything the lord jesus accomplished on the cross is appropriated by faith.

Yet the Lord healed ten lepers of their leprosy and only one had faith. That story points to healing as a grace that does not require faith as a prerequisite doesn't it?

Luke 17:12-19 KJV And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: (13) And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. (14) And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. (15) And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (16) And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (17) And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? (18) There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. (19) And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.​

It was the faithful leper who was praised but all ten were healed so it appears that the faithful receive healing and praise but even the unfaithful receive healing ...

 

[Alithis]

Yet the Lord healed ten lepers of their leprosy and only one had faith. That story points to healing as a grace that does not require faith as a prerequisite doesn't it?

Luke 17:12-19 KJV And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: (13) And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. (14) And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. (15) And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, (16) And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. (17) And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? (18) There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. (19) And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.​

It was the faithful leper who was praised but all ten were healed so it appears that the faithful receive healing and praise but even the unfaithful receive healing ...

hmm you've lost me there .. 10 were healed .. one was grateful. not having more faith .. the lord Jesus had the faith where theirs lacked -isn't this the way all through the scriptures ? God makes up for mans shortfall . the entire gospel message is god making up for mans shortfall .
sometimes we miss the simplistic principles .. if the ground is dry and parched and there are 10 plants dying of thirst and i pour a bucket of water onto one of them ..it splashes and runs also on the ground around the others and they too are blessed by virtue of the first ones blessing . the rain falls on both wheat and tare and both grow . but "the just shall live by faith " the tare just enjoys its resulting blessing and does not submit the heart to the holy Spirit to listen to him and obey . thus though the many are blessed -not all go on to live by faith ". and thus do not go on to walk pleasing to God .