Double Predestination

atpollard

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If I answer "no", then the response will be "so you agree that God predestines some to damnation"

If one is so Biblically inclined (either you, Menno, or someone else) to know the answer as to what God has worked or not worked, then answer.
And I'm avoiding... *sigh
I can't speak for anyone else but me, but I would not have forced the conclusion "so you agree that God predestines some to damnation" into your mouth.
First, it is not a conclusion that is unavoidable from a simple 'no', it is just one of several possibilities.
Second, I do not believe that God predestines some to damnation.

I believe that scripture teaches that were all dead in sin and God chose/elected/foreknew/predestined (choose your word) some to be drawn to Jesus, claimed as His sheep and saved.
I believe that scripture teaches that salvation is 100% God's work.
(verses available upon request).

I conclude from this the inescapable logic that those who are not saved (since not all go to heaven) were NOT "chose/elected/foreknew/predestined (choose your word) some to be drawn to Jesus, claimed as His sheep".
If they had been "chose/elected/foreknew/predestined (choose your word) some to be drawn to Jesus, claimed as His sheep", then they would be saved.
I have no idea why God "chose/elected/foreknew/predestined" one and not another. I know from scripture some reasons that are NOT why God made the choice He made. For example, I know it has nothing to do with any merit in the saved ... no one earned or deserved it.

True orthodox Reformed Theology does not teach WHY, because the Bible does not teach why. Only heresies say God actively chooses to draw some to salvation and to push the rest towards damnation. Calvinism does acknowledge what the Bible teaches, that all men are naturally born sinners and God haters and will earn their own damnation if left alone in their dead, fallen state. God need do nothing to damn men, we are fully capable of earning our own damnation. A gift from our Father Adam.
 

atpollard

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1. SO... it's not primarily "semantics" as you suggested earlier; there are real, fundamental, defining difference between Single and Double Predestination; indeed, it may well be THE issue that defines Calvinism. So I think we're pretty much back to square one. And, it seems to me, if Double Predestination is abandoned by "modern" Calvinism, there goes pretty much the rest of TULIP, it all pretty much rests on the Double Predestination thing because without it, the rest isn't "logical." ???

- Josiah
STOP JUMPING AROUND!
You are making me dizzy.

Single vs Double Predestination is semantics.

Limited Atonement: is a real difference based on where Calvinists and Lutherans draw the mystery and speculate. Where you say "We don't know." and Calvinist say "From what scripture says, we can logically infer ..." there is a difference.

[EDIT: Looking back at my post, I should probably have deleted the part where you defined Single and Double Predestination before I responded. Some of the fault for the confusion is mine. It was the examples that I briefly addressed that had differences, not Predestination. Predestination is almost pure semantics. We both believe that God saves the saved and the sinners are at fault for their damnation (not God). Calvinists just say that "God did not save the lost", which seems a self-evident statement and not a man-made doctrine or medieval mysticism like you keep trying to compare it to.]
 
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MennoSota

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He did not blaspheme the Spirit.
He says why:

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
All humans do their sinning ignorantly and in unbelief.
You seem obstinantly ready to stand against God's word in order to maintain your argument that God cannot save without human assistance despite the fact that you have zero biblical support.
 

MennoSota

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1. SO... it's not primarily "semantics" as you suggested earlier; there are real, fundamental, defining difference between Single and Double Predestination; indeed, it may well be THE issue that defines Calvinism. So I think we're pretty much back to square one. And, it seems to me, if Double Predestination is abandoned by "modern" Calvinism, there goes pretty much the rest of TULIP, it all pretty much rests on the Double Predestination thing because without it, the rest isn't "logical." ???


2. See, there's my problem..... Even in this thread (and since the first Calvinist I met), the whole issue is how Calvinism is accepting the WORDS of Scripture (their definition of Sola Scriptura) whereas Lutherans "hate" the words of Scripture (that verbatim accusation from a Calvinist has been made repeatedly here at CH toward me and Lamm and Tigger) and it's NON-Calvinists who interject their denominational ideas into Scripture whereas Calvinists just accept the words "as is". You seem to be saying the exact opposite - it's Lutherans accepting the words (and stopping with them) whereas Calvinists like to interject their "speculations" (a word you use) to "push aside the mystery" (ie to replace it with the speculation). It seems to ME you are saying that the constant din that Calvinist charge everyone else with actually applies to Calvinists. I wonder what MennoSota for example thinks of that, lol....


3. Curious, because Protestantism was born largely out of a protest and rejection of what you claim Calvinism is about - interjecting speculation into things and then making that speculation into dogma. The Reformers protested Catholicism inventing stuff no one before had ever so such as mentioned.... human stuff, human conjectures and speculations, human philosphies and prescience concepts, human logic and reason... and then infusing and imposing those speculations into Scripture (where it is certainly NOT taught as even Catholic theologians are apt to admit) - and making DOGMA out of it. It's largely what split the church in 1054 and again in 1521. Now, you seem to be saying, Calvinism thinks Catholicism had the right idea, the most sound rubric, the best approach - just the wrong new human speculations interjected, imposed and dogmatized. You seem to be rebuking Lutheranism for the same reason Catholics do - sticking too much to Scripture and not swallowing new human speculations that some men think are really smart and "resolve" a lot of issues God forgot to. See my point?






No. Lutherans refuse to dogmatize human speculations (intended to alterwhat God said) when it contradicts Scripture. Such as when "all" means "few" and when "save" actually means "condemn." Refer to the video. Hey, we refuse to dogmatized pure speculation even when it doesn't so clearly contradict Scripture (such as the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or the Infallible Pope or Assumption of Mary), but certainly when it does (such as Limited Atonement, Double Predestination, etc.).






Which did God say?





So is Purgatory.... so is the infallible Pope.... so is Transubstantiation.... They aren't biblical but they are logical.

Okay, I miss it but maybe it's 100% human logic. But it seems like 0% God revelation, 0% Scripture. It's certainly a view not only missing in Scripture but I don't know if even one Christian before Calvin thought of it (so Scripture and all Christians for over 1500 years much have lacked sufficient "logic" to even theorize it?

Here's a pretty fair article by a grad of Dallas Theological Seminary and with a fair amount of Calvinist "logic" thrown in. http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html





I wonder if it rather grows out of what you are saying..... what God said in Scripture is very inadequate and that there are those who are to interject, impose, add human speculations and conjectures (even if no Scripture and no Christian knew a thing about it previously), human philosophies and theories, human "logic" and "reason" and "sense" - all because the one who can do this (usually only self) is smarter, more logical, and can make God make sense to self (but may mean a lot of what God said actually means the exact opposite of what he said). Catholicism too believed Scripture is very inadquate... and that one should supplement and correct and refine what God said with the conjectures, speculations, philosophies, theories that self suddenly came up with. Catholicism claims this whole other stream comes from God via invisible "Tradition" from the Apostles (and so at least baselessly CLAIMS some divine source) but it seems Calvinists just point to their own brain. ??????




God does not love the whole world: Except Esau. You have to admit that God said He hated Esau. :)


God hates everyone because he hates sin. But God loves everyone because God is love and His love is unconditional. Nowhere does the Bible say, "God desires most people to fry eternally in hell and so before the world began chose to send them there." " God does not love the world but only a small percentage of it." "God desires most people to fry in hell."


I think we're back to two very different theologies. And we're actually embracing the OPPOSITE of what Calvinists accuse others of, that it's Calvinists who (like Catholicism before it that it protested for doing what it does), appoints self to interject its own new speculations, conjectures, "logic" and theories into things (speculations not mentioned in Scripture, not mentioned by any Christian before) not because Scripture says it but because Scripture does NOT... unwilling to let God have the last word, bow before the sovereignty of God, leave mystery along, admit God likely knows more than self.... Even if the conjecture or theory means a LOT of Scriptures have to be twisted (as you've tried to do?) 180 degrees from what they say. In any case, I'm wondering about the constant din from Calvinists that Lutherans hate Scripture and ignore Scripture and twist Scripture..... maybe it's that, like Catholicism, Calvinism ADDS to Scripture - things it doesn't not say and no one mentioned before them - based entirely on its own speculations, conjectures, constructs, philosophy, "logic," "sense" - even if the result means a lot of Scripture must be twisted 180 degrees to mean something different than what God actually states. Did Calvin simply replace the "Tradition" of the RCC with the "brain" of himself? All to correct God, to make God make sense to self, to subject God to self, to deny the soverignty of God? I keep thinking of my Greek Orthodox friend, "The problem with much of Western Christianity it that it forgot how to shut up."


Interesting discussion....



- Josiah




.
Do you realize you never addressed what the Bible says? In truth, you rarely do. Instead you lean on denominational crutches and avoid scripture. Doesn't that bother you?
 

Imalive

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All humans do their sinning ignorantly and in unbelief.
You seem obstinantly ready to stand against God's word in order to maintain your argument that God cannot save without human assistance despite the fact that you have zero biblical support.

I say the Bible says nowhere except it seems to say in a part of romans 9 that God just chooses, not based on their character, their choice, their hardening. That is made up from Augustine not even Calvin and goes against what the rest of the Bible says.
Anyways. Who cares. This dumb discussing. Another soul got saved today. When Holland is saved theyll listen or not. who cares.
 

MennoSota

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I say the Bible says nowhere except it seems to say in a part of romans 9 that God just chooses. That is made up from Augustine not even Calvin and goes against what the rest of the Bible says.
Anyways. Who cares. This dumb discussing. Another soul got saved today. When Holland is saved theyll listen or not. who cares.
Have you ever done a word study on the amount of times the word chosen, elect and predestined is used in the Bible? Paul and Peter use it often. In nearly evert letter Paul addresses his letter to those who are chosen.
 

MennoSota

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Verses:

Here are the references that fit with predestination and being chosen. There are more arguments based upon various passages, but hopefully this suffices as a start for you.

Predestined:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1: 3-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Chosen
Old Testament


Genesis 18:19
19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Deuteronomy 7:6 & 14:2

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

1 Samuel 10:24
And Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him whom the Lord has chosen? There is none like him among all the people.” And all the people shouted, “Long live the king!” (Referring to God’s choice of David.)
Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
Psalm 105:6
O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!
Psalm 105:26
He sent Moses, his servant, and Aaron, whom he had chosen.
Psalm 105:43
So he brought his people out with joy, his chosen ones with singing.
Psalm 106:23
Therefore he said he would destroy them— had not Moses, his chosen one, stood in the breach before him, to turn away his wrath from destroying them.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isaiah 44:2
Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Fear not, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 65:9
I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, and from Judah possessors of my mountains; my chosen shall possess it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Haggai 2:23
On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.”
Zechariah 3:2
And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?”
 

MennoSota

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Chosen
New Testament
Matthew 22:13-14
Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
John 13:18
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
Acts 10:39-41
And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Romans 1:1
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.
Romans 11:5
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

1 Corinthians 1:1-2
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Sosthenes. 2 I am writing to God’s church in Corinth, to you who have been called by God to be his own holy people. He made you holy by means of Christ Jesus, just as he did for all people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.


2 Corinthians 1:1
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
Ephesians 1:1
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 1:1
This letter is from Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus. I am writing to all of God’s holy people in Philippi who belong to Christ Jesus, including the elders and deacons. (Holy means “set-apart”)
Colossians 1:1-2
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy. 2 We are writing to God’s holy people in the city of Colosse, who are faithful brothers and sisters in Christ.
Colossians 3:12-13
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
1 Thessalonians 1:1
This letter is from Paul, Silas, and Timothy. We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.
1 Timothy 1:1
This letter is from Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus, appointed by the command of God our Savior and Christ Jesus, who gives us hope.
2 Timothy 1:1
This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I have been sent out to tell others about the life he has promised through faith in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:1-2
This letter is from Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I have been sent to proclaim faith to those God has chosen and to teach them to know the truth that shows them how to live godly lives. 2 This truth gives them confidence that they have eternal life, which God—who does not lie—promised them before the world began.
James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
1 Peter 1:1-2
This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:1-2
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior. 2 May God give you more and more grace and peace as you grow in your knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 2:4-5
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Jude 1:1
This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James. I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

Romans 9:15-26
For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea,
“Those who were not my people,
I will now call my people.
And I will love those
whom I did not love before.”
26 And,
“Then, at the place where they were told,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called
‘children of the living God.’”

Jesus words:
John 6:36-40
35 Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

There is more, but hopefully this should suffice to wet your appetite.
 

Imalive

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Have you ever done a word study on the amount of times the word chosen, elect and predestined is used in the Bible? Paul and Peter use it often. In nearly evert letter Paul addresses his letter to those who are chosen.

Yes chosen predestined elected is Biblical. I am only against the teaching made out of a part of Romans that goes against the rest of the Bible, that His choosing has nothing to do with the person's heart. Everywhere God says convert choose repent.
Its gnostic false teaching.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/openair...corrupt-the-church-with-gnostic-doctrine/amp/

Yet a study of history reveals that the doctrine of free will was universally taught by the Early Church, without exception, for the first three to four hundred years. The Early Church was continually defending the doctrine of free will and refuting the Gnostic’s who held to the doctrine of total inability and determinism or fatalism.

The Gnostic’s had a predestination philosophy, or a fatalistic mentality of “Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be.)”1 But the Early Church believed that man’s free choice had a major contribution or ultimate determination to his course and destiny. The Gnostic’s, who claimed to be the real Christians, taught that man’s nature was so corrupted and ruined that man did not have a free choice between good and evil; while the Early Church taught that God has granted the faculty of free will to the nature of all mankind and has preserved that free will so that it has not been lost, as we shall see.

There are those today who make the doctrine of total inability an essential doctrine of the Christian faith and are quick to condemn anyone who would dare question or challenge it. But in the times of early Christianity, the doctrine of free will was considered orthodox and the doctrine of total inability was heretical. Being considered orthodox or heretical is merely a matter of dates. The Early Church said that only Gnostic’s deny the freedom of the will; yet many denominations of our day say that only heretics affirm it.
 

Imalive

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Yes chosen predestined elected is Biblical. I am only against the teaching made out of a part of Romans that goes against the rest of the Bible, that His choosing has nothing to do with the person's heart. Everywhere God says convert choose repent.
Its gnostic false teaching.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/openair...corrupt-the-church-with-gnostic-doctrine/amp/

Yet a study of history reveals that the doctrine of free will was universally taught by the Early Church, without exception, for the first three to four hundred years. The Early Church was continually defending the doctrine of free will and refuting the Gnostic’s who held to the doctrine of total inability and determinism or fatalism.

The Gnostic’s had a predestination philosophy, or a fatalistic mentality of “Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be.)”1 But the Early Church believed that man’s free choice had a major contribution or ultimate determination to his course and destiny. The Gnostic’s, who claimed to be the real Christians, taught that man’s nature was so corrupted and ruined that man did not have a free choice between good and evil; while the Early Church taught that God has granted the faculty of free will to the nature of all mankind and has preserved that free will so that it has not been lost, as we shall see.

There are those today who make the doctrine of total inability an essential doctrine of the Christian faith and are quick to condemn anyone who would dare question or challenge it. But in the times of early Christianity, the doctrine of free will was considered orthodox and the doctrine of total inability was heretical. Being considered orthodox or heretical is merely a matter of dates. The Early Church said that only Gnostic’s deny the freedom of the will; yet many denominations of our day say that only heretics affirm it.

That reminds me of Rodney Howard Browne. I dont listen to him anymore but he could be funny. Que sera sera Doris Day doctrin LOL.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Have you ever done a word study on the amount of times the word chosen, elect and predestined is used in the Bible? Paul and Peter use it often. In nearly evert letter Paul addresses his letter to those who are chosen.

Do you know what a "word study" is? (btw, of course he's done this. He's writing to the established churches.)
 

MennoSota

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Yes chosen predestined elected is Biblical. I am only against the teaching made out of a part of Romans that goes against the rest of the Bible, that His choosing has nothing to do with the person's heart. Everywhere God says convert choose repent.
Its gnostic false teaching.

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/openair...corrupt-the-church-with-gnostic-doctrine/amp/

Yet a study of history reveals that the doctrine of free will was universally taught by the Early Church, without exception, for the first three to four hundred years. The Early Church was continually defending the doctrine of free will and refuting the Gnostic’s who held to the doctrine of total inability and determinism or fatalism.

The Gnostic’s had a predestination philosophy, or a fatalistic mentality of “Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be.)”1 But the Early Church believed that man’s free choice had a major contribution or ultimate determination to his course and destiny. The Gnostic’s, who claimed to be the real Christians, taught that man’s nature was so corrupted and ruined that man did not have a free choice between good and evil; while the Early Church taught that God has granted the faculty of free will to the nature of all mankind and has preserved that free will so that it has not been lost, as we shall see.

There are those today who make the doctrine of total inability an essential doctrine of the Christian faith and are quick to condemn anyone who would dare question or challenge it. But in the times of early Christianity, the doctrine of free will was considered orthodox and the doctrine of total inability was heretical. Being considered orthodox or heretical is merely a matter of dates. The Early Church said that only Gnostic’s deny the freedom of the will; yet many denominations of our day say that only heretics affirm it.

Jeremiah 17
[9]“The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, *** and desperately wicked. *** Who really knows how bad it is?

Where do we see Saul being told to repent on the road to Damascus?

Imalive, you are forcing your bias on the Bible and not letting the Bible speak.

How can a spiritually dead person repent? They cannot. They must be made alive first.
God saves, then the one God chose to save repents. That is how God works. God makes a person alive. You cannot animate your self. You have no power to do so.
 

Imalive

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Jeremiah 17
[9]“The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, *** and desperately wicked. *** Who really knows how bad it is?

Where do we see Saul being told to repent on the road to Damascus?

Imalive, you are forcing your bias on the Bible and not letting the Bible speak.

How can a spiritually dead person repent? They cannot. They must be made alive first.
God saves, then the one God chose to save repents. That is how God works. God makes a person alive. You cannot animate your self. You have no power to do so.

Yes I agree w that too.
Well he did not say: Hi Jesus! Now that You showed me Who You are I dont want You anyway. And the pharisees did. They saw His obvious miracles. They could not get saved because they hardened their hearts and sinned against the Spirit. Then God just gave em over and let the devil blind em. How Calvin and Augustine make it sound is that they did that because He just wanted them to do that or did not care about em. He stretched out His hands to them all day. They refused. He resists the proud.
Jesus says why some bring forth fruit when the Word gets spoken and get His gift of faith by grace through the Word. He speaks and there's Light. He wants everyone saved. They resisted. Pharao resisted Him himself.
Uncircumcized of hearts, you always resist the Spirit.
All Romans 9 says is that He did not have to save and elect that seed from the devil just because they are natural descendants from Abraham.
Esau. The reason is given elsewhere. He did not care. Hebrews 12. Dont be uninterested like Esau. God hates that. No way God foreknows that heart and then choses an uninterested guy to bring forth the Messiah simply because he is the oldest.
He was more interested in food just like Cain was just proud and interested in himself. Genesis said Cain could say no to satan. He did not want.
God wanted to save Jerusalem but they did not want.
Paul said he did it in ignorance and thats why God was merciful.
God says in the Bible why He resists ppl. Its not some mystery, like Augustine made up. That is the only thing I disagree with. Then it'd be random pick and choose from equally bad ppl. Of course noone is good but God alone. No good works save you. We don't start it or deserve it. He draws.
You cannot say that a 2 y o kid who comes to Jesus has the same evil heart as those pharisees. Hard road. Seed falls on it and the devil picks it away. That kid has not hardened his heart.
 
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Imalive

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I was once talking to a guy who calls himself rereformed. He was a born again christian. He taught in church. Now he writes books just like Dawkins and pulls ppl from their faith. He said his going to atheism was like a divorce.
Then he says to me: well if God exists He can give me that Paul conversion within a few days or He does not exist.
I was so dumb to take the bet.
Didnt work of course. He has to humble himself and come back. I believe he will. But you cant just sit there like some proud bozo and say that God doesnt exist because Hes not as superior as him and not a humanist.
The lost son had to get up and get back.
 

MennoSota

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Yes I agree w that too.
Well he did not say: Hi Jesus! Now that You showed me Who You are I dont want You anyway. And the pharisees did. They saw His obvious miracles. They could not get saved because they hardened their hearts and sinned against the Spirit. Then God just gave em over and let the devil blind em. How Calvin and Augustine make it sound is that they did that because He just wanted them to do that or did not care about em. He stretched out His hands to them all day. They refused. He resists the proud.
Jesus says why some bring forth fruit when the Word gets spoken and get His gift of faith by grace through the Word. He speaks and there's Light. He wants everyone saved. They resisted. Pharao resisted Him himself.
Uncircumcized of hearts, you always resist the Spirit.
All Romans 9 says is that He did not have to save and elect that seed from the devil just because they are natural descendants from Abraham.
Esau. The reason is given elsewhere. He did not care. Hebrews 12. Dont be uninterested like Esau. God hates that. No way God foreknows that heart and then choses an uninterested guy to bring forth the Messiah simply because he is the oldest.
He was more interested in food just like Cain was just proud and interested in himself. Genesis said Cain could say no to satan. He did not want.
God wanted to save Jerusalem but they did not want.
Paul said he did it in ignorance and thats why God was merciful.
God says in the Bible why He resists ppl. Its not some mystery, like Augustine made up. That is the only thing I disagree with. Then it'd be random pick and choose from equally bad ppl. Of course noone is good but God alone. No good works save you. We don't start it or deserve it. He draws.
You cannot say that a 2 y o kid who comes to Jesus has the same evil heart as those pharisees. Hard road. Seed falls on it and the devil picks it away. That kid has not hardened his heart.
You are unwilling to admit that all humanity is proud and wicked.
You are unwilling to accept that no one seeks God, not even one.
You are unwilling to accept the large number of verses that I shared from scripture regarding predestination and being chosen.
Conclusion: You would rather be stubborn and wrong than believe what God's word plainly says. Your argument is not with me, it's with God.
 

Josiah

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Single predestination ("Election") - the divine election of the saved - is NOT the issue here. The issue is DOUBLE Predestination (the term the opening poster chose) and thus is about God electing most people to eternally fry in hell in accord with His heart's desire and because God does not love them and Christ did not die for them.

Substantiating SINGLE Predestination (not the topic here) does nothing to substantiate DOUBLE Predestination (it's just a diversion).
 

Lamb

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Single predestination ("Election") - the divine election of the saved - is NOT the issue here. The issue is DOUBLE Predestination (the term the opening poster chose) and thus is about God electing most people to eternally fry in hell in accord with His heart's desire and because God does not love them and Christ did not die for them.

Substantiating SINGLE Predestination (not the topic here) does nothing to substantiate DOUBLE Predestination (it's just a diversion).

So true! I keep wondering why the real topic isn't being addressed and this tangent has gone on for pages!
 

Josiah

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So true! I keep wondering why the real topic isn't being addressed and this tangent has gone on for pages!


.... we both know why.
 

Josiah

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Where in the bible does it say God damns people to hell? It does not. People invent this conjecture entirely from what they regard as "reason". The Calvinist front loads the doctrine of predestination and turns it into a who's in whos out a game. Lutheran sticks only to what the scriptures say. The scriptures always present predestination as a comfort. And of course, there is much here that is the paradox, unlike the Reformed who like to fiddle with scripture and make everything need and tidy and comfortable with the mind Lutherans recognize that there is the paradox in scripture. This is not self-contradictory, it is fact what I believe makes Lutheranism the only one that actually believes in Sola Scriptura and actually holding to the Soverignty of God (bowing before God - not telling God what He should have said and has to think).

XI. Election. The Epitome of Concord

1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing.

Affirmative Theses.

The Pure and True Doctrine concerning This Article.

1. To begin with [First of all], the distinction between praescientia et praedestinatio, that is, between God's foreknowledge and His eternal election, ought to be accurately observed.

2. For the foreknowledge of God is nothing else than that God knows all things before they happen, as it is written Dan. 2:28: There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

3. This foreknowledge extends alike over the godly and the wicked, but it is not the cause of evil, neither of sin, namely, of doing what is wrong (which originally arises from the devil and the wicked, perverse will of man), nor of their ruin [that men perish], for which they themselves are responsible [which they must ascribe to themselves]; but it only regulates it, and fixes a limit to it [how far it should progress and] how long it should last, and all this to the end that it should serve His elect for their salvation, notwithstanding that it is evil in itself.

4. The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18.

5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

8. Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway.

9. But it [the true judgment concerning predestination] must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, and that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11:32; Ezek. 18:23; 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2.

10. Whoever, now, is thus concerned about the revealed will of God, and proceeds according to the order which St. Paul has observed in the Epistle to the Romans, who first directs men to repentance, to knowledge of sins, to faith in Christ, to divine obedience, before he speaks of the mystery of the eternal election of God, to him this doctrine [concerning God's predestination] is useful and consolatory.

11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

12. Thus far a Christian should occupy himself [in meditation] with the article concerning the eternal election of God, as it has been revealed in God's Word, which presents to us Christ as the Book of Life, which He opens and reveals to us by the preaching of the holy Gospel, as it is written Rom. 8:30: Whom He did predestinate, them He also called. In Him we are to seek the eternal election of the Father, who has determined in His eternal divine counsel that He would save no one except those who know His Son Christ and truly believe on Him. Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe, whereby he attempts to weaken or entirely to remove from us the glorious consolation which we have in this salutary doctrine, namely, that we know [assuredly] that out of pure grace, without any merit of our own, we have been elected in Christ to eternal life, and that no one can pluck us out of His hand; as He has not only promised this gracious election with mere words, but has also certified it with an oath and sealed it with the holy Sacraments, which we can [ought to] call to mind in our most severe temptations, and take comfort in them, and therewith quench the fiery darts of the devil.

13. Besides, we should use the greatest diligence to live according to the will of God, and, as St. Peter admonishes, 2 Pet. 1:10, make our calling sure, and especially adhere to [not recede a finger's breadth from] the revealed Word: that can and will not fail us.

14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism].


Negative Theses

False Doctrine concerning This Article.

Accordingly, we believe and hold: When any teach the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God to eternal life in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot comfort themselves therewith, but are thereby led to despondency or despair, or the impenitent are strengthened in their wantonness, that such doctrine is treated [wickedly and erroneously] not according to the Word and will of God, but according to reason and the instigation of the cursed Satan. For, as the apostle testifies, Rom. 15:4, whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope. Therefore we reject the following errors:

1. As when it is taught that God is unwilling that all men repent and believe the Gospel.

2. Also, that when God calls us to Himself, He is not in earnest that all men should come to Him.

3. Also, that God is unwilling that every one should be saved, but that some, without regard to their sins, from the mere counsel, purpose, and will of God, are ordained to condemnation so that they cannot be saved.

4. Also, that not only the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but also in us there is a cause of God's election, on account of which God has elected us to everlasting life.

All these are blasphemous and dreadful erroneous doctrines, whereby all the comfort which they have in the holy Gospel and the use of the holy Sacraments is taken from Christians, and therefore should not be tolerated in the Church of God.

May Almighty God and the Father of our Lord Jesus grant the grace of His Holy Ghost that we all may be one in Him, and constantly abide in this Christian unity, which is well pleasing to Him! Amen.



http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html
 

Imalive

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You are unwilling to admit that all humanity is proud and wicked.
You are unwilling to accept that no one seeks God, not even one.
You are unwilling to accept the large number of verses that I shared from scripture regarding predestination and being chosen.
Conclusion: You would rather be stubborn and wrong than believe what God's word plainly says. Your argument is not with me, it's with God.

LOL
Do I there all that effort for.
 
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