Josiah said:
MennoSota, See post 158
I'm NOT disagreeing with single predestination (Lutherans taught this before Calvinists did, lol). I'm disagreeing with the extreme form of DOUBLE predestination you so passionately promote and force into nearly every conversation.....
And in this thread,I disagree with you that the sovereignty of God is subject to the "logic" of Calvinists; I disagree with the Calvinist point that God MUST agree with their 'logical" conjectures in order to be as smart as they. IMO, accepting the sovereignty of God means the humility to accept all God has said - without insisting that self is to correct God and connect the dots and make God make sense to Calvinists, or insisting God MUST answer all their questions (and so do in the way Calvinists insist is the logical answer). IMO, Luther was right when he said that HUMILITY is the foundation of all sound theology (it's also accepting God's sovereignty!) and that it's often wisest to let God be God and have the "last word" even though it may not seem "logical" to fallen, sinful, limited, largely ignorant man as in God is three yet one.... Jesus is 100% God but also 100% Man but 100%. IMO, those who accept the sovereignty of God are willing to admit God may well know about about this stuff than self does (no matter how smart self insists self is).
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LOL, you are confused, Josiah, and in your confusion you create
I didn't "create" anything.... we agree on the "election to justification" aspect (Lutherans taught this before Calvinists did, lol).... we disagree on something uber-Calvinists created out of their own "logic" -
DOUBLE predestination. I didn't "create" double predestination, I've not been interjecting and promoting it everywhere - that's been your recent obsession here at CH. The creating is entirely yours.
See post 158
If I'm "confused" about something I'm saying, then you are too since all I'm saying is SINGLE Predestination, what is often called "Election" (you know, what the Bible teaches and what pretty much all Christians before Calvin taught for 1500 + years), which you've been agreeing with; so if I'm wrong then so are you.
Sola Scriptura is rejected by these uber-Calvinist as the important part to their unique, new theology is THEIR OWN sense of what's "logical" and "smart" and thus God must agree with in order for God to be as logical and smart as they are; their OWN sense that God must answer their OWN questions in conformity with their OWN sense of "logic" or God just isn't being smart. What these Calvinists must do is EXACTLY what Arminianists must do (and to exactly the same extent): ignore a LOT of Scriptures or twist them 180 degrees. I think those best employing the Rule of Scripture in evaluating positions allow Scripture to be the rule - not what their own individual puny, fallen, sinful, limited, largely ignorant brain decides God must agree with in order to be "logical" and as smart as they are.
If you take but a moment to read your Bible
I find NOTHING about how God loves only a few..... how God desires most people to fry eternity in hell (and He gets off on that and it gloried Him).... how Jesus only died for SOME..... how God equally chooses some for hell and some for heaven..... What Arminius and Calvin did was simply displace Scripture with their own brain. Yeah, it is a pretty strong denial of the soverignty of God. And yes, is a bypassing of Sola Scriptura. In Calvinism and Arminianism, Scripture is not the norm but what each considers "logical," it's not Scriptural because each equally and to the same extent displaces Scripture and must twist 180 degrees a lot of Scriptures (such as "God wills all people to be saved...." ".... for God so loved the world..." and a enormous number of other verses Calvinist must declare are ... well..... not the case).
You and Josiah and others can attempt to skirt around the scriptures and make-up a fantasy philosophy of free-will, but it will never change God's declarative will as shared in the Bible. We fall at God’s mercy and pray that He would extend unmerited favor. He will be just and loving if He refuses to extend His favor and rightly condemns us for our sins. He will be just and loving if He places our sin upon the perfect lamb of God as our propitiation and thus declares us justified. In both cases God is love.
Neither Lamm or I are disagreeing with you at all on the issue of predestination for believers (SINGLE Predestination, the Doctrine of Election). This pretty much all Christians believed before Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century with their "logical" constructs. As you've pointed out, Scripture teaches election of the saved. Lutherans argued this before Calvinist did.
NEITHER of us are disagreeing with that..... VERY FEW here at CH are disagreeing with that.
It's
DOUBLE Predestination we (and all but some few uber-Calvinists) disagree with. Your "logical" construct, based on you answering your own questions solely in terms of what seems "logical" to your own puny, limited, sinful, fallen, largely ignorant brain.... in spite of it contradicting a LOT of very clear Scriptures. These uber-Calvinists and these Arminians do EXACTLY the same thing to EXACTLY the same degree.... both rejecting the Sovereignty of God by subjecting it to their own sense of "logic" and "smartness" and both equally and to the same degree bypassing Sola Scriptura by simply insisting MANY Scriptures are wrong until they are twisted 180 degrees so that they mean the opposite of what they say. BOTH need to accept the Sovereignty of God..... both need to get off their high horse and egoism and worship of their own brain.... both need to subject to God's inerrant Word..... and realize that fallen, sinful, limited, puny, largely ignorant man is NOT smarter than God and is not the Corrector or God or the Answer Man to which God must submit if God is going be as smart as they are. Sometimes Scripture doesn't connect the dots or answer all the questions.... that doesn't give every prideful dude the authority to designate self to do it, thus displacing God's sovereignty with their own.
Scripture does NOT state that God loves only a minority.... that Jesus died for only a few.... that God equally chooses some for heaven and others to eternally fry in hell cuz God gets off on that and feels gloried by people frying in hell.... We've read and heard Calvinists insist on their own LOGIC as the rule (rather than Scripture); we've read and heard them deny the Sovereignty of God and place their brain as what is sovereign; we've read and heard them construct their "logic" arguments and give their own answers to the own questions and insist God must agree or God isn't smart; we've read and heard them do EXACTLY as their equal counterparts, the Arminianists, do - have to twist a LOT of Scriptures 180 degrees to keep God from being wrong because the God wouldn't agree with them.
A blessed New Year to all....
- Josiah
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