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What does God's Sovereignty mean?
- Thread starter MennoSota
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meluckycharms
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For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:32 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.11.32.NIV
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
John 3:16*-17 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.3.16-17.NIV
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 2:3*-6 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/1ti.2.3-6.NIV
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/2pe.3.9.NIV
As I have stated earlier, I am not proposing universal salvation. Rather, if we hold to a Calvinist position of sovereignty that rejects the free will of man, there is a problem. The scriptures I have referenced that God wills that ALL are saved. ALL meaning EVERYONE OR THE WORLD. However, we all clearly know that this isnt thr case. This leads two options. Either:
1. God is a liar and doesn't really want everyone to be saved. (I fiercely reject)
2. Something is preventing God from accomplishing His will.
Calvinist will strongly reject premise 2. They must then struggle to reconcile the scriptures I have referenced to avoid premise 1. Many reformed theologians simply state that those scriptures were addresses to the elect and not intended to be universally normative. Calvinist then must apply that argument to James 5:19-20 which clearly says that the supposed "elect" can die to their sins and choose to "wonder from the truth".
For those proposing free will, they turn to premise 2. However, free will is a limitation that God imposed on Himself for a specific reason. Because God is sovereign, He could remove this limitation at any time and we would be right in doing so. Now, in all fairness, there are plenty of scriptures that seem to reject idea of free will. It would be dishonest of me if I did not admit that. Which is why I fall in a middle ground of "Soft-determinism"
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MennoSota
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Ezekiel 3:27
‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.
‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.
MennoSota
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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], What does God's Sovereignty mean in Matthew 23?
Matthew 23:1-13,15-39
[1]Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
[2]“The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses.
[3]So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.
[4]They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.
[5]“Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear robes with extra long tassels.
[6]And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues.
[7]They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’
[8]“Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters.
[9]And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.
[10]And don’t let anyone call you ‘Teacher,’ for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.
[11]The greatest among you must be a servant.
[12]But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
[13]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
[15]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
[16]“Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’
[17]Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred?
[18]And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding.
[19]How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
[20]When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it.
[21]And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it.
[22]And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
[23]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
[24]Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!
[25]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence!
[26]You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.
[27]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity.
[28]Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
[29]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed.
[30]Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’
[31]“But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
[32]Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started.
[33]Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
[34]“Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.
[35]As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.
[36]I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation.
[37]“O*Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
[38]And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.
[39]For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the lord!’”
Matthew 23:1-13,15-39
[1]Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
[2]“The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses.
[3]So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach.
[4]They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.
[5]“Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear robes with extra long tassels.
[6]And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues.
[7]They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’
[8]“Don’t let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters.
[9]And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.
[10]And don’t let anyone call you ‘Teacher,’ for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.
[11]The greatest among you must be a servant.
[12]But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
[13]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
[15]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!
[16]“Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’
[17]Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred?
[18]And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding.
[19]How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
[20]When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it.
[21]And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it.
[22]And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne.
[23]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
[24]Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!
[25]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence!
[26]You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.
[27]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity.
[28]Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
[29]“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed.
[30]Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’
[31]“But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
[32]Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started.
[33]Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
[34]“Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.
[35]As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.
[36]I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation.
[37]“O*Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
[38]And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.
[39]For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the lord!’”
meluckycharms
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I am confused. I was under the impression the the dead cannot "choose to listen". Could you please elaborate?
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MennoSota
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My use of Ezekiel 3 is a perfect example of how taking one section of one verse can lead a person to an entirely wrong belief. It is interesting how lucky bit the bait. Here's the context surrounding this verse.I could, but I am curious what MennoSota's response will be.
Ezekiel 3:24-27
[24]Then the Spirit came into me and set me on my feet. He spoke to me and said, “Go to your house and shut yourself in.
[25]There, son of man, you will be tied with ropes so you cannot go out among the people.
[26]And I will make your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth so that you will be speechless and unable to rebuke them, for they are rebels.
[27]But when I give you a message, I will loosen your tongue and let you speak. Then you will say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign lord says!’ Those who choose to listen will listen, but those who refuse will refuse, for they are rebels.
The context is that God is going to use Ezekiel to speak to the Exiles living in Babylon. The only time Ezekiel will not be mute is when God loosens his tongue and can declare the words of the Sovereign Lord. The exiles will either choose to listen to Ezekiel or refuse to listen. God calls the exiles, rebels.
So...this verse has nothing to do with salvation. Instead it has everything to do with whether rebellious exiles will listen to Ezekiel or not.
It's funny how desperate some Christians are to rule over God and demand that God only be their consultant rather than their Sovereign Lord. Like ancient Judah, Christians have a rebel heart that needs to repent and bow to the Sovereign King.
meluckycharms
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Once again, if man does not have free will and we are spiritually dead, how does the Israelites have a choice to listen or ignore. Couldn't God simply force them to listen?
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'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.' ~1John5:13~
Don't need a wishy-washy commentary, just a trustworthy KJV bible.
meluckycharms
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Because you probably know more than the collective team of theological scholars who dedicated their lives studying scripture? How's you ancient and Hebrew? These guys cut the KJV middle man and go to the actual manuscripts.
I apologize but your comments sounds more like an excuse for wilful ignorance and intelectual laziness.
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As I've posted a few times now, I don't think you and I disagree one bit on the sovereignty of God. I just don't separate that from the other qualities of God (including the one the NT so stresses, that God is love) and I disagree with some of your "logic"
additions, such as the double predestination you now seem singularly focused on promoting.
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Would a judge be loving if s/he pardons a known criminal without any restitution being made?
Where we seem to differ is regarding the concept of love.
I believe that God has many attributes. As a loving Judge, God condemns sinners. As a God who loves holiness, God required a holy sacrifice for sin. Either that sacrifice is unlimited/universal for all mankind or it is limited to those whom God elects to save.
As a judge, God is loving by executing his justice. As a Redeemer, God is loving by extending unmerited favor to those whom He chooses.
There is no problem with your mythical "logic", Josiah, because you are the one ignoring scripture in order to make your system fit. Whenever you struggle you just throw in the "mystery" card as though it's your trump card.
Josiah, you have a small God, who is not fully Sovereign in your "logic." You cannot reconcile how a loving God sends sinners to hell so you create a means by which the sinner is sovereign over God using free-will. You then postulate that free-will is God's chance to send people to hell. In your postulation a loving God could never send sinners to hell...unless...those sinners freely rejected God's unlimited/universal salvation. In your postulation it takes a double-sin choice before God is justified in casting sinners to hell. In your postulation God can't be just if He doesn't grant free-will. Sadly for you, there is no Biblical merit to your postulation.
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With all due respect, I think the reality is the opposite. That what you are proposing is a very small God..... and the relationship is you being sovereign over God who must submit to YOUR brain, YOUR 'logic', YOUR sense of what He may or may not do. IMO, part of accepting the sovereignty of God is letting God be God, letting God have the last word, accepting that God knows more about the things of God than you, that God's brain is bigger and better than YOURS, that God is not subject to what some fallen, limited, sinful, largely ignorant human labels "logical."
You've invented that; I never remotely said anything of the sort. I'm disagreeing that God predestines some to hell..... that God DESIRES most to fry in hell..... that God only loves the elect.... that Jesus came only for the few..... as you put it, God equally CHOOSES a few to go to heaven and most to fry eternally in hell. You can't find any Scriptures that support your DOUBLE predestination, it's PURELY a "logical construction" because God is subject to the sovereignty of you and your brain.... but it contradicts MUCH of Scripture. But Calvinists - EXACTLY as and to the EXACT same degree - just do precisely what Arminianists do: If they can't ignore all the Scriptures that flatly state their "logic" conjecture is false, they just twist those verses 180 degrees so that they state the exact opposite of what they state (which of course shows they reject the sovereignty of God.... God is subject to them, God can't disagree with them or God would not be as smart as they). It can be seem as rude and disrespectful but it certainly is undermining the sovereignty of God. Here's the point, my friend: I think God is very likely smarter than you. And if YOU can't make ALL Scripture "fit" with YOUR sense of "logic," well..... friend..... that's your problem. Not God's. Not every Christian who lived before Calvin and the great majority of them today. And yeah, it has a LOT to do with accepting the sovereignty of God. What I find..... ironic..... is the uber-Calvinists insisting on this double predestination thing mention the soverignty of God so much while denying it so passionately. IF they had any concept of the Sovereignty of God, they would humbly bow before it instead of insisting that self must make God as smart as they are.
Nope, I've never remotely claimed much a thing. I think you have our positions confused.
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There is no double predestination, Josiah.
Apart from God's grace, to what place would all humanity be sentenced, heaven or hell? Please answer this one question.
meluckycharms
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MennoSota, which God is smaller:
1. A God who must force His will to maintain His sovereignty?
2. A God who is able to maintain His sovereignty and have his will regardless of free will. (A God who can have His cake and eat it too)?
This is not an either/or issue. It's a both/and.
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That IS "Double Predestination." In fact, that is the most radical, extreme expression of it possible.
And it's what you have been promoting in a wide variety of threads, you keep coming back to this point. And since you keep bringing it up in this thread too (which you began it seems in order to promote this DOUBLE predestination), you obviously think that the sovereignty of God mandates double predestination (a VERY common point of uber-Calvinists) but actually, the opposite is true: God's sovereignty of means that God is NOT subject to the conjectures of a few post 16th Century men and their own sense of "logic" and own insistence of how smart they are; accepting the sovereignty of God would actually mean being humble before God and accepting that God need not submit to OUR thoughts but we to HIS Word (even if self can't "connect the dots" or answer all the questions of self).
MennoSota
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Bump. [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], please answer the question.
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Let's see what Jesus says...
Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Those who reject the good news will be damned. Sounds exactly what Lutherans believe.
Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Those who reject the good news will be damned. Sounds exactly what Lutherans believe.
MennoSota
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The fact that God chooses equals double predestination in your mind.
Josiah, if God does not choose, but others choose, how can God be Sovereign? Do you see your small God position yet?
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This presents God's Sovereign design. I would hope all people would believe this truth. Unfortunately, many do not.