What do Lutherans believe?

[Josiah]

A survey of Lutherans asking them, "What do you believe?", would be a good start. The data could give us the real answer.

No such survey exists, to my knowledge.

 

[Albion]

A survey of Lutherans asking them, "What do you believe?", would be a good start. The data could give us the real answer.

This one is widely respected. See the panel at the bottom of the page.

Sorry, muffed the link. See my post following. But of course this wont tell you what Lutherans believe on every possible issue. No survey can cover that.

 

[MennoSota]

It seems our friend wants documented objective proof of the thoughts of every one of the 37,500,000 Lutherans of the world on every topic - and then a comparison of each thought of each Lutheran on every point with Martin Luther (why the later matters, I have no clue). I have opted out of that discussion since it's impossible. Perhaps I'll begin a thread on what every Calvinist thinks about every topic and compare each and every thought with that of John Calvin - and see what documentation our friend has for that. Or maybe that would just be nonsensical.


We CAN discuss what Lutheranism teaches. The Book of Concord does a pretty good job of presenting that and several posters have put up links to that. And when presented with a specific doctrine, several posters have given good replies of what we were taught. None of the Lutherans here have a doctorate in theology but they are fairly knowledgeable.


As for MY credentials, besides studying the Small Catechism and Augsburg Confession, I've read all the Book of Concord. I also participated in my congregations' Adult Confirmation class, a 12 week study using Steven P. Mueller's book "Called by the Gospel, Called to Believe Teach and Confess (Wipf & Stock 2001) 575 pages - the book we used for that study. On my own with the pastor I also purchased and studied, "Christian Dogmatics" a 3 volume set (plus index) by Francis Pieper (CPH 1950) Vol 1 - 577 pages, Vol 2 - 556 pages, Vol 3 - 555 pages (the original work was published in 1917-1924 but mine is an English translation published in 1950). This is the set used to teach dogmatics to LCMS pastors. I also took a dogmatics class. Lamm, Tigger and Confessional Lutheran seem to also have a very good handle on Lutheran teachings. So, questions about specific doctrines can be addressed by several (rather knowledgable) Lutherans (not just one).



- Josiah

Surveys are helpful to show what people really believe, Josiah.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

No, it makes no sense to me at all. When Jesus first celebrates the Lord's Supper with him Luke 22:14-19 NIV says
4 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance.

I don't understand. Clearly you have a different opinion, but how does that mean my reply to you is unable to help you understand what Lutherans believe?

I'm sure you read http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical What part of the Real Presence view do you not understand? After reading also the Transubstantiation view, do you now understand how Real Presence and Transubstantiation are not the same thing?


Thank you.


- Josiah



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[MennoSota]

The findings didn’t surprise Hans Wiersma, a religion professor at Augsburg College in Minneapolis. Students increasingly are showing up for religion class with scarce knowledge of Christian history and tenets.

“Even if they were paying attention during Confirmation [classes], they’ve already forgotten it,” Wiersma said.
http://m.startribune.com/survey-fin...e-catholics-500-years-after-luther/442510603/

 

[Albion]

A survey of Lutherans asking them, "What do you believe?", would be a good start. The data could give us the real answer.

Here is a well respected one. See especially the panel at the bottom.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

 

[Josiah]

https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...tholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

I've never hear do "American Magazine." I was not surveyed by them for ANY beliefs much less all. Nor was Martin Luther. The survey doesn't say anything about what Lutherans specifically believe about anything - much less all Lutherans about everything.

 

[Albion]

You have to stretch truth to get to your position, Albion.

It is interesting that you should say that, considering that only about 3/4 of all the Christians in the world belong to churches that hold to that view. It is amazing that they should all be "stretching" in the same way, and also that its been "stretched" continuously since the first days of the Christian church. Meanwhile, your interpretation...not so much so.

 

[MennoSota]

Here is a well respected one. See especially the panel at the bottom.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

While being old, 17 years ago, the table at the end sharing the beliefs of various denominations on a few subjects was telling. It seems that synergism is quite the common view along most denominations.
Also, the surveys I linked present the idea that not many, Lutherans included, believe in Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura despite the concordia.

 

[MennoSota]

I've never hear do "American Magazine." I was not surveyed by them for ANY beliefs much less all. Nor was Martin Luther. The survey doesn't say anything about what Lutherans specifically believe about anything - much less all Lutherans about everything.

Indeed, yet the general evidence points to Lutherans being synergist's who reject Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.
Can we agree that a new Reformation is in order?

 

[Josiah]

http://m.startribune.com/survey-fin...e-catholics-500-years-after-luther/442510603/

It never once mentions Lutherans.




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[MennoSota]

It is interesting that you should say that, considering that only about 3/4 of all the Christians in the world belong to churches that hold to that view. It is amazing that they should all be "stretching" in the same way, and also that its been "stretched" continuously since the first days of the Christian church. Meanwhile, your interpretation...not so much so.

3/4 of the Christians have been taught falsely. Albion, a 1700 year old false statement is just as false as a 1 day old false statement.
The text and context of scripture give us the answer to this question.

 

[Josiah]

Indeed, yet the general evidence points to Lutherans being synergist's who reject Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

No. The survey you referenced doesn't mention Lutherans. It speaks of Protestants. If Lutherans are synergists because this (mysterious) survey CLAIMS the majority of the few hundred random people they phoned who claim to be "Protestants" seemed synergistic, then Calvinists are synergists according to the "reasoning" you are using.

3/4 of the Christians have been taught falsely

This thread is not about Christians or Protestant or unknown mysterious phone surveys of a few hundred people CLAIMING to be associated with some denomination. Nor is it about the quality of training (I gave you mine - you ignored it).


IF you insist on proving what every one of the 75,000,000 Lutherans think about every topic (and comparing every issue with what Luther thought on the same thing) then we all have to bow out - there is no such data. IF you are interested in what Lutheranism TEACHES, several here are willing to address that, if that matters to you.


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[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]







I don't understand. Clearly you have a different opinion, but how does that mean my reply to you is unable to help you understand what Lutherans believe?

I'm sure you read http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical What part of the Real Presence view do you not understand? After reading also the Transubstantiation view, do you now understand how Real Presence and Transubstantiation are not the same thing?


Thank you.


- Josiah



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No, I don't understand either. I read it over several times. It can't be bread and wine and also body and blood. It's not so much a mystery as it is a contradiction. You can't really have it both ways. That makes no sense at all

 

[MennoSota]

It never once mentions Lutherans.

I wasn't asked about anything - much less everything - from whoever did that survey (which never once mentions Lutherans)

What other denomination uses Augsburg as a title for its schools?
I understand this is upsetting to imagine how far the Lutheran church, as a whole, has fallen from grace. This is not a personal endictment on you or the other Lutherans who are adopted members of the body of Christ.

 

[Albion]

It seems our friend wants documented objective proof of the thoughts of every one of the 37,500,000 Lutherans of the world on every topic - and then a comparison of each thought of each Lutheran on every point with Martin Luther (why the later matters, I have no clue). I have opted out of that discussion since it's impossible.

I cannot blame you for that. That exercise is more a matter of proving a point than having the point matter.

 

[Albion]

No, I don't understand either. I read it over several times. It can't be bread and wine and also body and blood.

Of course it could be. And it could also be his body in a supernatural or spiritual sense, not literally. For 2000 years, the prevailing belief in the Christian church has been that the bread and wine are changed, so don't dismiss it too quickly.

 

[Josiah]

What other denomination

The mysterious phone surveys you referenced of a few hundred people CLAIMING to be associated with some denomination never even MENTION Lutherans. At all. So all these accusations you are making are baseless.

Again, NO ONE has any data as to what EVERY person Confirmed in a Lutheran church and regularly attending there believes about everything, sorry, but no such data exists. For any denomination. What you demand is nonsensical and impossible. And your references to phone surveys of a few people CLAIMING some affiliation does nothing since none of them even mentions Lutherans AT ALL - much less all of them.


If you want to learn what Lutheranism teaches, we can help.




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[MennoSota]

The mysterious phone surveys you referenced of a few hundred people CLAIMING to be associated with some denomination never even MENTION Lutherans. At all. So all these accusations you are making are baseless.

Again, NO ONE has any data as to what EVERY person Confirmed in a Lutheran church and regularly attending there believes about everything, sorry, but no such data exists. For any denomination. What you demand is nonsensical and impossible. And your references to phone surveys of a few people CLAIMING some affiliation does nothing since none of them even mentions Lutherans AT ALL - much less all of them.


If you want to learn what Lutheranism teaches, we can help.




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Start a thread about what the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod officially teaches. This thread is about what Lutherans believe. Clearly what is taught is not what is believed. Even Albions 17 year old survey points that out.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

No, I don't understand either. I read it over several times. It can't be bread and wine and also body and blood. It's not so much a mystery as it is a contradiction. You can't really have it both ways. That makes no sense at all

I don't follow you. Is it that you don't understand the "Real Presence" view OR you don't agree with it? Is the failure on my part to share the 3 major views OR that you do understand the view but don't find it to your liking? If I said "Bob believes the world is flat" you probably would understand the view but perhaps not agree with it. Two completely different issues, obviously. This thread is about what Lutheranism teaches. I don't regard it as likely a debate thread (but certainly the one about the 3 common Western views of the Eucharist is).


As to your "contrary to human logic" objection, frankly this is not a point ever raised in Lutheran theology. Do you believe that Jesus is BOTH God and man? 100% man and 100% God? IF you do, then your objection is destroyed - theology can be correct to embrace ALL Scripture says, even if that means two things are both fully true. Do you believe that God is Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit? IF so, then you are holding that multiple full realities can all be true. Logical? Probably not. Correct? Yup. God is not bound to physics as you understand it or to fallen human logic. Real Presence simply accepts what Jesus said and Paul penned. Exactly for the same reason we accept that Jesus is BOTH fully man and fully God even though logically that's not possible. Exactly for the same reason we accept that God is Father and God is Son and God is Holy Spirit yet there is one God. IF you hold that we can't have it "both ways" then we can't have a Savior who is both God and Man, we can't have a God who is TRI-une (having it THREE ways, lol).


Your objection that "it's a contradiction" is factually untrue. IF the view were "It's blood but not blood" that would be a contradiction, but that's not the "Real Presence" view. IF Christian theology said, "Jesus is divine but not divine" that would be a contradiction, but holding that He is BOTH human and divine" is not a contradiction - it's simply embracing two concurrent, co-existing truths.


Look, everyone knows that Zwingli rejected Real Presence. And today, a lot of "Evangelicals" have bought into his views on many matters. I don't expect Zwinglians to accept Real Presence but it is pretty easy to understand: "Is" = is, "Blood" = blood, "Body" = body, "Bread" = bread, "Wine" = wine. Not too hard to grasp, IMO. And for Christians who passionately believe that "both/and" IS the case where the Bible says, well... accepting both/and can be accepted as the case. No Christian had a problem with that for 1500 years until Zwingli.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah




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