Okay, let's talk about predestination

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Jesus answered the objection you're bringing. The objectors were Sadducees. They didn't believe in angels or spirits. They also didn't believe in the resurrection. "He is the God of the living" said Jesus, to make the point that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead in the way that the Sadducees thought of death. Your replies appear to have the same idea of death that the Sadducees did but I imagine, being a Christians, that you believe in the resurrection and probably in angels too. Do you believe in spirits?

Nope, you have gone down a bunny trail that has nothing to do with salvation or the miracle of God giving life to spiritually dead people.
Do you care to discuss predestination or run down your bunny trail?
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
How is it that the holy scriptures call Jesus "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and also "the saviour of the world" (John 1:29; 4:42)
Does it say "the whole world" in any of those verses?
God has taken away the sins of the elect and saved the elect. The elect are in the world, just as the damned are in the world.
Do you believe all the world is regenerated unto eternal life with God? That is what you are arguing for by interpreting those two verses as meaning the whole world.
What is it, MC? Is God too weak to save the whole world and a liar in those two verses, or does God save only the elect?
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
How is it that the holy scriptures call Jesus "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and also "the saviour of the world" (John 1:29; 4:42)
That's a way of saying that he did not come only for the Chosen People of the OT, the Hebrews. This point is widely recognized as part of the new covenant established by Jesus and also that the concept of the Messiah was bigger than even his own Apostles supposed. Remember that they still clung to the idea that the Messiah would establish an Earthly kingdom through which the Hebrews would at last gain revenge on all those peoples who had dominated them previously.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You're not in the lottery?
That's just silliness on your part.
You are trusting in your imagination rather than God's word.
I have no idea what your churches around you are teaching. I just know what the Bible teaches and it teaches that God chooses whomever He chooses. It teaches that God gives the gift of faith. It teaches that faith cannot exist if their are no works displaying the glory of God.
What it does not teach is universal atonement for sins. It does not teach a lottery. It teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. It teaches that every person given to Jesus will in no way be left behind. They will be redeemed by Jesus.

This country is originally calvinistic and ppl in those churches sit there for years wondering if God elected them or not. My family was Dutch reformed. But theyall got saved in other churches, 7th dayadventists, pentecostal, evangelical. I don't know what they get taught besides predestination, but not the simple gospel. One nephew got totally depressed there. Luckily his wife took him to an evangelical church.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I cut it to remove the untruthful attacks against the Catholic Church and Catholic people and to spare you from having to live with the words copied into a post that you can never amend yourself. I want to leave room for repentance. The cuts are intended as an act of kindness towards you. God willing, kindness will bear fruit in grace and goodness.
Yeah, acts of kindness my...eye. Glad Im wearing my high boots today.
Dont do me any favors, ok, and please dont chop up my posts. There are already too many re-quoted half-posts where ppl have chopped up what others say and try to setup strawmen or somehow alter ppls meanings.

I write what I write bc its what I intend to write and share with others. I really dont appreciate any self-appointed internet censor or thought police telling me what I should have said or meant to say.

If you think I said lies about your denomination, point out what you think they are, and we can discuss them like men. If I'm wrong, I'd apologize. If I'm right, God bless us in His Truth, see if you can admit it.

Cutting and manipulating other ppl's posts is not an act of kindness.
God willing, speaking the truth in love will prevail over many of the teachings of the RomanCatholic denomination. In fact, I KNOW it will.

Why dont you start by cutting your own post, where you said I made untruthful attacks against the RC denomination or ppl. Show us where, otherwise you are the 'untruthful' one.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
This country is originally calvinistic and ppl in those churches sit there for years wondering if God elected them or not. My family was Dutch reformed. But theyall got saved in other churches, 7th dayadventists, pentecostal, evangelical. I don't know what they get taught besides predestination, but not the simple gospel. One nephew got totally depressed there. Luckily his wife took him to an evangelical church.
Well the country was originally pagan, then Roman church/pagan, then followers of John Calvin, now agnostic/atheist, but all that has nothing to do with God declaring that he predestined people to be adopted into His family before the world began.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
5,045
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I want to remind everyone that if you have a problem with another poster you can report the offending post with your specific complaint about it. We will look at it as a group and deal with it.

As I said at the beginning let's be nice to each other and play fair please. Carry on
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Does it say "the whole world" in any of those verses?
God has taken away the sins of the elect and saved the elect. The elect are in the world, just as the damned are in the world.
Do you believe all the world is regenerated unto eternal life with God? That is what you are arguing for by interpreting those two verses as meaning the whole world.
What is it, MC? Is God too weak to save the whole world and a liar in those two verses, or does God save only the elect?

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

For all (1st Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
For every man (Hebrews 2:9).
For the world (John 3:16).
For the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2).
For the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
For false teachers (2nd Peter 2:1).
For many (Matthew 20:28).
For Israel (John 11:50-51).
For the Church (Ephesians 5:25).
For “me” (Galatians 2:20).
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

For all (1st Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
For every man (Hebrews 2:9).
For the world (John 3:16).
For the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2).
For the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
For false teachers (2nd Peter 2:1).
For many (Matthew 20:28).
For Israel (John 11:50-51).
For the Church (Ephesians 5:25).
For “me” (Galatians 2:20).

Not the first four. These verses have been discussed and you are incorrect.
The last six are correct because God has adopted the ungodly, the false teachers, the many, Israelites, the church and me...because they/we were predestined to be saved before the foundation of the world.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Well the country was originally pagan, then Roman church/pagan, then followers of John Calvin, now agnostic/atheist, but all that has nothing to do with God declaring that he predestined people to be adopted into His family before the world began.

You forgot the lost tribes, Zebulon.
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Not the first four. These verses have been discussed and you are incorrect.
The last six are correct because God has adopted the ungodly, the false teachers, the many, Israelites, the church and me...because they/we were predestined to be saved before the foundation of the world.

What? He has adopted the false teachers???
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Imalive said:
FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

For all (1st Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
For every man (Hebrews 2:9).
For the world (John 3:16).
For the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2).
For the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
For false teachers (2nd Peter 2:1).
For many (Matthew 20:28).
For Israel (John 11:50-51).
For the Church (Ephesians 5:25).
For “me” (Galatians 2:20).

Not the first four. These verses have been discussed and you are incorrect.
The last six are correct because God has adopted the ungodly, the false teachers, the many, Israelites, the church and me...because they/we were predestined to be saved before the foundation of the world.


IMO, Calvinists (exactly as Arminianists) must circumvent a LOT of Scriptures in order to defend their new, simple, "logical" but unbiblical theories. BOTH of these theories go too far and must ignore a LOT of what God said. This happens because both ask valid questions - but both appoint SELF to "answer" their own questions - based on their OWN sense of "logic" - and then accept or TWIST Scrptures to make God agree with them (keeping God from being illogical and wrong). I think if we simply see the arguments BOTH use against the other - we see the error so clearly in both.

IMO, the Calvinists have it right as to why some ARE saved, and the Arminianists have it (somewhat) right as to why some AREN'T saved - but each entirely blows it on the counterpoint. Both have lost all sense of mystery.... and instilled fear, despair, uncertainty and undermined Sola Gratia and Solus Christus.


See: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4669-Why-are-Some-Saved-and-Not-Others



:focus:



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Those false teachers arent saved.

But there were also false prophetss among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.t They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought themv—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conductw and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greedx these teachers will exploit youy with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned,z but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darknessb to be held for judgment;a 5 if he did not spare the ancient worldb when he brought the flood on its ungodly people,c but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;d 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes,e and made them an examplef of what is going to happen to the ungodly;g 7 and if he rescued Lot,h a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawlessi 8 (for that righteous man,j living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trialsk and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.l 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desirem of the fleshc and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings;n 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them fromd the Lord.o 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.p
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight.q They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.e r 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduces the unstable;t they are experts in greedu—an accursed brood!v 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaamw son of Bezer,f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.x
17 These people are springs without watery and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.z 18 For they mouth empty, boastful wordsa and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escapingb from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”c 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowingd our Lord and Savior Jesus Christe and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.f 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.g 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g h and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
IMO, Calvinists (exactly as Arminianists) must circumvent a LOT of Scriptures in order to defend their new, simple, "logical" but unbiblical theories. BOTH of these theories go too far and must ignore a LOT of what God said. This happens because both ask valid questions - but both appoint SELF to "answer" their own questions - based on their OWN sense of "logic" - and then accept or TWIST Scrptures to make God agree with them (keeping God from being illogical and wrong). I think if we simply see the arguments BOTH use against the other - we see the error so clearly in both.

IMO, the Calvinists have it right as to why some ARE saved, and the Arminianists have it (somewhat) right as to why some AREN'T saved - but each entirely blows it on the counterpoint. Both have lost all sense of mystery.... and instilled fear, despair, uncertainty and undermined Sola Gratia and Solus Christus.


See: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4669-Why-are-Some-Saved-and-Not-Others



:focus:



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah
Josiah, you ignored the scriptures I shared and brushed them off without a thought. You have taken the approach of wanting your cake and eating it too. That is impossible, just as your position is a synergist hybrid impossibility. You toss out the Sola's while trying to hang on to them at the same time. You are clinging to an impossibility while denying the two other views, which you try to merge.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Josiah, you ignored the scriptures I shared and brushed them off without a thought.


No. You have brushed aside all the verses that support Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, either ignoring them entirely or creatively "spinning" them so as to not expose the error of limiting grace and Christ. Witness your last example of that in post 189. And of course, you dismissal of "God desires ALL people to be saved" and "For God so loved the WORLD....." Of course, Arminians do the identical same thing with some of the verses you bring up. Same/same.

I AGREE when you are speaking of who is justified..... I disagree when you are speaking of who and why some are not. Just as I disagree with Arminians on who is justified but (to a little extent) who is not. But BOTH are radical arguments that go FAR beyond Scripture (which is why you ignore or twist so many Scriptures) and end up being so horribly wrong on the flip side, the counterpoint (for you, why some aren't saved). You BOTH see the error of the other - but won't see the IDENTICAL PROBLEM in your own argument and apologetic. Both simply not willing to accept Scripture "as is" (ALL of them!) and unwilling to accept Mystery. A lack of humility is at the root of both failures.

No, I think I'm far more monergistic than you are. It's just I'm not willing to limit grace and Christ the way you are.



See: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4669-Why-are-Some-Saved-and-Not-Others That's where your side topic is welcomed. This one is about predestination.



Now, back to the topic here



.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
No. You have brushed aside all the verses that support Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, either ignoring them entirely or creatively "spinning" them so as to not expose the error of limiting grace and Christ. Witness your last example of that in post 189. And of course, you dismissal of "God desires ALL people to be saved" and "For God so loved the WORLD....." Of course, Arminians do the identical same thing with some of the verses you bring up. Same/same.
Grace alone and Christ alone is perfectly in step with limited atonement. Both the verses you point to support limited atonement. You just don't wish to consider them in their context.
I AGREE when you are speaking of who is justified..... I disagree when you are speaking of who and why some are not.
Since you believe that Jesus atoned for all sins, you should also believe that all humans are justified by virtue of Christ's all sufficient atonement. But, you don't. More so, you don't see the conflict with your position.
Just as I disagree with Arminians on who is justified but (to a little extent) who is not. But BOTH are radical arguments that go FAR beyond Scripture (which is why you ignore or twist so many Scriptures) and end up being so horribly wrong on the flip side, the counterpoint (for you, why some aren't saved).
I give you this chance to make your biblical, verse by verse, presentation of your synergistic position.
You BOTH see the error of the other - but won't see the IDENTICAL PROBLEM in your own argument and apologetic. Both simply not willing to accept Scripture "as is" (ALL of them!) and unwilling to accept Mystery. A lack of humility is at the root of both failures.
Josiah, I think you're just being biblically lazy. You just go with your gut feeling even though your view contradicts itself and makes your point...pointless.
No, I think I'm far more monergistic than you are. It's just I'm not willing to limit grace and Christ the way you are.
I do not limit grace at all. I limit the atonement of Christ to the elect, which is what the Bible teaches. It is no wonder you are confused if you mix up grace and atonement.


See: http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...and-Not-Others That's where your side topic is welcomed. This one is about predestination.

Now, back to the topic here
Limited atonement is a perfect fit with predestination and election. They all support each other.
By the way, since you felt obligated to edit my Arminian creed OP, will you let me edit one of your posts as well? You should ask before you twist another person's post. Not cool.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What? He has adopted the false teachers???

Yep. Saul, renamed Paul, is a good example.
Im wondering if progress will ever be made in theses types of chatforums, bc alot of ppl are pretty well locked into their way of seeing things, and probably think they're trying to help others 'see the light'.

There's also the misunderstanding factor...the differences in trying to understand each others definition of certain words or phrases. I only pointed out these two posts↑ for the example re: false teachers ... One uses Paul before getting saved as an example, the other seems to be referring to false teachers like are on tv, youtube, or in certain denominations?

(I consider you both brother and sister in Christ, and I'm really grateful for you both, Very much, and was only using your posts as examples, not suggesting in any way either one isnt saved, or is a false teacher themself. I felt safe in using your example posts without fear of being misrepresented or retaliated against.)

But too often, some other ppl, when given the truth of the gospel of the grace of God, cling even more tenaciously to their denominational doctrines and practices, rather than listen to what the Word and the Spirit are actually saying.

Now, some posters are pretty clearly scripturally sound, (maybe there's some diffs of opinion on some secondary issues?), but others ... not so much.

How can we get to where we are honoring God together and helping others get saved?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Since you believe that Jesus atoned for all sins, you should also believe that all humans are justified by virtue of Christ's all sufficient atonement. But, you don't. More so, you don't see the conflict with your position.


The "conflict" is with your limitation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, and your persistent confusion of universal atonement with universalism. Let me try this yet again, still one more time: No, I don't limit God's love (nor make it conditional) and I don't limit Christ and His work. Unlike you, I accept Sola Gratia and Solus Christus - fully, not limited and restricted and conditional. It's just you then want to switch topics. No, Sola Gratia - Solus Christus does NOT equal justification (thus your constant accusation of universalism is absurd, you are dismissing Sola Fide), for justification the issue is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. Yes, God's love is unconditional and unlimited, Christ is unlimited and sufficient - I reject that small God and insufficient Christ. And that's EXACTLY WHY faith is always effectual - there is ALWAYS something real THERE for it to embrace/apprehend. Yes all 3 aspects must be there for justification in an individual's case.... but your premise that if faith is lacking, THEREFORE God is lacking, God is limited, God's love is conditional... Christ is lacking, Christ is limited.... that's just part of your problem.



Now, back to the topic (which is NOT Limited vs. Unlimited Atonement).....



- Josiah
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Im wondering if progress will ever be made in theses types of chatforums, bc alot of ppl are pretty well locked into their way of seeing things, and probably think they're trying to help others 'see the light'.

There's also the misunderstanding factor...the differences in trying to understand each others definition of certain words or phrases. I only pointed out these two posts↑ for the example re: false teachers ... One uses Paul before getting saved as an example, the other seems to be referring to false teachers like are on tv, youtube, or in certain denominations?

(I consider you both brother and sister in Christ, and I'm really grateful for you both, Very much, and was only using your posts as examples, not suggesting in any way either one isnt saved, or is a false teacher themself. I felt safe in using your example posts without fear of being misrepresented or retaliated against.)

But too often, some other ppl, when given the truth of the gospel of the grace of God, cling even more tenaciously to their denominational doctrines and practices, rather than listen to what the Word and the Spirit are actually saying.

Now, some posters are pretty clearly scripturally sound, (maybe there's some diffs of opinion on some secondary issues?), but others ... not so much.

How can we get to where we are honoring God together and helping others get saved?
Shut down the discussion board!?
 
Top Bottom