Okay, let's talk about predestination

[MennoSota]

You wrote "He does not choose people at random." so what basis does God use to decide who he chooses to give saving faith to?

He never tells us. That's why God is Sovereign. His will is whatever He decides and he doesn't have to tell us why.
Do you hate God for being that way and placing you below Him in a subservient role?

 

[MennoSota]

Faith comes by hearing of His Word. If the soil is no good you get no fruit.

Dead people can't hear.

 

[Albion]

You wrote "He does not choose people at random." so what basis does God use to decide who he chooses to give saving faith to?

We are not given to know everything about God's decision-making. He chooses according to his own purposes. THAT he does so choose, however, we know from Scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

He never tells us. That's why God is Sovereign. His will is whatever He decides and he doesn't have to tell us why.

Then it could be "random"?

 

[Albion]

If you think that God just wound up the universe like a top and lets it run on its own, you might say that. That's the Deist's view of things. We who are guided by the Holy Scriptures know that God doesn't work like that.

 

[Imalive]

He never tells us. That's why God is Sovereign. His will is whatever He decides and he doesn't have to tell us why.
Do you hate God for being that way and placing you below Him in a subservient role?

It's in the Bible. They didn't want Him in John 6. Bad soil.
He wants a bride for His Son, not one who doesnt love Him or is proud or lukewarm or uninterested like Esau. I think He made people and the ones that became bad is because of listening to the devil and loving the world. Demas left cause he loved the world. There's always a reason given. He rejects the proud and gives grace to the humble. If Judas had died in the whomb I think he had gone to heaven, since Jesus said it would have been better for him.
Adam and Eve sinned, became one w the devil. One son became righteous, the other was only interested in himself.

 

[Imalive]

Dead people can't hear.

He preached to them.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you think that God just wound up the universe like a top and lets it run on its own, you might say that. That's the Deist's view of things. We who are guided by the Holy Scriptures know that God doesn't work like that.

I think that "random" may be a human concept that is born of our incomplete knowledge of things. It may be that God is incapable of "random" because random is an illusion belonging to finite created beings - such as us - who just do not know what will happen if we throw a dice or something similar that we think of as random.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Dead people can't hear.

Lazarus was dead and he heard Jesus call him.

 

[MennoSota]

Then it could be "random"?

Who knows. Keep asking God and see if he condescends to answer you.

 

[MennoSota]

Lazarus was dead and he heard Jesus call him.

Contrare. God made him alive and then called him out of the tomb.

 

[Imalive]

Who knows. Keep asking God and see if he condescends to answer you.

Why not? He only doesn't answer calvinists because they may not ask questions from their church lol.

 

[Josiah]

The following is from a former uber-Calvinist. It's on the issue of the uber-Calvinist modern view of LIMITED atonement. It's not related to the issue of the thread but MennoSota keeps bringing it into this. I offer this as an insight....

Practical implications of limited atonement


I at one time believed in the Calvinistic doctrine of limited atonement. This doctrine states that Christ died solely for his elect. Christ offers the gospel to all yet did not actually die for all. I have struggled through this doctrine for many years now. Despite the fact that this doctrine is exegetically unfounded, it has many negative practical implications.

First of all, with this doctrine one can never be sure if Christ actually died for him. I, for example, have doubted my election at times. How do I know if I am elect? And if I am not elect then Christ did not die for me! Ultimately then, the doctrine pushes me into looking at the eternal decree of God for my assurance. How can I tell if I am among the elect? The answer usually given is that I know by my faith. However, there is true and false faith, and I must test myself to see whether or not my faith is real faith. According to a reformed exegesis of Hebrews chapter 6, a false faith can still cause one to repent, taste the heavenly gift and share in the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, I must look at the quality of my works and see if they are Spirit wrought. My assurance is in my inner transformation, not in the gospel. There is simply no way around it; I ultimately never know if Christ actually died for me except for the amount and quality of my good works. I know that when I look inward, as when reading Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections, I see my sin and simply doubt my faith.

A Calvinist will object that they believe in a "free offer of the gospel" because they are not hyper Calvinists. Thus, I can trust in this universal offer. However, I must ask: Is this really a universal offer? How can God offer something he has not actually paid for? Can he really tell me I can accept the death of Christ while it in fact has never been paid for me?

The other hard issue to deal with is in Evangelism. As a Calvinist I could not freely offer the death of Christ to unbelievers. I would make my way around it by saying "believe on Christ's death because he has died for believers". While this is true I could never look at an unbeliever and say "trust in Christ's work accomplished on your behalf!" If I were to see my brother in despair I cannot look them in the eyes and say "do not despair! His righteousness is yours! He has fulfilled the law and its curse on your behalf!" However, as an adherent of the Book of Concord I can proclaim to all men "believe upon Christ who has paid the penalty for your sin!"

.

Jordan Cooper from justandsinner.blogspot.com/2010/01

 

[MennoSota]

It's in the Bible. They didn't want Him in John 6. Bad soil.
He wants a bride for His Son, not one who doesnt love Him or is proud or lukewarm or uninterested like Esau. I think He made people and the ones that became bad is because of listening to the devil and loving the world. Demas left cause he loved the world. There's always a reason given. He rejects the proud and gives grace to the humble. If Judas had died in the whomb I think he had gone to heaven, since Jesus said it would have been better for him.
Adam and Eve sinned, became one w the devil. One son became righteous, the other was only interested in himself.

You preach works righteousness, which is not what the Bible preaches.
John 6 supports limited atonement.
John 6:36-39,63-65
[36]But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.
[37]However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.
[38]For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.
[39]And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
[63]The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
[64]But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
[65]Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

 

[MennoSota]

He preached to them.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Good point. Here's the full text. God can certainly do what he wills.
John 5:21,24-30
[21]For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants.
[24]“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
[25]“And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.
[26]The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son.
[27]And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.
[28]Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
[29]and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
[30]I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

 

[MennoSota]

You make an interesting point. If God saves and if human beings are not involved by anything they can do, say, or think while they are "dead in their tresspasses and sins" and if it is only after they are saved (after they are chosen by God and redeemed by God and effectually called by God and promised eternal life by God) that they can be pleasing to God in any way and if before they were saved nothing they did, said, or thought was anything but wicked and sinful then even if a saviour is needed for the elect, called, and saved no saviour is available or ultimately beneficial for anybody not elect, called, and saved. For anybody not among the elect Jesus Christ is not their saviour no matter what they may do, say, or think.

Finally you get it.

Humans are damned by their innate sinfulness. They have no hope, apart from God's gracious choice.
Humans benefit from God's kindness and patience in that He withholds His judgment and stays his hand from immediately slaying. Adam and Eve were the first to experience this patience. Cain, while killing his brother, still had his judgment stayed for a time.
There is no Savior for those who are perishing. This is why Solomon rightly admonishes people to eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. Without hope of a Savior, this world's pleasure is all you get.
When we preach reconciliation to the world we know that only the elect will hear the call and be drawn to God by God's grace. The rest will perish. This is a sad reality, which we must entrust to God's Sovereign will.

 

[Imalive]

You preach works righteousness, which is not what the Bible preaches.
John 6 supports limited atonement.
John 6:36-39,63-65
[36]But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.
[37]However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.
[38]For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.
[39]And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
[63]The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
[64]But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
[65]Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

Faith without works is dead. Then why give the parable of the soil? Or say that their hearts were hard? Or that He gives grace to the humble? He wanted to gather Jerusalems kids. You didn't want. All day long I stretched out My arms. If these people were willing to follow Him and then He'd say: nope sorry you're not in the lottery, then it would be random.
And thats what they teach ppl in these black socks churches we call em. You never know if you're elected or not. Maybe God hates you and they die in fear while they have served Him their whole life or they leave faith altogether. That's why I hate that election teaching and why the evangelicals came to help them with the sinners prayer and God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.
My uncle was his whole life in such a church. He was an elder. Didnt even know if he was saved. Always depressed, beh beh beh. He couldnt even make a joke. My mom took him to a good evangelical service and he gave his heart to the Lord when he was in his eighties.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Contrare. God made him alive and then called him out of the tomb.

Jesus answered the objection you're bringing. The objectors were Sadducees. They didn't believe in angels or spirits. They also didn't believe in the resurrection. "He is the God of the living" said Jesus, to make the point that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead in the way that the Sadducees thought of death. Your replies appear to have the same idea of death that the Sadducees did but I imagine, being a Christians, that you believe in the resurrection and probably in angels too. Do you believe in spirits?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Finally you get it.

Humans are damned by their innate sinfulness. They have no hope, apart from God's gracious choice.
Humans benefit from God's kindness and patience in that He withholds His judgment and stays his hand from immediately slaying. Adam and Eve were the first to experience this patience. Cain, while killing his brother, still had his judgment stayed for a time.
There is no Savior for those who are perishing. This is why Solomon rightly admonishes people to eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. Without hope of a Savior, this world's pleasure is all you get.
When we preach reconciliation to the world we know that only the elect will hear the call and be drawn to God by God's grace. The rest will perish. This is a sad reality, which we must entrust to God's Sovereign will.

How is it that the holy scriptures call Jesus "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and also "the saviour of the world" (John 1:29; 4:42)

 

[MennoSota]

Faith without works is dead. Then why give the parable of the soil? Or say that their hearts were hard? Or that He gives grace to the humble? He wanted to gather Jerusalems kids. You didn't want. All day long I stretched out My arms. If these people were willing to follow Him and then He'd say: nope sorry you're not in the lottery, then it would be random.
And thats what they teach ppl in these black socks churches we call em. You never know if you're elected or not. Maybe God hates you and they die in fear while they have served Him their whole life or they leave faith altogether. That's why I hate that election teaching and why the evangelicals came to help them with the sinners prayer and God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.
My uncle was his whole life in such a church. He was an elder. Didnt even know if he was saved. Always depressed, beh beh beh. He couldnt even make a joke. My mom took him to a good evangelical service and he gave his heart to the Lord when he was in his eighties.

You're not in the lottery?
That's just silliness on your part.
You are trusting in your imagination rather than God's word.
I have no idea what your churches around you are teaching. I just know what the Bible teaches and it teaches that God chooses whomever He chooses. It teaches that God gives the gift of faith. It teaches that faith cannot exist if their are no works displaying the glory of God.
What it does not teach is universal atonement for sins. It does not teach a lottery. It teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. It teaches that every person given to Jesus will in no way be left behind. They will be redeemed by Jesus.