Okay, let's talk about predestination

[user1234]

(sorry for a bit of a sidetrack...but re: predestination, etc....)
Why would anyone take seriously, or like or approve of anything that comes from staunch practioners/defenders of the RomenCatholic denomination? They have so many teachings that go against Gods way of salvation, they basically block the way of salvation, and if some of the doctrines are taken seriously and followed to the fullest, they not only are keeping ppl from heaven, but are actually sending them down the other direction to hell.
Jesus hates their doctrine.
And they teach and or approve of some really abominable practices in varying forms, from in large cathedrals to small meetings in places all around the world, attaching Jesus' name to alot of it under the banner of the RomanCatholic denomination.
(Not putting all the blame on those in the pews being deceived), but those that teach and practice and promote those things, how can we accept let alone approve of them or take anything they say seriously? Have we lost all discernment...or do we have blindfolds on, either deliberately or by being deceived, too? Have we forgotten our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

 

[Josiah]

By accepting universal atonement, you must reject election

Wrong. And no I don't.

Universal atonement accepts/embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. I accept that. UniversalISM rejects/repudiates Sola Fide. I don't. Thus I accept Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. And I accept (do not reject) Sola Fide. I reject your premise that if faith is lack, ERGO it is mandated that God's grace and Savior are also missing - your premise is absurd and unbiblical.


Yes, I accept the biblical view of Election but I reject the radical, Greek, "double predestination" theory of some Calvinists which was condemned at the Ecumenical Council of Orange.


Your very odd attempt to equate universal atonement with universalism is, well, odd, unbiblical, and of course undermines the Protestant concept of justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It is absurd to insist that if one doesn't have faith, ergo there is no grace or Savior. And of course, it creates "a terror of the conscience" as many (including Luther) noted: it means that you have no assurance, no reason to believe that God's love is unconditional (as the Bible says it is) or that Jesus is your Savior. The rest of us KNOW that God is merciful and gracious to us, that Jesus is our Savior ( OF ME) because His grace/mercy and Savior is for all. Faith then apprehends that and applies it to me. In this Greek idea of some Calvinists, faith is likely ineffectual because God's grace/mercy and Savior is only for SOME and there's no way to know if I'm one of those "some." It's not only an absurd and unbiblical idea - but it's a horrible one. For all these reasons, it is rejected by all but some radical, extreme Calvinists and was condemned at an Ecumenical Council.

The monergist view on limited (particular) atonement versus universal atonement.
Matthew 1:21. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
*John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.... I am the good shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.... But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
*Mark 10:45. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
*Romans 5:18-19. “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
*The inconsistent universalist and particular redemptionist both limit Christ’s death in some manner. The Arminian limits the power of Christ’s death to save, while the Calvinist limits the design of it.66 The Calvinist teaches that Christ’s death is of infinite value to God because Christ was the divine-human mediator. Christ’s death was sufficient to save every man, woman and child who ever lived. In fact, it was sufficient to save everyone on a thousand planets, if God so desired. What limits Christ’s death is that by God’s design and purpose Jesus died only for the elect, those chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. His death is directed to and actually saves particular persons; not an indefinite mass of people or a hypothetical humanity. Christ offered a definite atonement. It is personal. He knows His own by name (Jn. 10:14).
**** The Arminian believes that Christ’s death guarantees the actual salvation of not even one person. The Arminian believes in a very limited atonement: an atonement that is weak and impotent to save. God is helpless and waits for the sinner to save himself by choosing Christ. The Father’s plan to save humanity has been defeated, because almost all of mankind has gone to hell. Christ shed His blood and suffered horrible tortures in vain for those who throughout eternity scorn and reject Him. The Holy Spirit has been overpowered and successfully resisted by the vast majority of people throughout history. If Arminianism is true, then God’s plan of redemption is a colossal failure. God simply could not get the job done. Can a view which presents Christ’s death as a failure be true? Should we believe in a theological system which presents God as mere puppet of man, as incompetent in achieving His own purpose? Arminianism presents a false picture of God. It is man-centered, a deadly hybrid between biblical Protestantism and humanism.

You are inventing a false contrast. Monergism and Synergism are incompatable but neither is the issue here. This has nothing to do with your premise that if faith is lacking in a person, ERGO God is not gracious and Jesus is not the Savior, you are trying to suggest that embracing universal atonement is embracing universalism.

And you are making a common uber-Calvinist mistake: Of simply casting everyone else as an Arminianist. It's just not true. Lutherans (etc.) are just as monergistic and just as anti-Arminianist as any Calvinist, but we accept Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (it seems MORE than those uber-Calvinists) and we don't think such is destroyed if a person lacks faith, it simply means such is not applied to that person. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus is universally true, Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide applies to the elect for the elect are given faith which apprehends the grace and Savior.




- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Why would anyone take seriously, or like or approve of anything that comes from staunch practitioners/defenders of the ... Catholic [Church]? ...

Because what I tell you about the Catholic Church is factual and accurate.

 

[Imalive]

Emasculate.. what on earth?
Here, Jesus 'emasculates' Himself:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

 

[Albion]

Wrong. And no I don't.



Your very odd attempt to equate universal atonement with universalism is, well, odd, unbiblical, and of course undermines the Protestant concept of justification....

All right, but it seemed to me that he simply doesn't know what the terms mean.

 

[Josiah]

.

"Predestination" (Lutherans call it "The Mystery of Election") is pure Gospel.....


The Mystery of Election...



Definitions


MONERGISM. Lutherans and Calvinists both are monergists. This is the affirmation that justification (narrow) is God's miracle and gift. We believe that Jesus IS THE Savior, which means it's Jesus that saves, Jesus does it, if it has to do with salvation Jesus' got it. Thus is it not a matter of how many "hoops" we gotta jump through and how well we do it - so that we create, earn, merit and deserve salvation (and thus Jesus is not the Savior).

JUSTIFICATION. Lutherans and Calvinists agree here, too. Justification is essentially what "Evangelicals" mean by "Born again." It means a changed relationship with God and the forgiveness of our sin. We hold to the Protestant view of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as one inseparable, united view): John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not parish but has everlasting life (justification). It's because of the unconditional love and mercy of God, which gave to us the God/man Jesus who IS the Savior in His life, death and resurrection, which we apprehend via the divine gift of faith (trust/reliance). Alone. All the divine miracle of God, the divine GIFT of God.

ELECTION The Gospel that God loved us, was merciful to us, and chose us as His own before we did a thing, before we were even born (or even conceived). It flows from a firm embrace of monergism. It is NOT to be confused (at all) with the Greek philosophy of "fate" nor is it to be applied anywhere except, solely, in justification (narrow). It is also not to be confused with foreknowledge (the affirmation that God knows all - even beforehand) for it's not simply that God KNOWS who will justified but that God WORKS this miracle and gift and thus they will be justified. They aren't justified because God knew they would be, God knows they will be because He has chosen to perform his miracle and grant this pure gift. For Lutherans, this is not law and should not be twisted upside down and inside out to convert Gospel into Law, that is to say that God "gets off" on seeing billions fry forever in hell and thus chooses some before time to glory Him by suffering the eternal flames of hell. Election is Gospel, always meant to comfort and assure - never to terrorize. Lutherans do not claim to know why some are not justified/saved - but we do NOT believe it is because God 'gets off' on frying people and seeing them suffer. This is the GOSPEL ('good news') that this Sola Gratia in view of Solus Christus has always been (and will always be) directed to me. Not because self has earned it but because God extends it. Yes, there is mystery here.... but it's wonderful if we embrace this as it is presented: as Gospel to comfort CHRISTIANS.

UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT. All but a few uber-Calvinists accept this (and it was proclaimed at the Ecumenical Council of Orange). This teaches that God's love is unconditional (NOT conditional upon being among the "Elect"), "For God so loved the world..." And that Jesus died for all sins. It embraces Sola Gratia and Solus Christus in justification. BECAUSE God loves ALL and Jesus' work is for ALL we therefore know it's for us (since it is universal, with no exceptions). Of course, Sola Gratia - Solus Christus APART FROM SOLA FIDE does not result in justification (justification results from all 3 aspects of it: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE), justification requires the divine gift of faith which God gives to His Elect. However the divine gift of faith apprehends reality because the Sola Gratia - Solus Christus IS THERE for all. One of the many problems of those who reject this is that faith may or may not be apprehending something (since it may not be for THEM) and there's no way to know if they are justified for not.

UNIVERSALISM This is the rejection and repudiation of the "Sola Fide" part of justification, arguing that one is justified REGARDLESS of whether they have the divine gift of faith or not. It insists we are justified via Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, rejecting the Sola Fide part. Yes, it assumes universal atonement but then repudiates Sola Fide, which orthodox, traditional Christian theology does not do (since Scripture and the Councils does not permit).




A Hopefully Helpful ILLUSTRATION-


Next February, God willing, my wife and I will be joined by a son. So far, I've only seen him in admittedly hard to distinguish photos of him still in the womb - but that's all I know about him (oh, he is a boy!). We chose to not to any of the texts of possible birth issues (doesn't matter, we aren't going to abort him). We don't know if he'll be handsome or ugly, smart or dumb, good or bad. And so far, all he's done is cost a lot of money, kicked his mother a lot, and made her physically ill (she's better now, however). He hasn't done any good work to merit the life he obviously has (he does all kinds of gymnastics in there; I can now feel it).

And we are already "nesting" (as my wife puts it). We bought a new car (a Honda Pilot SUV), repainted the nursery and already have it all decorated, we have the car seat and rocker and dresser/changing table and LOTS of other things already in the nursery and ready to go (although it's still some months before his scheduled entrance). And there's LOTS of clothes and other things - even before the 3 upcoming baby showers - some from us, most from the two sets of soon-to-be grandparents (a first grandchild for them both). We've both arranged for leave with our employers

And we already LOVE that little boy to pieces. We pray for him constantly (together and separately). My wife is already singing to him (including "Jesus songs"). I suspect only the parents out there know what I'm talking about.... Crazy, absolutely crazy, how much you can be in love (and all that means) with one you've never seen and has done absolutely nothing whatsoever to earn all this (quite the opposite - he's cost us a lot).

And years from now.... perhaps because of the brokenness of this world and of sin..... he may wander to a place.... and wonder about Mom and Dad..... wonder about our love and dedication to him.... wonder if our love has disappeared because he isn't earning it..... and we can remind him of this time when all he did was kick his mother, make her sick and cost us a bunch of time, effort and money - and we loved him: more than we can convey, more than we can understand.... not because of what he did but because of who he is: our son, our heart.

.... THAT is essentially the "Mystery of Election" from the Lutheran perspective....




Some Scriptures -

Ephesians 1:3-11

Romans 8:28-30

Romans 8:33

Romans 9:15-16

1 Thessalonians 1:4

2 Thessalonians 2:13

Psalm 65:4


OBVIOUSLY there is much mystery here, but Lutherans prefer to leave mystery as mystery... and to leave gospel as gospel.



Links for more information -
A more formal and confessional look from a Lutheran seminary professor of Theology: http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/archives/scaer2.htm
Calvinist Predestination vs. Lutheran Predestination http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/10/calvinist-predestination-vs-lutheran-predestination/




Soli DEO Gloria!


- Josiah





.

 

[user1234]

Because what I tell you about the Catholic Church is factual and accurate.

Well, since you sliced a portion from my post (another example of THAT, eh?)
And you either didnt understand the question (or chose not to)
And you just now seem to have set yourself up as an official spokesperson for the RomanCatholic denomination.... Why, considering all the false doctrines and practices that come from that denomination, should we take anything else that their spokesppl say about predestination or other things from Gods Word seriously?
What you say about the RC denomination​ may or may not be factual, sooo what's the point of that? If anything, that just confirms we SHOULDNT take anything else the RC spokesppl say seriously either, imo, doesnt it?

 

[Imalive]

Sometimes I think the Catholics are right: Protestants left unsupervised just create a mess and don’t clean up after themselves.

http://kirbyhopper.com/the-monster-god-of-calvinism/

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, since you sliced a portion from my post (another example of THAT, eh?)
...

I cut it to remove the untruthful attacks against the Catholic Church and Catholic people and to spare you from having to live with the words copied into a post that you can never amend yourself. I want to leave room for repentance. The cuts are intended as an act of kindness towards you. God willing, kindness will bear fruit in grace and goodness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes I think the Catholics are right: Protestants left unsupervised just create a mess and don’t clean up after themselves.

Many protestants are kindly good people seeking to serve God truthfully and well.

 

[Albion]

Sometimes I think the Catholics are right: Protestants left unsupervised just create a mess and don’t clean up after themselves.

Would it be possible not to characterize all Protestants as X just because one guy or some group out of hundreds of millions of Protestants in the world says something weird or wrong??

For some reason, this is the never-ending routine that is used against Protestants by people who, for instance, would never think of doing the same with all women, all Netherlanders, all blondes, all vegetarians, all Catholics, all Pentecostals, all athletes, etc.

 

[Imalive]

Would it be possible not to characterize all Protestants as X just because one guy or some group out of hundreds of millions of Protestants in the world says something weird or wrong??

For some reason, this is the never-ending routine that is used against Protestants by people who, for instance, would never think of doing the same with all women, all Netherlanders, all blondes, all vegetarians, all Catholics, all Pentecostals, all athletes, etc.

That guy from the article said that. I thought it was rather funny.

 

[Josiah]

Sometimes I think the Catholics are right: Protestants left unsupervised just create a mess and don’t clean up after themselves.

The radical view of some uber-Calvinists on "double predestination" never caught on among Protestants (or even Calvinists), so while it can be said was "never corrected" by Protestantism, it also was never commonly embraced by them. TULIP is a radical idea (some Calvinists insist Calvin himself never taught that at all!), a concept a FEW Calvinist embrace - but it's a very tiny minority of Protestants (and still declining).

As for Catholicism, it has no allowance for correction. Correction is disallowed. In terms to official/formal doctrine and morality, the RC denomination itself insists that there is ONE that is infallible/unaccountable... the Mouth of God.... when IT speaks ergo God speaks.... IT can no more need correction that God since they speak identically.... and the ONE that the RCC insists is such is.... well...... you know. The RCC may admit some "further explanation" is needed (and it itself alone can do that), and it will admit that in matters NOT related to official/formal doctrine and morality it can err (for example in its cover up of monsters molesting innocent Catholic boys) but when it comes to official/formal things - when IT speaks, GOD is. See CCC 87, etc., etc., etc. So, no, Catholicism does not "clean up" its mistakes.... it just denies that it is capable of mistakes (in what it itself individually declares to be official doctrine and morality). I'll admit that rubric (also seen in the LDS and also in every "cult" known to me) LOOKS less "messy" but that's not because there's more truth there only that self declaring self to be unaccountable stops conversation and renders correction IMPOSSIBLE.

"Predestination" (Lutherans call it "The Mystery of Election") is pure Gospel.....


The Mystery of Election...



Definitions


MONERGISM. Lutherans and Calvinists both are monergists. This is the affirmation that justification (narrow) is God's miracle and gift. We believe that Jesus IS THE Savior, which means it's Jesus that saves, Jesus does it, if it has to do with salvation Jesus' got it. Thus is it not a matter of how many "hoops" we gotta jump through and how well we do it - so that we create, earn, merit and deserve salvation (and thus Jesus is not the Savior).

JUSTIFICATION. Lutherans and Calvinists agree here, too. Justification is essentially what "Evangelicals" mean by "Born again." It means a changed relationship with God and the forgiveness of our sin. We hold to the Protestant view of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as one inseparable, united view): John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not parish but has everlasting life (justification). It's because of the unconditional love and mercy of God, which gave to us the God/man Jesus who IS the Savior in His life, death and resurrection, which we apprehend via the divine gift of faith (trust/reliance). Alone. All the divine miracle of God, the divine GIFT of God.

ELECTION The Gospel that God loved us, was merciful to us, and chose us as His own before we did a thing, before we were even born (or even conceived). It flows from a firm embrace of monergism. It is NOT to be confused (at all) with the Greek philosophy of "fate" nor is it to be applied anywhere except, solely, in justification (narrow). It is also not to be confused with foreknowledge (the affirmation that God knows all - even beforehand) for it's not simply that God KNOWS who will justified but that God WORKS this miracle and gift and thus they will be justified. They aren't justified because God knew they would be, God knows they will be because He has chosen to perform his miracle and grant this pure gift. For Lutherans, this is not law and should not be twisted upside down and inside out to convert Gospel into Law, that is to say that God "gets off" on seeing billions fry forever in hell and thus chooses some before time to glory Him by suffering the eternal flames of hell. Election is Gospel, always meant to comfort and assure - never to terrorize. Lutherans do not claim to know why some are not justified/saved - but we do NOT believe it is because God 'gets off' on frying people and seeing them suffer. This is the GOSPEL ('good news') that this Sola Gratia in view of Solus Christus has always been (and will always be) directed to me. Not because self has earned it but because God extends it. Yes, there is mystery here.... but it's wonderful if we embrace this as it is presented: as Gospel to comfort CHRISTIANS.

UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT. All but a few uber-Calvinists accept this (and it was proclaimed at the Ecumenical Council of Orange). This teaches that God's love is unconditional (NOT conditional upon being among the "Elect"), "For God so loved the world..." And that Jesus died for all sins. It embraces Sola Gratia and Solus Christus in justification. BECAUSE God loves ALL and Jesus' work is for ALL we therefore know it's for us (since it is universal, with no exceptions). Of course, Sola Gratia - Solus Christus APART FROM SOLA FIDE does not result in justification (justification results from all 3 aspects of it: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE), justification requires the divine gift of faith which God gives to His Elect. However the divine gift of faith apprehends reality because the Sola Gratia - Solus Christus IS THERE for all. One of the many problems of those who reject this is that faith may or may not be apprehending something (since it may not be for THEM) and there's no way to know if they are justified for not.

UNIVERSALISM This is the rejection and repudiation of the "Sola Fide" part of justification, arguing that one is justified REGARDLESS of whether they have the divine gift of faith or not. It insists we are justified via Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, rejecting the Sola Fide part. Yes, it assumes universal atonement but then repudiates Sola Fide, which orthodox, traditional Christian theology does not do (since Scripture and the Councils does not permit).




A Hopefully Helpful ILLUSTRATION-


Next February, God willing, my wife and I will be joined by a son. So far, I've only seen him in admittedly hard to distinguish photos of him still in the womb - but that's all I know about him (oh, he is a boy!). We chose to not to any of the texts of possible birth issues (doesn't matter, we aren't going to abort him). We don't know if he'll be handsome or ugly, smart or dumb, good or bad. And so far, all he's done is cost a lot of money, kicked his mother a lot, and made her physically ill (she's better now, however). He hasn't done any good work to merit the life he obviously has (he does all kinds of gymnastics in there; I can now feel it).

And we are already "nesting" (as my wife puts it). We bought a new car (a Honda Pilot SUV), repainted the nursery and already have it all decorated, we have the car seat and rocker and dresser/changing table and LOTS of other things already in the nursery and ready to go (although it's still some months before his scheduled entrance). And there's LOTS of clothes and other things - even before the 3 upcoming baby showers - some from us, most from the two sets of soon-to-be grandparents (a first grandchild for them both). We've both arranged for leave with our employers

And we already LOVE that little boy to pieces. We pray for him constantly (together and separately). My wife is already singing to him (including "Jesus songs"). I suspect only the parents out there know what I'm talking about.... Crazy, absolutely crazy, how much you can be in love (and all that means) with one you've never seen and has done absolutely nothing whatsoever to earn all this (quite the opposite - he's cost us a lot).

And years from now.... perhaps because of the brokenness of this world and of sin..... he may wander to a place.... and wonder about Mom and Dad..... wonder about our love and dedication to him.... wonder if our love has disappeared because he isn't earning it..... and we can remind him of this time when all he did was kick his mother, make her sick and cost us a bunch of time, effort and money - and we loved him: more than we can convey, more than we can understand.... not because of what he did but because of who he is: our son, our heart.

.... THAT is essentially the "Mystery of Election" from the Lutheran perspective....




Some Scriptures -

Ephesians 1:3-11

Romans 8:28-30

Romans 8:33

Romans 9:15-16

1 Thessalonians 1:4

2 Thessalonians 2:13

Psalm 65:4


OBVIOUSLY there is much mystery here, but Lutherans prefer to leave mystery as mystery... and to leave gospel as gospel.



Links for more information -
A more formal and confessional look from a Lutheran seminary professor of Theology: http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issu...ves/scaer2.htm
Calvinist Predestination vs. Lutheran Predestination http://www.patheos.com/blogs/genevei...redestination/

Soli DEO Gloria!


- Josiah



.

 

[MennoSota]

To that guy from the revival in Wales. The woman he rented a room from thought he was nuts, cause he prayed 6 hours a day w groanings.

http://www.wordsoflife.co.uk/bible-studies/study-7-revival-comes-when-christians-pray/

Again, this makes no sense in regard to limited vs unlimited atonement as it relates to predestination.
Please clarify for me how your statement connects to the topic.

 

[Imalive]

Again, this makes no sense in regard to limited vs unlimited atonement as it relates to predestination.
Please clarify for me how your statement connects to the topic.

It's very coincidental that all of a sudden I dont know how many ppl were elected cause they got saved and if the guy had been too lazy to pray or warn them (Ezekiel 3) then all of a sudden the ppl hadnt been elected.

 

[MennoSota]

Wrong. And no I don't.

Universal atonement accepts/embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. I accept that. UniversalISM rejects/repudiates Sola Fide. I don't. Thus I accept Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. And I accept (do not reject) Sola Fide. I reject your premise that if faith is lack, ERGO it is mandated that God's grace and Savior are also missing - your premise is absurd and unbiblical.


Yes, I accept the biblical view of Election but I reject the radical, Greek, "double predestination" theory of some Calvinists which was condemned at the Ecumenical Council of Orange.


Your very odd attempt to equate universal atonement with universalism is, well, odd, unbiblical, and of course undermines the Protestant concept of justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It is absurd to insist that if one doesn't have faith, ergo there is no grace or Savior. And of course, it creates "a terror of the conscience" as many (including Luther) noted: it means that you have no assurance, no reason to believe that God's love is unconditional (as the Bible says it is) or that Jesus is your Savior. The rest of us KNOW that God is merciful and gracious to us, that Jesus is our Savior ( OF ME) because His grace/mercy and Savior is for all. Faith then apprehends that and applies it to me. In this Greek idea of some Calvinists, faith is likely ineffectual because God's grace/mercy and Savior is only for SOME and there's no way to know if I'm one of those "some." It's not only an absurd and unbiblical idea - but it's a horrible one. For all these reasons, it is rejected by all but some radical, extreme Calvinists and was condemned at an Ecumenical Council.







You are inventing a false contrast. Monergism and Synergism are incompatable but neither is the issue here. This has nothing to do with your premise that if faith is lacking in a person, ERGO God is not gracious and Jesus is not the Savior, you are trying to suggest that embracing universal atonement is embracing universalism.

And you are making a common uber-Calvinist mistake: Of simply casting everyone else as an Arminianist. It's just not true. Lutherans (etc.) are just as monergistic and just as anti-Arminianist as any Calvinist, but we accept Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (it seems MORE than those uber-Calvinists) and we don't think such is destroyed if a person lacks faith, it simply means such is not applied to that person. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus is universally true, Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide applies to the elect for the elect are given faith which apprehends the grace and Savior.




- Josiah




.

Josiah, what does the scripture that I quoted mean to you? You often flee the text to go to philosophy as your argument. Let's stay with scripture.
Notice that God tells us that he only came to save the elect. His atonement was not universal.
1) Jesus saved only "His people" from their sins.
2) Jesus laid down his life for the sheep...not the goats, not the wolves, no one else.
3) Jesus gave his life for the many...not the all.
4) God makes many righteous (the elect), not all.

Matthew 1:21. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.... I am the good shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.... But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
*Mark 10:45. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Romans 5:18-19. “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

 

[MennoSota]

It's very coincidental that all of a sudden I dont know how many ppl were elected cause they got saved and if the guy had been too lazy to pray or warn them (Ezekiel 3) then all of a sudden the ppl hadnt been elected.

You don't grasp election, nor do you understand Ezekiel.
God tells us that those whom He chooses will never be lost. Some humans failure is never going to thwart God's will.

 

[Albion]

That guy from the article said that. I thought it was rather funny.

Actually, you said it. That's why I quoted you in my reply.

 

[Imalive]

Actually, you said it. That's why I quoted you in my reply.

Yes I quoted him, cause I accidentally read that in his Calvin monster link, cause I get so tired of ppl setting aside the whole catholic church as evil. Then dont listen to anything the reformed say either, cause Calvin was bad and dont listen to anyone actually who has anything bad in their church history or doctrin.

 

[Albion]

No quotation marks were used, so it's your comment.

Anyway, Calvinism =/= Protestantism, so that comparison to a monolithic organization like the RCC doesn't work.