Who IS and IS NOT a Christian?

[user1234]

We are told we will be burdened and that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not comfortable vain assurance.

You said ... →If I believe that there is but one Gospel and one people then I will spread this to the best of my ability, not set idly by as if I do not believe.←
•RIGHT! So we preach the gospel of the grace of God. Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the grave... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.•


You said ... →Believing is knowing within the context of faith. To have knowledge and not do anything with it is chaos and hypocrisy. We don't do to be saved we do because we believe in the salvation made available to us and it's effectual power.←

Did someone suggest not doing anything? You just admitted that we dont DO anything FOR our salvation. Thats right. The doing we do is believing. I think the difference here is you state we do bc of the salvation MADE AVAILABLE to us.
I believe the bible teaches we do bc HE SAVED us.

As I look at this, I'm thinking maybe a subtle difference is in the word 'us'.

There is the 'us' in the general sense, all of everyone.
Then there's the 'us' as believers...the saved.
(Thats why I'll often say, 'Saved believers' even though some might consider that a redundancy, it makes a distinction for conversations sake)

For the 'us' in the general sense, yes, we say salvation 'IS AVAILABLE' for us.
Once saved, the 'us' changes to us saved believers.

We dont say salvation is available to to 'us who are saved', we say we already have it, and those that have yet to believe in Jesus, the 'us' in the general sense, become 'them'.

To us, we have. To them, it's available.
We share the gospel (by the various, many ways and means and abilities we have)
and pray they believe it and get saved and the 'us' grows.



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**SORRY , I DIDNT EDIT THAT ↑ RIGHT, IM NOT TOO GOOD WITH THAT, OR COMPUTER STUFF, AND MY COMMENTS ARE CONTAINED WITHIN THE QUOTE BOX. SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION THAT MAY HAVE CAUSED.

Happy Thanksgiving! God Bless You!

 

[Josiah]

Who IS and IS NOT a Christian? IMO....


There are two main ways people use the term "Christian" to refer to people.....

1. A person who has been given the divine gift of faith and thus trusts/relies in Jesus Christ as Savior.
2. A person who professes a certain corpus of doctrines/teaches and/or behaves in ways considered to be Christian.

Both of these uses can be found in Scripture and in the history of the church. It's similar to the two ways in which the word "faith" may be used (as trust/reliance or as embrace of correct doctrine).



I use the first as the definition of who IS a Christian - their IDENTITY.
I use the second as marks of what a Christian (should) profess and do.
The first has to do with identity, the second with performance.
Some would say there's a Law/Gospel distinction here.


Of course, the first is not objectively observable. When God gives us faith and makes us His child, we don't grow 5 feet or get a third eye or even a visible halo over our heads. So, how can we KNOW that someone is a Christian? Objectively, perfectly - we can't. Which is why Jesus tells us to just gather fish - haul them ALL in - and let Jesus sort it all out on Judgement Day; Jesus can see into people's hearts, NO HUMAN can. In the Church, we tend to take Jesus and people both "at their word." If someone says "I believe" we tend to accept that (after all, neither they or we can prove that). EVEN if they commit some sin! EVEN if WE think they are wrong about some bit of theology!


And of course, the second cannot PERFECTLY be objectively observed, either. Satan himself knows theology perfectly (he seems able to quote the Bible at will, too). And a Buddhist can live well (in fact, I wish my outward life was as good as a Buddhist I work with). There can be indications (Jesus speaks of "by their fruits") but it's far from perfect in terms of objectivity: it's probably more helpful in identifying who is NOT than who is. God knows.


I believe we should be "evangelical" or "open" about embracing who is and is not a brother or sister in Christ, slow to burn others at the stake, slow with the torchure rakes in inquistitions. I think it's likely better to love and embrace one who may (unknowingly to themselves) not actually BE a Christian than to hate, repudiate and excommunicate one whom God has chosen, redeemed and forgiven - but is struggling in thought an deed (as ALL Christians DO to some extent). God is able to sort this all out. God knows who are His own.


I know some disagree with me......


Discussion?


- Josiah



PS It is NOT the intent of this thread to discuss any polities of this website. There is a separate forum for discussing community matters. This thread is to discuss the topic at hand. Thanks!



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I think what makes one a Christian is the divine gift of faith in Christ as their Savior in their hearts.


Such OFTEN (but not always) will have some thing associated with it: A profession of faith or creed - some STATEMENT that they believe in Jesus and some knowledge in their brain about this matter, but not necessarily (think John the Baptist still in his mother's womb). There OFTEN (but not always) is some "fruit" of that faith, but it can be hard to objectively be certain. For example, I believe that repentance is a fruit of faith but it can be very difficult for others to tell if that person is feeling remorse or repentance (they look VERY similar), I think morality is a fruit of faith but that can be hard because unbelivers can be ( outwardly good (note the Pharisees and a Buddhist coworker of mine, lol) and Christians of course sin. I think that OFTEN (but not always) good theology is associated with faith but the truth is put 1000 Christians in a room and you'll gave at least 100 different theologies expressed - all thinking self is the correct one.



There are TWO (and only two) who KNOW if one is a Christian: God and self. God probably won't tell us but self might. I think that generally, we should believe them. They may have sin in their lives (but then so do we).... they may be wrong about some doctrine (but then we might be, too).

I think Jesus addresses this in the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds: Matthew 13:24-30 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?" But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” God is one of the two who knows.... and He promises to personally sort this all out in the end; I think we should let Him.



My half cent.....


- Josiah




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[popsthebuilder]

**SORRY , I DIDNT EDIT THAT ↑ RIGHT, IM NOT TOO GOOD WITH THAT, OR COMPUTER STUFF, AND MY COMMENTS ARE CONTAINED WITHIN THE QUOTE BOX. SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION THAT MAY HAVE CAUSED.

Happy Thanksgiving! God Bless You!

You seem to be drawing a dividing line between those who think themselves saved and those who do not assume such.

I do not think osas is accurate. I believe all bit the very elect have potential to fall away.

I can understand using is to refer to all or believers, but I would not divide believers between saved and unsaved as I personally, in my own opinion find that those who believe themselves already safe are too the ones you find doing nothing but striving against fellow believers.

I'm glad you understand that I believe works pleasing to GOD to be a product of faith and not the other way around.

peace

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[Imalive]

You seem to be drawing a dividing line between those who think themselves saved and those who do not assume such.

I do not think osas is accurate. I believe all bit the very elect have potential to fall away.

I can understand using is to refer to all or believers, but I would not divide believers between saved and unsaved as I personally, in my own opinion find that those who believe themselves already safe are too the ones you find doing nothing but striving against fellow believers.

I'm glad you understand that I believe world to be a product of faith and not the other way around.

peace

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No some may, but from osnas too.
Thing is, osas ppl are afraid that you are not sure, so they want to help and the osnas are like: dont go lay on your bed! watch out you dont fall away!
When I just got saved I was in a legalistic cult. Every thing you did wrong during the week you had to come to repentance and ask Jesus in your heart again. So then I got taught osas in church. Yay! Finally! God didnt all the time hate me. But years later I had so much grace and osas to the point of noone warning you if you were in real life threatening sin. I dont think most ppl who say they are osas are really osas. Also ppl dont understand each other at all. If one warns if you live in blatant sin its not a legalist adding works.

 

[Josiah]

The "problem" with OSAS in my opinion is that it's based on the premise that self cannot (and likely does not) know if they are a Christian or not - and thus doesn't know how to respond to them, to embrace them as a Christian or not. MY view is if they say they are Christian - I pretty much accept that. If they state they are not - I pretty much accept that (ALTHOUGH I believe doubts can annoy and faith can ebb and flow- I somethings think self confuses doubts with a lack of faith; faith the size of a mustard seed is still faith).


In any case, I don't believe that one holding to be uber-Calvinist view of OSAS means that ERGO they are or are not a Christian. Indeed, I rather strongly suspect it has little to do with it. A Christian who holds to it is one I embrace as a Christian, and a Christian who does not hold to that (very minority view) is also one I embrace as a Christian.

 

[MennoSota]

I think what makes one a Christian is the divine gift of faith in Christ as their Savior in their hearts.


Such OFTEN (but not always) will have some thing associated with it: A profession of faith or creed - some STATEMENT that they believe in Jesus and some knowledge in their brain about this matter, but not necessarily (think John the Baptist still in his mother's womb). There OFTEN (but not always) is some "fruit" of that faith, but it can be hard to objectively be certain. For example, I believe that repentance is a fruit of faith but it can be very difficult for others to tell if that person is feeling remorse or repentance (they look VERY similar), I think morality is a fruit of faith but that can be hard because unbelivers can be ( outwardly good (note the Pharisees and a Buddhist coworker of mine, lol) and Christians of course sin. I think that OFTEN (but not always) good theology is associated with faith but the truth is put 1000 Christians in a room and you'll gave at least 100 different theologies expressed - all thinking self is the correct one.



There are TWO (and only two) who KNOW if one is a Christian: God and self. God probably won't tell us but self might. I think that generally, we should believe them. They may have sin in their lives (but then so do we).... they may be wrong about some doctrine (but then we might be, too).

I think Jesus addresses this in the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds: Matthew 13:24-30 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?" But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” God is one of the two who knows.... and He promises to personally sort this all out in the end; I think we should let Him.



My half cent.....


- Josiah




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God knows.
Self...self may not know.
There are many who label themselves Christian because they have gone through the prescribed requirements set up by their church. They trust in the path their church has prescribed, yet never have known Jesus as their Redeemer and King.
Self may be deluded into imaging that works which mirror the fruit of the Spirit are actually the fruit of the Spirit.
Self may be wrong. However, the path to the cross is not easy and those whom God has chosen he will also give the grace to persevere.

 

[Josiah]

God knows.
Self...self may not know.
There are many who label themselves Christian because they have gone through the prescribed requirements set up by their church. They trust in the path their church has prescribed, yet never have known Jesus as their Redeemer and King.
Self may be deluded into imaging that works which mirror the fruit of the Spirit are actually the fruit of the Spirit.
Self may be wrong. However, the path to the cross is not easy and those whom God has chosen he will also give the grace to persevere.

I agree that self MAY not know.... but there's no other human on the planet who would know if one is a Christian BETTER than that person.....


In Lutheranism (and I think in most of Christianity) there is not a confusion between those who have the divine gift of faith in Christ (trusting/relying on the Savior) with those who are orthodox (little "o") or "correct" (in agreement with self) in their THEOLOGY - in how they articulate matters of doctrine, or those who have sin in their lives (since we all do). Not that these issues are entirely unrelated, but they are not to be confused. IMO, one can lack theology entirely and still be a Christian (witness John the Baptist) and have sin in their lives (witness me) and yet be a Christian - a brother or sister in Christ, the Body of Christ, an equal part of the one, holy, catholic church.

I agree there MAY be "hypocrites" in the church. And that a hypocrite can be intentional (they are lying) or unintentional (they are innocently wrong; they sincerely think they have the divine gift of faith but don't). I just don't think that is to be our primary concern of OTHERS (see Matthew 13:24-30). Preach Law/Gospel to ALL. Love ALL. God knows, God promises to sort it out.


My half cent....


- Josiah





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[MennoSota]

I agree that self MAY not know.... but there's no other human on the planet who would know if one is a Christian BETTER than that person.....


In Lutheranism (and I think in most of Christianity) there is not a confusion between those who have the divine gift of faith in Christ (trusting/relying on the Savior) with those who are orthodox (little "o") or "correct" (in agreement with self) in their THEOLOGY - in how they articulate matters of doctrine, or those who have sin in their lives (since we all do). Not that these issues are entirely unrelated, but they are not to be confused. IMO, one can lack theology entirely and still be a Christian (witness John the Baptist) and have sin in their lives (witness me) and yet be a Christian - a brother or sister in Christ, the Body of Christ, an equal part of the one, holy, catholic church.

I agree there MAY be "hypocrites" in the church. And that a hypocrite can be intentional (they are lying) or unintentional (they are innocently wrong; they sincerely think they have the divine gift of faith but don't). I just don't think that is to be our primary concern of OTHERS (see Matthew 13:24-30). Preach Law/Gospel to ALL. Love ALL. God knows, God promises to sort it out.


My half cent....


- Josiah





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I agree that it is not our role to be declaring who is and is not a Christian.
It is our role to ask probing and discerning questions that either produce a joyful response or a resentful response. A wolf cannot help acting like a wolf, even though it wears sheep's clothing.
What can we discern from this dialogue between Oprah and guests to her show?
https://youtu.be/vMckuY7SnXY

 

[Pedrito]

Post #32:

But, only God knows whom he has chosen.

1John 5:16,17 (MKJV - emphasis added):
16 If anyone sees his brother sin a sin not to death, he shall ask, and He shall give him life for those that do not sin to death. There is a sin to death, I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not to death.

It looks like we are supposed to know, as well. And it looks like we have a serious, related responsibility with respect to them.

Now isn’t that interesting?

 

[user1234]

Post #32:


John 5:16,17 (MKJV - emphasis added):
16 If anyone sees his brother sin a sin not to death, he shall ask, and He shall give him life for those that do not sin to death. There is a sin to death, I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not to death.

It looks like we are supposed to know, as well. And it looks like we have a serious, related responsibility with respect to them.

Now isn’t that interesting?

1st John↑
It does say 'brother' there, doesn't it, so it would seem that there's a distinction, and we're supposed to know, not just assume? I guess the question is, ... On what basis?

Ive heard the expression 'separated brethren' used by RomanCatholics about others (non-RCics?) So I guess they consider all RCics to be brothers because of being in the same denomination, and others to be estranged RCics??

I guess some ppl would regard everyone as brothers simply bc of common humanity, or is it a certain behavior within that humanity that they then consider brothers (regardless of religion, or denomination within a religion?) IOW, certain 'unacceptable behavior' would make them decide they're not their brother?

Who is a brother in the passage in 1st John5:16?

 

[MoreCoffee]

1st John↑
It does say 'brother' there, doesn't it, so it would seem that there's a distinction, and we're supposed to know, not just assume? I guess the question is, ... On what basis?

...

Jesus told a story, a parable, about a good Samaritan to teach the scribes and Pharisees and the people too that your neighbour is whoever you see and can help when they are in need so maybe your brother is like your neighbour and if a brother has to be a Christian then whoever is baptised or whoever professes faith in Jesus Christ and all who are helpless and in need are your brethren. Jesus said as much in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #90, in response to Pedrito’s reference John 5:16,17:

“1st John↑”

Pedrito thanks Snerfle for pointing out that slip of the pen.

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From Post #90 again:

“It does say 'brother' there, doesn't it, so it would seem that there's a distinction, and we're supposed to know, not just assume? I guess the question is, ... On what basis?
.
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Who is a brother in the passage in 1st John5:16?”

Snerfle has asked a highly pertinent question. Pedrito will offer a few thoughts.

1. People in the Apostolic church clearly knew, without even having to think, what John meant.

2. The term “brother” as used by John (which includes “sister” – the male in Greek appears to embrace the female, as in correct English) equally clearly referred to someone who was identifiably in danger of losing the salvation that had been offered to them and that they had previously accepted.

3. The way in which a person could qualify for that fate was sinning against the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus.

4. That appears to tie in with Hebrews 6:4-6 (and other statements of Scripture):
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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If the set of doctrines that we are accustomed to, and that we limit ourselves within, does not take “the whole counsel of God” into consideration – and therefore does not allow us to identify those individuals (those who qualify as brothers and sisters, as well as those in strife, and those on the way out) with precision – then Pedrito floats the thought that that particular set of doctrines is significantly (even dramatically) deficient. That set of doctrines is at odds with God’s Holy Revelation.

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Who are the identifiable brothers and sisters?

Continued...

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

If the set of doctrines that we are accustomed to, and that we limit ourselves within, does not take “the whole counsel of God” into consideration – and therefore does not allow us to identify those individuals (those who qualify as brothers and sisters, as well as those in strife, and those on the way out) with precision – then Pedrito floats the thought that that particular set of doctrines is significantly (even dramatically) deficient. That set of doctrines is at odds with God’s Holy Revelation.

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Who are the identifiable brothers and sisters in 1st John 5:16,17?
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

==============================================================================================

Pedrito could point to John 1:11-13 (no slip of the pen this time):
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Note that it does not say they were made children (sons) of God, but that they were given the power, the right, the authority to become children (sons) of God.

There was (is) a second step involved.

Pedrito suggests that finding within Holy Scripture what that step is, will answer the question “Who is a brother (or sister)?” conclusively.

The question that remains is, how much of the existing doctrine set that confines a person’s thinking, will have to be unravelled to make that finding possible?