The washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit

Imalive

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Interesting sequence of events isn't it. They were the first gentiles to believe and be baptised. God had to work hard to get Peter to visit them and I guess he had to work hard to get Peter and his Jewish-Christian friends to accept the gentiles. My guess is that is why they were given the Spirit first and then baptised - as proof for the reluctant Peter and his reluctant friends.

Yes and as proof for the people who say you first have to be water baptized before getting saved.

:smirk:
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes and as proof for the people who say you first have to be water baptized before getting saved.

:smirk:

Who says that?
 

Imalive

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MoreCoffee

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MennoSota

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Excellent that you found John Gill's commentary. I disagree with his analysis of Titus 3:5. I prefer the one given by Barnes and also the one in the Cambridge Bible Commentary.
Of course you do. It's doubtful you would ever support a Calvinist reading/interpretation of any passage.
There are other commentaries I could post, but you like the ones with weak hermaneutics. Find the one that itches your ears, MC.
 

MennoSota

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Interesting sequence of events isn't it. They were the first gentiles to believe and be baptised. God had to work hard to get Peter to visit them and I guess he had to work hard to get Peter and his Jewish-Christian friends to accept the gentiles. My guess is that is why they were given the Spirit first and then baptised - as proof for the reluctant Peter and his reluctant friends.
Hmmm...the Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind in an earlier passage...
 

NewCreation435

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Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

Cambridge Bible Commentary

Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness] The exact grammatical form is rendered by not by virtue of works, works in righteousness which we did. We should read the neut. accus. of the relative with the best authorities, rather than the genitive here. Bp Wordsworth well explains the reason of the clause: that when those false teachers were asked what was their ground of hope of salvation, they would reply The works wrought in righteousness which we did; but St Paul would answer Gods mercy.

he saved us] Vulg. salvos nos fecit. Compare the aorist tenses in Col 2:13-15. Bp Lightfoot thus brings out the force (Revision of N.T. p. 85): St Paul regards this change from sin to righteousness, from bondage to freedom, from death to life, as summed up in one definite act of the past; potentially to ail men in our Lords Passion and Resurrection, actually to each individual man when he accepts Christ, is baptized into Christ. It is the definiteness, the absoluteness of this change, considered as a historical crisis, which forms the central idea of St Pauls teaching, and which the aorist marks. See also note on 1Ti 2:4.

by the washing of regeneration] Properly through the washing or through the laver; the preposition expresses the channel or means through which; the washing or laver of regeneration is evidently one phrase for the sacrament of Holy Baptism. The genitive marks the attribute or inseparable accompaniments, Winer § 30 2 b, who quotes Mar 1:4, repentance-baptism. Cf. Col 1:22, his flesh-body, i.e. His material, natural body, distinguished from the mystical body before mentioned. Cf. also the fire of testing, Teaching of the Twelve Apostles xvi. 5.

Should we render here washing or laver? It has been usual among English commentators as Wordsw., Alf., Conybeare, Ellicott, to render laver, and to understand the baptismal font, on the ground that the Greek word means always a vessel or pool in which washing takes place. So no doubt the form in tron properly signifies, as e.g. arotron a plough, alabastron, an ointment-bottle. But classical usage is in the plural a bath, Hom. Il. xviii. 489, Ag. 1080; in the sing, the act of washing, Hes. Op. 755, expiatory libations, Soph. El. 84, water for washing,Col. 1599; Aristoph. Lys. 378. The Septuagint usage is only in the sing., Jer 31:25, A man baptized from the death of sin, and again taking hold of it, what does he gain from his washing? Son 4:2 Thy teeth are like a flock of ewes that are newly shorn, which are come up from the washing. The N.T. usage is only in the sing., Eph 5:26, having cleansed it (the Church) by the washing of water with the word, R.V., with margin Gr. laver, and the present passage where R.V. gives washing, with margin Or, laver. According to R.V. rules this inconsistency neutralises its verdict. For in Eph 5:26 it is implied that laver is more exact; in Tit. that washing is more, and laver less likely, as the meaning of the Greek. On the whole the classical usage, the A.V. and R.V. text, support the rendering washing. As to the form of the word, the Greeks may have been at liberty to divert it from its proper meaning, having the kindred form lout for a bath, which, according to analogy, should be a bathing man. Somewhat similarly having ast for a star they used astron for a cluster of stars.

regeneration] Palingenesia is one of the many words which the Gospel found, and, so to speak, glorified. Abp Trench, who admirably draws out the enlargement here, N. T. Syn. 18. The word had been used by the Pythagoreans, in the doctrine of transmigration of souls, for their reappearance in new bodies; by the Stoics for the periodic renovation of the earth in spring; in Cicero it describes his restoration to his dignities and honours after his return from exile; in Josephus the restoration of the Jewish nation after the captivity. The word does not occur in the Septuagint; and in N.T. only here and Mat 19:28. In our Lords words there is evident reference to the new birth of the whole creation (Act 3:21), which shall be when the Son of Man hereafter comes in His glory; while St Pauls washing of regeneration has to do with the new birth not of the whole travailing creation, but of the single soul, which is now evermore finding place.… The palingenesia which Scripture proclaims begins with the microcosmus of single souls; but it does not end there; it does not cease its effectual working till it has embraced the whole macrocosmus of the universe.

But if, as seems most consistent with the whole chapter, and with St Matthews grand aim to paint a present kingdom of the heavens, the reference of Mat 19:28 is to the Church, Catholic and Apostolic, then regeneration in both passages refers to the same act and epoch, when our Lord having overcome the sharpness of death opened the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers, and on the day of Pentecost 3000 souls said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles Brethren, what shall we do? and were baptized by them unto the remission of their sins, and continued stedfastly in the apostles teaching and fellowship. In our Lords words and in St Pauls the setting up of this kingdom, the entrance into it, is life from the dead, a second birth; and Joh 3:3; Joh 3:5 Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God; Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, (summed up in palingenesia Mat 19:28) explains and is explained by Eph 5:25-26, Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it, that he might cleanse it by the washing of water with the word (summed up in palingenesia:, Tit 3:5).

and renewing of the Holy Ghost] R.V. keeps this rendering of A.V. which necessarily makes renewing depend like regeneration on the washing; giving in the margin as a good, but not so good, construction and through renewing, where the government is carried back to the preposition. It is only a question of the naturalness of the order of words, and of the doctrine that renewing or renovation depends on Baptism being expressly stated or left to be inferred. The doctrine itself cannot but be true, as life must precede growth, and growth must depend upon life. Compare Eph 5:26, where the purpose of Christ giving Himself up for the Church is stated to be, first that He might cleanse it by the washing of water through the word (as above), and then that He might sanctify it, till there should be no spot nor blemish; and Rom 12:2, Be ye transformed (present tense) by the renewal of your mind; see that the gradual restoration of the Divine image be ever going forward. No nobler commentary on the phrase has been written than the ancient Veni Creator.​

I was just thinking about this verse again and how great God's mercy truly is. He sees us completely. All of our faults and sins, past, present and future and yet still loves us and reaches out to us in His mercy and grace. There is no way we deserve it. There is no way that I deserve it. His mercy is something we should always remember to be thankful for.
 

Albion

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The term is "baptism" or "baptized."

To constantly write "water baptized" makes no more sense than saying "worship service with people" or else it's intended only as a poke in the eye to the great majority of Christians who baptize and are baptized in the standard fashion. It's artificial and, frankly, it makes the person talking like that sound like some sort of bumpkin. I'm sorry, but that's how it hits the ears.
 

MennoSota

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How Does the New Birth Happen?

So we turn now to today’s question: How does God do it? How does the new birth happen? Just like we saw in the words of Jesus in John 3, Paul describes regeneration as a cleansing and a renewing. At the end of Titus 3:5, Paul says that God saved us “by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” Regeneration is a kind of washing. And regeneration is a kind of renewal.

Recall that Jesus said in John 3:5, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” So in John 3, you have born of water and the Spirit. And in Titus 3, you have washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

My argument in John 3 was that this language of water and Spirit came from Ezekiel 36:25-27 where God promises his people,

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. . . . And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes.
Jesus was saying that the time of the new covenant promises has arrived. Ezekiel’s promise is coming to pass by the Spirit in connection with me. The Spirit gives life (John 6:63). And I am the way the truth and the life (John 14:6). And when the Spirit connects you to me by faith you experience a new birth. And there are at least two ways to look at it: cleansing from all that is past and renewal for all that is future.

Both Clean and New

So when Paul says here in verse 5 that God “saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,” he means roughly the same thing: The promises of the new covenant have arrived. The beginning of the kingdom of God is here. The final universal “regeneration” has begun. And your new birth is a cleansing from all the sin that you have ever committed; and it is the creation of a new nature by the Holy Spirit.

You are still you after the new birth. But there are two changes: You are clean, and you are new. That is what it means to be born again, regenerated.

How did God bring that about?

What Paul wants to emphasize here is that it is owing to the way God is, not owing to what we have done—even done in righteousness. Verses 4 and 5 give three descriptions of the way God is and puts this in contrast to anything we might try to do to be born again. “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”

Salvation is the big overarching idea in this text (verse 5: “he saved us”). But the specific way he does it is regeneration. And Paul traces both of them back to God’s “goodness,” his “loving kindness” (verse 4), and his “mercy” (verse 5). This is Paul’s ultimate answer to how God regenerates sinners. God is good. God is loving. God is merciful.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/through-the-washing-of-regeneration
 

MennoSota

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The term is "baptism" or "baptized."

To constantly write "water baptized" makes no more sense than saying "worship service with people" or else it's intended only as a poke in the eye to the great majority of Christians who baptize and are baptized in the standard fashion. It's artificial and, frankly, it makes the person talking like that sound like some sort of bumpkin. I'm sorry, but that's how it hits the ears.
Baptizo means "to immerse or dip." Thus, when I dip my chip into salsa, I am baptizing my chip. Therefore the context is very important to know what is being immersed and into what substance. There is more than water that a person is dipped into when baptizo is used.
We are immersed in Christ by the Spirit, this is the baptism that saved us, not the cleansing by water, which Peter states so that his readers won't be confused. (Sadly, however, people still miss Peters point even today.)
 

user1234

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The term is "baptism" or "baptized."

To constantly write "water baptized" makes no more sense than saying "worship service with people" or else it's intended only as a poke in the eye to the great majority of Christians who baptize and are baptized in the standard fashion. It's artificial and, frankly, it makes the person talking like that sound like some sort of bumpkin. I'm sorry, but that's how it hits the ears.
:poke:Yes, youre obviously referring to me, pokey, ... why dont you just have some guts and say so?.... and I say 'water-baptism' to distinguish it from other baptisms and to be clear and honest about what Im referring to, unlike works-righteousness phonies who like to hide and talk a good game about grace while trying to give themselves an out by being vague and twisting scripture to feed their own egos and self-righteous arrogance.

You cant win... Salvation is by grace thru faith alone, not a religious denominations idea of trying to earn Gods favor with a perversion of scripture and WATER-baptism.
 

Imalive

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The term is "baptism" or "baptized."

To constantly write "water baptized" makes no more sense than saying "worship service with people" or else it's intended only as a poke in the eye to the great majority of Christians who baptize and are baptized in the standard fashion. It's artificial and, frankly, it makes the person talking like that sound like some sort of bumpkin. I'm sorry, but that's how it hits the ears.

No it's to make clear what we're talking about. I started doing it cause in that other thread it sounded like you can't get saved and be baptized in the Holy Spirit if you're not baptized in water. Its cause where I come from we see it as 2 things. Baptism in the Spirit and baptism in water. This whole text is about baptism in the Spirit.
 

MoreCoffee

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I was just thinking about this verse again and how great God's mercy truly is. He sees us completely. All of our faults and sins, past, present and future and yet still loves us and reaches out to us in His mercy and grace. There is no way we deserve it. There is no way that I deserve it. His mercy is something we should always remember to be thankful for.

That is the focus of the verse. Baptism is instrumental but the focus is salvation by grace mercifully shown to people who had no right to claim it.
 

Lamb

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Staff Notice:

There is some flaming here in this thread that needs to end. Even if the other person started it first don't behave poorly in return. Remember that we are to love our neighbor at all times and be merciful to them. In this thread I see name calling and that is not acceptable.
 

MoreCoffee

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... and I say 'water-baptism' to distinguish it from other baptisms and to be clear ...

Water is part of baptism in normal circumstances so it's okay to say "water baptism" and there used to be mikvahs in Judaism and they are called baptisms in English bible translations so I guess it is okay to say "other baptisms" however holy scripture says that for us "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." [Ephesians 4:4-6]
 

Josiah

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I say 'water-baptism' to distinguish it from other baptisms

IMO, that's irrelevant for Christians.... Yes, for JEWS there WERE other baptisms (at least 3 others) but none of these were ever Christian ones. There are baptisms in Hinduism too but these have never been Christian ones. For Christians, there is ONE Baptism. That's what the Bible specifically, literally, verbatim states. "There is one baptism." Ephesians 4:5


Now there are only and exclusively 3 possibilities related to the Holy Spirit for that ONE (and only one) baptism that exists in Christianity....

1. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is water only and doesn't involve the Holy Spirit at all.
2. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is Holy Spirit only and doesn't involve water in any way.
3. The only baptism that exists in Christianity is both water and the Holy Spirit.

There is no other possibility. Which is the "ONE BAPTISM?"




Salvation is by grace thru faith alone, not a religious denominations idea of trying to earn Gods favor with a perversion of scripture and WATER-baptism.


We had this discuss in the now-closed thread. Again, yet again my friend, one more time - the "Means of Grace" can deliver the gifts of God (The Holy Spirit, regeneration, faith, justification, etc.) but they are not the Savior. The Bible says, "My Word does not return to Me void but accomplishes all for which I sent it." Same with all the means of grace ("Tools in the hands of the Carpenter"). If I send you a Christmas gift and the mail man delivers it, is it a gift from me or from the mailman? If a carpenter uses a hammer to build a house, did the hammer build the house or did the carpenter?

OF COURSE, Jesus ALONE is the one, only and all-suffient Savior.... OF COURSE, we are justified by Grace because of Jesus received by faith. OF COURSE, it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. But that does not mandate that God's only choice for giving us that is to just ZAP us out of the clear blue sky with no context, no one ministering to us, no Sunday School teachers, no Pastors, no parents ever speaking of Jesus, no missionaries, no evangelists, no VBS - because God would be rendered impotent to gift us if any of that is done. It seems to ME that while God CAN just zap someone (John the Baptist believed before he was even born), God usually works via means, tools - which is why He tells us to spread the Good News, to go, to baptize, to teach.... It's why Paul evangelized, it's why Jesus preached.



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah
 
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user1234

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Staff Notice:

There is some flaming here in this thread that needs to end. Even if the other person started it first don't behave poorly in return. Remember that we are to love our neighbor at all times and be merciful to them. In this thread I see name calling and that is not acceptable.
Thanks, because quite frankly Im getting sick of the personal attacks. But please, if you think I'M ​guilty of 'flaming' someone, could you point out specifically what post? Not a generality or vague definition, but specifically?So I'd know how to either defend or correct it. Because I feel I've been 'flamed against' not just in public posts, but privately with some pretty disgusting personal attacks, that then get cravenly pulled or a given a halfast insincere apology. Disagreeing with false teaching and practice is one thing, and should be called out, and at least discussed, for the sake of Truth...Jesus. But cowardly personal attacks is quite another thing, but if someone is going to dish it out and nothing is done, then the person attacked should have the right to defend themself and give it back, should they not, yes no?
 

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Thanks, because quite frankly Im getting sick of the personal attacks. But please, if you think I'M ​guilty of 'flaming' someone, could you point out specifically what post? Not a generality or vague definition, but specifically?So I'd know how to either defend or correct it. Because I feel I've been 'flamed against' not just in public posts, but privately with some pretty disgusting personal attacks, that then get cravenly pulled or a given a halfast insincere apology. Disagreeing with false teaching and practice is one thing, and should be called out, and at least discussed, for the sake of Truth...Jesus. But cowardly personal attacks is quite another thing, but if someone is going to dish it out and nothing is done, then the person attacked should have the right to defend themself and give it back, should they not, yes no?

Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

I will have a staff member PM you concerning your flaming if that is what you wish since you obviously do not realize you're doing it. I think that's the problem here that Christians know that Jesus called people white-washed tombs so they think it's fine for them to flame as well. But none of us is Jesus. We are to speak to our neighbors out of love, not revenge.

If you're receiving PMs that are flaming you, then report them. Staff will look them over.
 

user1234

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I already re-posted some of it publicly for ALL to see. Not a word was said.
 
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