the meaning of Baptism

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MoreCoffee

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And in the text that Jesus came from water and Spirit, what is water there? Or what He says to the woman at the well.

John 4:13-14 (NASB) 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

Do you mean 1 John 5:6 in the KJV?
 
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Imalive

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Imalive

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Do you mean 1 John 5:8 in the KJV?

verse 6


Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood-- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
 

MoreCoffee

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I mean baptism water, the water used in baptism.

Baptism is never with water alone. Baptism is always "water and the Spirit".
 

Imalive

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I looked it up. Fruit water. lol one things for sure its not fruit water. amniotic fluid LOL
 

MoreCoffee

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I looked it up. Fruit water. lol one things for sure its not fruit water. amniotic fluid LOL

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Cambridge Commentary on the Bible

1 John 5:6
This is he that came] Closely connected with what precedes: This Son of God is He that came. The identity of the historic person Jesus with the eternal Son of God is once more insisted upon as the central and indispensable truth of the Christian faith. Faith in this truth is the only faith that can overcome the world and give eternal life. And it is a truth attested by witness of the highest and most extraordinary kind.

by water and blood] Literally, by means of or through water and blood. This is the most perplexing passage in the Epistle and one of the most perplexing in N. T. A very great variety of interpretations have been suggested. It would be simply confusing to discuss them all; but a few of the principal explanations, and the reasons for adopting the one preferred, may be stated with advantage. The water and the blood have been interpreted to mean:
(1) The Baptism by means of water in the Jordan and the Death by means of blood upon the Cross.
(2) The water and blood which flowed from Christs pierced side.
(3) Purification and Redemption.
(4) The Sacraments of Baptism and of the Eucharist.​

These are fairly representative interpretations; the first two making the water and blood refer to facts in the earthly career of the Messiah; the last two making them symbolical of mysteries. It will be observed that these explanations are not all exclusive one of another: either of the last two may be combined with either of the first two; and in fact the fourth is not unfrequently combined with the second. The second, which is S. Augustines, has recently received the support of the Speakers Commentary and of Canon F. W. Farrar in The Early Days of Christianity: but in spite of its attractiveness it appears to be scarcely tenable. The difficult passage in Joh 19:34 and the difficult passage before us do not really explain one another. That in these two passages alone, of all Scripture, are blood and water placed together, would, if true, amount to nothing more than a presumption that one may be connected with the other. And such a presumption would be at once weakened by the change of order: instead of the blood and water of the Gospel we have water and blood here. But the statement is not true; e.g. He shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water (Lev 14:52); He took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, &c. (Heb 9:19). And is it credible that S. John would speak of effusions from the dead body of Jesus as the Son of God coming through water and blood? Moreover, what, on this interpretation, can be the point of the emphatic addition, not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood? At the piercing of the side it was the water, not the blood, that was so marvellous. So that, to make the reference clear, the whole ought to run somewhat in this manner: This is He that shed forth blood and water, even Jesus Christ; not the blood only, but the blood and the water.

The first of the four explanations is far more tenable, and is adopted by Bede, but not to the entire exclusion of the second. So also Dr Westcott, who thinks the additional reference to Joh 19:34 beyond question. The Baptism in the water of Jordan and the Death by the shedding of blood sum up the work of redemption. Christs Baptism, with the Divine proclamation of Him as the Son of God and the Divine outpouring of the Spirit upon Him, is not merely the opening but the explanation of the whole of His Ministry. The bloody death upon the Cross is not merely the close but the explanation of His Passion. Coming when spoken of the Christ includes the notion of His mission (Joh 1:15; Joh 1:27; Joh 1:30; Joh 3:31; Joh 6:14; Joh 7:27; Joh 7:31; Joh 7:41, &c., &c.). Therefore, when we are told that the Son of God came by means of water and blood, we may reasonably understand this as meaning that He fulfilled His mission by the Baptism with which His public work began and the bloody Death with which He finished it (Joh 19:30). (1) This interpretation explains the order; water and blood, not blood and water. (2) It explains the first preposition; through or by means of (διά with the genitive: comp. the remarkable parallel Heb 9:12). (3) It also explains the second preposition; in (??, of the element in which, without the notion of means: comp. the remarkable parallel Heb 9:25). Christs Baptism and Death were in one sense the means by which, in another sense the spheres in which His work was accomplished. (4) Above all it explains the emphatic addition, not in water only, but in the water and in the blood. The Gnostic teachers, against whom the Apostle is writing, admitted that the Christ came through and in water: it was precisely at the Baptism, they said, that the Divine Word united Himself with the man Jesus. But they denied that the Divine Person had any share in what was effected through and in blood: for according to them the Word departed from Jesus at Gethsemane. S. John emphatically assures us that there was no such separation. It was the Son of God who was baptised; and it was the Son of God who was crucified: and it is faith in this vital truth that produces brotherly love, that overcomes the world, and is eternal life.

It may reasonably be admitted, however, that there is this large amount of connexion between the water and blood here and the blood and water in the Gospel. Both in a symbolical manner point to the two great sacraments. Thus Tertullian says; He had come by means of water and blood, just as John had written; that He might be baptised by the water, glorified by the blood; to make us in like manner called by water, chosen by blood. These two baptisms He sent out from the wound in His pierced side, in order that they who believed in His blood might be bathed in the water; they who had been bathed in the water might likewise drink the blood (De Bapt. XVI.).

not by water only, but by water and blood] Better as R.V., not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. With is literally in, of the element or sphere in which a thing is done. The use of in in this connexion both here and Heb 9:25 perhaps comes direct from LXX. In Lev 16:3 we have He shall come into the holy place in a young bullock (ἐν μόσχῳ ἐκ βοῶν)), i.e. with one. The Hebrew may mean in, with, by. The article in all three cases simply means the water and the blood already mentioned.

As applied to us these words will mean, Christ came not merely to purify by His baptism, but to give new life by His blood; for the blood is the life. In short, all that is said in the Gospel, especially in chapters 3 and 4, respecting water and blood may be included here. The Epistle is the companion treatise of the Gospel.

And it is the Spirit that beareth witness] Here again there are great diversities of interpretation. S. Augustine, who makes the water and blood refer to the effusions of Christs side, takes the spirit to mean the spirit which He committed to His Father at His death (Joh 19:30; Luk 23:46). But in what sense could Christs human spirit be said to be the Truth? Far more probably it is the Holy Spirit that is meant (1Jn 3:24, 1Jn 4:13; Joh 1:32-33; Joh 7:39; Rev 2:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 2:29, &c.). Bede takes this view and understands the witness of the Spirit at Christs baptism to be meant. The form of the sentence is exactly parallel to It is the spirit that giveth life (Joh 6:63). We might render in each case; The spirit is the life-giver, And the Spirit is the witness-bearer.

that beareth witness] We have seen already (note on 1Jn 1:2) that witness to the truth in order to produce faith is one of S. Johns leading thoughts in Gospel, Epistles, and Revelation. Here it becomes the dominant thought: the word witness (verb or substantive) occurs ten times in five verses. In the Gospel we have seven witnesses to Christ; scripture (Joh 5:39-47), the Baptist (1Jn 1:7), the Disciples (Joh 15:27, Joh 16:30), Christs works (Joh 5:36, Joh 10:25; Joh 10:38), Christs words (Joh 8:14; Joh 8:18, Joh 18:37), the Father (Joh 5:37, Joh 8:18), the Spirit (Joh 15:26). Of these seven three are specially mentioned in the Epistle, the Disciples in 1Jn 1:2, the Father in 1Jn 5:9-10, and the Spirit here; but to these are added two more, the water and the blood.

because the Spirit is truth] It would be possible to translate It is the Spirit that beareth witness that the Spirit is the truth: but this self-attestation of the Spirit would have no relation to the context. It is the witnesses to Christ, to the identity of Jesus with the Son of God, that S. John is marshalling before us. It is because the Spirit is the Truth that His testimony is irrefragable: He can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is the Spirit of Truth (Joh 14:16; Joh 15:26), and He glorifies the Christ, taking of His and declaring it unto the Church (Joh 16:14).

There is a remarkable Latin reading, quoniam Christus est veritas, It is the Spirit that beareth witness that the Christ is the Truth, but it has no authority.​
 

MennoSota

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Thus I disagree that God's Command to go and baptize and teach is "meaningless" "a waste of time" "of no spiritual value" "can accomplish nothing in God's hands" as has been stated in this thread. And thus I also disagree that doing as God COMMANDS Christians to do - to love, to go, to baptize, to teach, etc. - deny God's grace or soverignty or denies that Jesus is the Savior.





Thus I disagree that we must do NOTHING for that would deny the Grace of God and Jesus as the Savior.

And I find that Scripture indicates that God does this "plucking" typically via means (what Luther and Calvin called "The Means of Grace"). He is not forbidden to work outside that, God MAY deliver his salvic gift immediately (as in the case of John the Baptist before he was even born) but that seems to be atypical. Scripture declares, "Baptism now saves you" and "Faith comes by hearing" and "My Word shall not return to me void but shall accomplish all for which I sent it." Paul was called to preach the Gospel to unbelievers, not to say home and do NOTHING for that would deny the grace of God and sovernignty of God and suggest that preaching saves.






I wonder how you so dogmatically KNOW that? Is there a Scripture that states that? I do think of the one that says, "baptism now saves you" but I suspect you have a certain spin on that... but I can't think of a verse that says "billions who have been baptized are spending eternity in hell." But yes, I SUSPECT it's POSSIBLE that many (although not billions) who have been to a Billy Graham Crusade are now in hell..... does that mean the Word cannot be used by God for His purposes? That Billy Graham was causing God's grace to be denied and denouncing God's sovernigty. Or maybe Judas is in hell.... does that make Jesus' ministry to him invalid?






No one on the planet Earth has ever said that administering Baptism PER SE saves. Any more than any one on the planet Earth said that teaching the Gospel PER SE saves. But I disagree that the Bible states, "Go... baptize.... teach.... but this is a complete waste of time, of no value and CANNOT be used by God and denies the grace and soverignty of God but you are commanded to do it anyway." Yes, we have verses like "Baptism now saves you" and "Faith comes by hearing" (and many similar) but NONE that say what you are - that going.... baptizing....teaching does nothing, is a waste of time, cannot be used by God, denies God's grace."






Oh, believe me, it has sunk into everyone's cranium, lol. It's just you offered NOTHING WHATSOEVER to support your position. Just echoing the Anabaptist spin......

NO ONE EVER HAS SAID that applying water - per se - saves. Jesus saves. How many times must this be said (we're on what... page 74?) before that sinks in, my esteemed and respected friend?

You've offered NOTHING that indicates that going... baptizing.... teaching or ANY command of God is "a waste of time, meaningless, unusable to God, a denial of God's grace and soverignty, a denial of Jesus as Savior. Nothing to indicate that we are commanded to NOT baptize and teach with water and the Word but rather to immerse them under the Holy Spirit, that we can't do anything until they reach the age of X and first document that they are already born again, regenerated, saved and believing, that doing as Christ commands indicates that we don't believe Jesus saves. And friend, there is NOTHING to support your idea of two baptisms, the Bible specifically and verbatim says "there is one baptism."




- Josiah
Again...keep it short, I don't read tome's.
Josiah, do you struggle with reading comprehension because you say things I don't write, but attribute them to me.
Here's what we know from Mathew 28.
Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We only know what Jesus commanded. We do not read about any mystical regeneration happening with baptism. We know that the command is to GO. We know that as we go we make disciples of all nations. When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures.
That is what we read. We don't add to it. We don't subtract from it. We don't parrot a denomination or a tradition. We read it. We take it for what it says.
I will not run down some historical tradition that you desperately want to invoke. I will stick with what God's word says and I encourage you to do the same.
 
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Imalive

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Baptism is never with water alone. Baptism is always "water and the Spirit".

Yes but I mean does that text mean that water from that one baptism which is actually a double one, Jesus got up out of the water and the Spirit descended on Him, so that water or other water, cause if it means that water then noone can be born again w out it, which is not true I hope for the old testament saints.
 

Josiah

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Yes but I mean does that text mean that water from that one baptism which is actually a double one, Jesus got up out of the water and the Spirit descended on Him, so that water or other water, cause if it means that water then noone can be born again w out it, which is not true I hope for the old testament saints.

I'd be careful here..... Jesus' baptism was a JEWISH thing (one of 3 different types of Baptisms the Jews performed).... This thread I think is about Christian baptism.

The Bible specifically and verbatim says "there is one baptism" (well, one CHRISTIAN one, after Jesus instituted it) so IMO there can't be two different ones: one involving water but no Word or Spirit or anything else, and one involving the Spirit (etc.?) but NOT water. Yes, MennoSota is right - the word RARELY can mean a purely spiritual thing, a symbolic meaning - but clearly that's not the case with this Rite, Sacrament, Ordinance, Ritual (or however you want to think of IT), we're clearly talking about a person having water applied to them with the Word. And again, since there cannot be a separate "Baptism of the Spirit" since "there is one baptism" that gives a lot of credence to MC's point that baptism involves water, word and Spirit. And yes, that IS the way EVERYONE understood the verses he is quoting until the Anabaptist denomination was invented in the 16th Century, MC is giving the historic, orthodox (and until the mid 1500's) universal understanding (of course, yes, that ALONE doesn't make it right).


See post 760
 

Josiah

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Here's what we know from Mathew 28.
Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We only know what Jesus commanded.

Okay.

Then nothing about this being a waste of time, of no value, prohibited for those under the age of X, prohibited for those who have not first documented/proven their born again status and justification. Nothing about how God cannot use any of this because it would deny God's grace and soverignty. Nothing about two baptism. Nothing about doing this without water or the word but rather immersing them under the Holy Spirit.



When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures.


Let's see, you claim Jesus said (adding nothing.... deleting nothing) Matthew 28:19-20: When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures


I know nothing of these magical "when" and "then" and "new disciples" you inserted and add.

You PROVE you add MUCH.... while insisting, foundationally, you add nothing.



That is what we read. We don't add to it


Then...

Remove the "then" you added.

Remove the "when" you added.

Remove the "new disciples" you added.

And for points made earlier in this thread by several....

Remove the "but thou canst go... baptize.... teach.... if they are not yet X years old and have not previously documented and proven their born again status and justification... and if you do this you are denying God's grace, that Jesus ALONE saves and the soverignty of God."

Remove the "but don't use water or the word just immerse them under the Holy Spirit."

Remove the "God cannot use our going or baptizing or teaching."

Remove the "Those under the age of X don't need justification or forgiveness for they have no sin."


It seems to me you just proved you added a LOT (and subtracted plenty).




Pax Christi


- Josiah




.
 
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Imalive

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1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Cambridge Commentary on the Bible

1 John 5:6
This is he that came] Closely connected with what precedes: This Son of God is He that came. The identity of the historic person Jesus with the eternal Son of God is once more insisted upon as the central and indispensable truth of the Christian faith. Faith in this truth is the only faith that can overcome the world and give eternal life. And it is a truth attested by witness of the highest and most extraordinary kind.

by water and blood] Literally, by means of or through water and blood. This is the most perplexing passage in the Epistle and one of the most ]​


They think way too complicated. The Kingdom is for kids to understand. How did Jesus come in the world? Mary got pregnant.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
So He came by flesh, water, natural birth and Spirit.
So if water here means that He got a body, then it's about natural birth w Nicodemus too.
So how do you get born again? You get born from the Spirit.

In the last verse He doesnt even say from water and Spirit:

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​
 

MoreCoffee

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They think way too complicated. The Kingdom is for kids to understand. ...

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
 

MennoSota

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Okay.

Then nothing about this being a waste of time, of no value, prohibited for those under the age of X, prohibited for those who have not first documented/proven their born again status and justification. Nothing about how God cannot use any of this because it would deny God's grace and soverignty. Nothing about two baptism. Nothing about doing this without water or the word but rather immersing them under the Holy Spirit.






Let's see, you claim Jesus said (adding nothing.... deleting nothing) Matthew 28:19-20: When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures


I know nothing of these magical "when" and "then" and "new disciples" you inserted and add.

You PROVE you add MUCH.... while insisting, foundationally, you add nothing.






Then...

Remove the "then" you added.

Remove the "when" you added.

Remove the "new disciples" you added.

And for points made earlier in this thread by several....

Remove the "but thou canst go... baptize.... teach.... if they are not yet X years old and have not previously documented and proven their born again status and justification... and if you do this you are denying God's grace, that Jesus ALONE saves and the soverignty of God."

Remove the "but don't use water or the word just immerse them under the Holy Spirit."

Remove the "God cannot use our going or baptizing or teaching."

Remove the "Those under the age of X don't need justification or forgiveness for they have no sin."


It seems to me you just proved you added a LOT (and subtracted plenty).




Pax Christi


- Josiah




.
What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Is there anything in the passage about infants? Is there anything about regeneration via baptism? Let's stick to the passage. Don't deflect or run off on a tangent. Just stick with what is being said by Jesus.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
Okay.

Then nothing about this being a waste of time, of no value, prohibited for those under the age of X, prohibited for those who have not first documented/proven their born again status and justification. Nothing about how God cannot use any of this because it would deny God's grace and soverignty. Nothing about two baptism. Nothing about doing this without water or the word but rather immersing them under the Holy Spirit.






Let's see, you claim Jesus said (adding nothing.... deleting nothing) Matthew 28:19-20: When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures


I know nothing of these magical "when" and "then" and "new disciples" you inserted and add.

You PROVE you add MUCH.... while insisting, foundationally, you add nothing.






Then...

Remove the "then" you added.

Remove the "when" you added.

Remove the "new disciples" you added.


And for points "you all" made earlier in this thread by several....

Remove the "but thou canst go... baptize.... teach.... if they are not yet X years old and have not previously documented and proven their born again status and justification... and if you do this you are denying God's grace, that Jesus ALONE saves and the soverignty of God."

Remove the "but don't use water or the word just immerse them under the Holy Spirit."

Remove the "God cannot use our going or baptizing or teaching."

Remove the "Those under the age of X don't need justification or forgiveness for they have no sin."


It seems to me you just proved you added a LOT (and subtracted plenty).




.

What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?



You CLAIM that "we all" add nothing and subtract nothing from Matthew 28:19-20

Then, IMO, you went on to PROVE - quite dramatically - that you all ADD very much.

We can move our curser over the Scripture reference, Matthew 28:19-20 Then compare it to what "you all" insist is what Jesus stated - with NOTHING added and NOTHING deleted - just and only exactly and verbatim what Jesus specifically states, which "you all" insist is: When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures


I think all can see if you all have added or deleted anything, if your foundational argument - we must not ADD or DELETE anything is true or no, something "you all" do or not.




Is there anything in the passage about infants?


I didn't say there was, I also didn't say there's anything in it about gender or nationality or race or language or eye color or hair color or weight or IQ or education or citizenship; I'm not the one inserting a prohibition; I'm not the one inserting all these magical, invisible, dogmatic limitations, I'm not the one saying, "But thou canst NOT go... baptize... teach X".


Friend, one of the (few) other commands of Jesus to the Church is "The Great Commandment" Love, even as I first loved you. Now, to follow your apologetic, we are forbidden to love African Americans or Republicans or Canadians or women or dog owners because nowhere does the verse say we are to, it just says "love." Or the command to forgive the penitent, your apologetic would be "but not if they have blue eyes because it says nothing about folks with blue eyes!" Friend, IMO, it would be you adding and deleting from the text. I think your premise, your apologetic is faulty.... in fact, it's the identical thing you are accusing MC of doing.



Is there anything about regeneration via baptism? Let's stick to the passage.


It does connect making believers, going, baptizing and teaching...... And of course Scripture tells us "Baptism now saves you." But you all have tried to change the issue to whether the means of grace ALWAYS results in receiving faith and justification - a point I've never made.

Is there anything about what "you all" have insisted? "Going... baptizing... teaching.... is a waste of time, of no spiritual value.... these cannot be used by God and cannot have any benefit from God.... doing as commanded denies the Grace of God and the teaching that Christ alone saves and the soverignty of God" and all the other things "you all" have stated in this thread and elsewhere?

Is there anything about "but thou canst go, baptize and teach unless and until said recipient is over the age of X and has attained X level of eduation and has documented his/her born again status and justification? You know, as has been argued in this thread?




Just stick with what is being said by Jesus.


I'm okay with that. But with what he said, not the many radical additions you insist on inserting and all the limitations and prohibitions and exclusions "you all" insist on making.




Thank you.


- Josiah




.
 
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MennoSota

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You CLAIM that "we" "add nothing and subtract nothing from Matthew 28:19-20 "

Then, IMO, you went on to PROVE - quite dramatically - that you all ADD very much.

We can move our curser over the Scripture reference, Matthew 28:19-20 Then compare it to what you all claim is what Jesus is commanding - with NOTHING added and NOTHING deleted just and only exactly and verbatim what Jesus specifically states, which you all insist is: When we have made disciples, we baptize them in the name of the triune God. We then teach the disciples all that is in the scriptures


I think all can see if you all have added or deleted anything, if your foundational argument - we must not ADD or DELETE anything is true or no, something "you all" do or not.






I didn't say there was, I also didn't say there's anything in her about gender or nationality or race or language or eye color or hair color or IQ or education or citizenship; I'm not the one inserting a prohibition; I'm not the one inserting all these magical, invisible limitations.

Friend, one of the (few) other commands of Jesus to the Church is "The Great Commandment" Love, even as I first loved you. Now, to follow your apologetic, we are forbidden to love African Americans or Republicans or Canadians or women or dog owners because nowhere does the verse say we are to, it just says "love."






It does connect making believers, going, baptizing and teaching...... And of course Scripture tells us "Baptism now saves you." But you all have tried to change the issue to whether the means of grace ALWAYS results in receiving faith and justification - a point I've never made.

Is there anything about what "you all" have insisted? "Going... baptizing... teaching.... is a waste of time, of no spiritual value.... these cannot be used by God and cannot have any benefit from God.... doing as commanded denies the Grace of God and the teaching that Christ alone saves and the soverignty of God" and all the other things "you all" have stated in this thread and elsewhere?

Is there anything about "but thou canst go, baptize and teach unless and until said recipient is over the age of X and has attained X level of eduation and has documented his/her born again status and justification? You know, as has been argued in this thread?







I'm okay with that. But with what he said, not the many radical additions you insist on inserting and all the limitations and prohibitions and exclusions you insist on making.



Thank you.


- Josiah




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What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?

[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Is there anything in the passage about infants? Is there anything about regeneration via baptism? Let's stick to the passage. Don't deflect or run off on a tangent. Just stick with what is being said by Jesus.
 

Josiah

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What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?

NOT AT ALL what "you all" insist. You proved it.

See post 774.



Is there anything in the passage about infants? Is there anything about regeneration via baptism? Let's stick to the passage. Don't deflect or run off on a tangent. Just stick with what is being said by Jesus.

I guess you didn't read it.... see post 774.




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MennoSota

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NOT AT ALL what "you all" insist. You proved it.

See post 774.





I guess you didn't read it.... see post 774.




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What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?

[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Is there anything in the passage about infants? Is there anything about regeneration via baptism? Let's stick to the passage. Don't deflect or run off on a tangent. Just stick with what is being said by Jesus.
 

MennoSota

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1 Peter 3:18-22
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
[19]So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—
[20]those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
[21]And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
[22]Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.

Does the context teach salvation via baptism? What does the text say?
 

MennoSota

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1 Peter 3:18-22
[18]Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
[19]So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—
[20]those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
[21]And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
[22]Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his authority.

Does the context teach salvation via baptism? What does the text say?
Now Peter sees a comparison between the waters of the flood and the waters of baptism. Verse 21 is the key verse: "And corresponding to that [the water of the flood], baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Now there are some denominations that love this verse because it seems at first to support the view called "baptismal regeneration." That is, baptism does something to the candidate: it saves by bringing about new birth. So, for example, one of the baptismal liturgies for infants says, "Seeing now, dearly beloved brethren, that this child is regenerate, and grafted into the body of Christ's Church, let us give thanks."

Now the problem with this is that Peter seems very aware that his words are open to dangerous misuse. This is why, as soon as they are out of his mouth, as it were, he qualifies them lest we take them the wrong way. In verse 21 he does say, "Baptism now saves you" - that sounds like the water has a saving effect in and of itself apart from faith. He knows that is what it sounds like and so he adds immediately, "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (Or your version might have: "the pledge of a good conscience toward God").

But the point seems to be this: When I speak of baptism saving, Peter says, I don't mean that the water, immersing the body and cleansing the flesh, is of any saving effect; what I mean is that, insofar as baptism is "an appeal to God for a good conscience," (or is "a pledge of a good conscience toward God"), it saves. Paul said in Romans 10:13, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord - everyone who appeals to the Lord - will be saved." Paul does not mean that faith alone fails to save. He means that faith calls on God. That's what faith does. Now Peter is saying, "Baptism is the God-ordained, symbolic expression of that call to God. It is an appeal to God - either in the form of repentance or in the form of commitment.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/what-is-baptism-and-does-it-save
 

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Baptism in water is for ppl who are already saved or are coming simultaneously in a profession of faith. [/quote]


I see absolutely nothing in Scripture (or even in the first 1500 years of Christianity) that remotely suggests such.


It is not a requirement for salvation. Itt does not add anything to salvation.

Okay. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, going, teaching....



Salvation is by faith in the shed blood, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Yup! Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

But I don't accept that Christians are commanded to do NOTING toward the unbeliever - don't love, don't care, don't go, don't preach, don't teach, don't reach out, don't baptize, don't do ANYTHING because salvation is solely of and by Christ.



Water baptism is a symbolic testament to that.


NOTHING from Scripture (or anything else for that matter) has been offered to remotely suggest that. Anymore than for going or loving or sharing or teaching or evangelizing unbelievers.



its not a necessity FOR salvation

I agree. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, sharing, going, teaching or evangelizing unbelivers.




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But, as with any religious ceremony, different ppl are raised to believe different things, or they may come to certain beliefs as they age. I think the main thing with any of it, is, is the reason for doing it to show faith and praise the Lord Jesus Christ, in response to His love, His gift of salvation, and all the other gifts He gives us?

Or is it in order to get salvation, keep salvation, or somehow appease Him for one reason or another?
If it's the latter, thats missing the mark at best, (but may be from an honest misunderstanding.)
Hallelujah, anyhow, if Jesus is being proclaimed, right?!
...but it might also be something very dangerous both to believe and to teach, thats not a good idea.


If it's the former, (a response to the gift of salvation)
then :hearts:praise the Lord! :amen:
 
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