the meaning of Baptism

[Lamb]

Staff Notice:

Once again I must remind members here that we are Christians and are to treat other members as if they were made in God's image...because they are. If you wouldn't say it to God, don't say it to any other members. Don't make personal comments! Address the context.

 

[Josiah]

What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?

Not REMOTELY what "you all" insists it states..... as you yourself dramatically proved.

See post 774



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[MennoSota]

Not REMOTELY what "you all" insists it states..... as you yourself dramatically proved.

See post 774



.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm still waiting for you to just exegete the text. Put your commentaries away. Just read the text.

 

[Josiah]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm still waiting for you to just exegete the text. Put your commentaries away. Just read the text.

I did.

I noted what is OBVIOUS and UNDENIABLE.....

What you insist Jesus states is not what Jesus actually said.
You insisted "you all" ADD and SUBTRACT nothing
But then you added and subtracted MUCH.
Proving yourself wrong.

I addressed your questions... I know you said you don't read my "long tomes" but I did, so there's no need to keep echoing the same exact post to me.

See post 774.



.

 

[MennoSota]

I did.

I noted what is OBVIOUS and UNDENIABLE.....

What you insist Jesus states is not what Jesus actually said.
You insisted "you all" ADD and SUBTRACT nothing
But then you added and subtracted MUCH.
Proving yourself wrong.

I addressed your questions... I know you said you don't read my "long tomes" but I did, so there's no need to keep echoing the same exact post to me.

See post 774.



.

Put it in bullet points. I don't need to wade through unneeded and unbenificial opinions.

 

[user1234]

Baptism in water is for ppl who are already saved or are coming simultaneously in a profession of faith. It is not a requirement for salvation.
It does not add anything to salvation.

Salvation is by faith in the shed blood, death and resurrection of Jesus.
Water baptism is a symbolic testament to that.


Its a good thing, I personally recommend it, but its not a necessity FOR salvation.


Baptising a baby may be a nice ceremony of dedication, but it is also not a necessity
and is not effectual for the childs salvation, AND it might even be dangerous, if the child grows up and never comes to a saving faith in Jesus, but is assuming his water-baptism as a baby will save him.


But, as with any religious ceremony, different ppl are raised to believe different things, or they may come to certain beliefs as they age. I think the main thing with any of it, is, is the reason for doing it to show faith and praise the Lord Jesus Christ, in response to His love, His gift of salvation, and all the other gifts He gives us?

Or is it in order to get salvation, keep salvation, or somehow appease Him for one reason or another?
If it's the latter, thats missing the mark at best, (but may be from an honest misunderstanding.)
Hallelujah, anyhow, if Jesus is being proclaimed, right?!
...but it might also be something very dangerous both to believe and to teach, thats not a good idea.


If it's the former, (a response to the gift of salvation)
then :heartsraise the Lord! :amen:

In fact, Hallelujah, anyhow, anyhow!
I'm praising the Lord because He saved me.

Not because of baptisms, eucharists, repenting or confessing of sin, penances, titheings, offerings or cofferings, good deeds, bad deeds, no deeds, or any other thing, good or bad that could be added.

Jesus shed His blood and died for our sins ... my sins ... He was buried, and He rose from the grave. Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus for saving me! Amen.

 

[Josiah]

Put it in bullet points. I don't need to wade through unneeded and unbenificial opinions.

+ You said "you all" don't ADD or SUBTRACT anything from percisely what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20.
+ We can point our curser on the reference and on what "you all" insist Jesus said.
+ We see they are completely different.
+ We all can see "you all" ADDED much, changed much.
+ You proved yourself wrong.

To all your other constantly repeated questions to me, they've all been addressed. Over and over and over. Never once acknowledged, just your constant re-asking the same verbatim things. It's kind of insulting, my esteemed friend. I realize that I can't always respond to your many points in 10 or less words, I apologize, but that doesn't mean ergo you should ignore all replies to you because you don't read anything past so many words. I realize, my esteemed friend, you are very frustrated and very passionate - and that's okay. But we need to have conversations with respect and engagement, avoiding making fun of or flaming other posters.

I "get" your point of wanting NOW to focus on just The Great Commission, and that's fine - you may do that. But your insisting, very dogmatically, that all just stick to what Jesus said when it is OBVIOUS, proven by you yourself, that "you all" don't do that is, well, not appropriate. You are VERY creatively "spinning" this - adding a LOT and subtracting a LOT - all in ways unheard of for 1500 years of Christianity... and that alone would be perhaps not so remarkable (you are giving the Anabaptist denomination "spin") but then you are rebuking MC for doing what it seems you are doing FAR more. IF you really want to just go by Matthew 28:19-20, restricting all to those two verses, that's far. But you don't. You insist that "you all" add a LOT of stuff, it seems to me a lot more than MC is adding (but of course, he's not limiting the discussion to two verses).

I KNOW you are very, very passionate about this. And I AM curious how someone who is so strongly monergist can be so anti-going, baptising, teaching. But to be honest - my esteemed friend - you just seem to be echoing - over and over and over and over - Anabaptist points that seem to conflict with your own Monergism. And confusing me even more is your insistence on just sticking to the words of Scripture when you keep proving (rather dramatically) "you all" don't AT ALL do. I see you strongly rebuking MC (and I don't 100% agree with him either here) for the very things you seem to be doing. IF that's true, can you back up enough to see that and grow? Or if it's not true, will you (after 77 pages or whatever we're on, lol) can you show that?

What's frustrating to ME is I see several (including me) posting to you and it seems you aren't even reading them. And you just seem to be increasingly frustrated and beginning to say things very out of character for you. CH is not really a debate forum, in the sense of some, it's a discussion forum. Positions may be held - firmly and passionately - but people need to be respected and listened to. You are a smart, informed, articulate man.... I like when you discuss things. MAYBE it would be helpful for you to "take a break" from this thread? There are MANY other great ones (some "buried" on back pages - a bunch of them started by me, lol)...


See post 774.



Thank you!


- Josiah



.

 

[MennoSota]

+ You said "you all" don't ADD or SUBTRACT anything from percisely what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20.
+ We can point our curser on the reference and on what "you all" insist Jesus said.
+ We see they are completely different.
+ We all can see "you all" ADDED much, changed much.
+ You proved yourself wrong.

To all your other constantly repeated questions to me, they've all been addressed. Over and over and over. Never once acknowledged, just your constant re-asking the same verbatim things. It's kind of insulting, my esteemed friend. I realize that I can't always respond to your many points in 10 or less words, I apologize, but that doesn't mean ergo you should ignore all replies to you because you don't read anything past so many words. I realize, my esteemed friend, you are very frustrated and very passionate - and that's okay. But we need to have conversations with respect and engagement, avoiding making fun of or flaming other posters.

I "get" your point of wanting NOW to focus on just The Great Commission, and that's fine - you may do that. But your insisting, very dogmatically, that all just stick to what Jesus said when it is OBVIOUS, proven by you yourself, that "you all" don't do that is, well, not appropriate. You are VERY creatively "spinning" this - adding a LOT and subtracting a LOT - all in ways unheard of for 1500 years of Christianity... and that alone would be perhaps not so remarkable (you are giving the Anabaptist denomination "spin") but then you are rebuking MC for doing what it seems you are doing FAR more. IF you really want to just go by Matthew 28:19-20, restricting all to those two verses, that's far. But you don't. You insist that "you all" add a LOT of stuff, it seems to me a lot more than MC is adding (but of course, he's not limiting the discussion to two verses).

I KNOW you are very, very passionate about this. And I AM curious how someone who is so strongly monergist can be so anti-going, baptising, teaching. But to be honest - my esteemed friend - you just seem to be echoing - over and over and over and over - Anabaptist points that seem to conflict with your own Monergism. And confusing me even more is your insistence on just sticking to the words of Scripture when you keep proving (rather dramatically) "you all" don't AT ALL do. I see you strongly rebuking MC (and I don't 100% agree with him either here) for the very things you seem to be doing. IF that's true, can you back up enough to see that and grow? Or if it's not true, will you (after 77 pages or whatever we're on, lol) can you show that?

What's frustrating to ME is I see several (including me) posting to you and it seems you aren't even reading them. And you just seem to be increasingly frustrated and beginning to say things very out of character for you. CH is not really a debate forum, in the sense of some, it's a discussion forum. Positions may be held - firmly and passionately - but people need to be respected and listened to. You are a smart, informed, articulate man.... I like when you discuss things.



Thank you.


- Josiah

See post 774.

Josiah I am not going to read all you write. You need to know that. Make it short and share your exegesis of the text. If you can't do that then don't talk with me. I'm not going to move off the point. God's word is worth talking about. The other stuff you want to bring up is of no concern to me.
Short, concise, no more than two short paragraphs. You can do it.

 

[user1234]

Baptism in water* is for ppl who are already saved or are coming simultaneously in a profession of faith. *added- To be clear, the Christian baptism, hence, believers in Jesus

I see absolutely nothing in Scripture (or even in the first 1500 years of Christianity) that remotely suggests such.

So you think it's for unbelievers then? Interesting




Okay. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, going, teaching....

Right, us doing those ↑ things cant earn salvation, they are not a necessity FOR salvation...they SHOULD follow salvation, but that's a separate issue, just like water-baptism.





Yup! Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

But I don't accept that Christians are commanded to do NOTHING toward the unbeliever - don't love, don't care, don't go, don't preach, don't teach, don't reach out, don't baptize, don't do ANYTHING because salvation is solely of and by Christ.

Yes, and That's great! Btw, If you find somebody that teaches that we shouldnt love, care, etc., bring em here...we'll beat em up (errr, I mean...) set em straight! We can let them know theyre teaching lies. (Hmmm, except for the part you said about baptising unbelievers, bc that would be silly to have somebody say they dont believe in Jesus, and then baptize em anyway, right?)






NOTHING from Scripture (or anything else for that matter) has been offered to remotely suggest that. Anymore than for going or loving or sharing or teaching or evangelizing unbelievers. I disagree, I think we SHOULD love unbelievers





I agree. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, sharing, going, teaching or evangelizing unbelivers.Teaching? Unbelievers? That depends. We can TRY to teach unbelievers about Jesus, but that would really be evangelizing. Until they become believers.
Generally, unbelievers arent interested in being taught stuff by believers.







But, as with any religious ceremony, different ppl are raised to believe different things, or they may come to certain beliefs as they age. I think the main thing with any of it, is, is the reason for doing it to show faith and praise the Lord Jesus Christ, in response to His love, His gift of salvation, and all the other gifts He gives us?

Or is it in order to get salvation, keep salvation, or somehow appease Him for one reason or another?
If it's the latter, thats missing the mark at best, (but may be from an honest misunderstanding.)
Hallelujah, anyhow, if Jesus is being proclaimed, right?!
...but that might also be something very dangerous both to believe and to teach, thats not a good idea.


If it's the former, (a response to the gift of salvation)
then :heartsraise the Lord! :amen:[/QUOTE]

 

[MennoSota]

A monergist who let's the Bible say what it says with no concern for denomination or tradition. Is that hard to believe?
My passion is God's word. So far those who promote infant baptism and baptismal regeneration have provided no legitimate exegetical proof for their position. No exegesis of Matthew 28. No exegesis of John 3. No exegesis of 1 Peter. No exegesis.
Lots of prooftexts out of context however. Lots of eisegesis.

 

[Josiah]

I see absolutely nothing in Scripture (or even in the first 1500 years of Christianity) that remotely suggests such.

So you think it's for unbelievers then? Interesting

Actually, I think the Great Commission and the Great Commandment are for CHRISTIANS to do. But yes, I think it applies to our lives toward non-believers, too.

Okay. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, going, teaching....

Right, us doing those ↑ things cant earn salvation, they are not a necessity FOR salvation...they SHOULD follow salvation, but that's a separate issue, just like water-baptism.

I don't believe that OUR loving or giving or serving or caring or sharing our preaching or teaching or evangelizing or our doing or thinking or saying ANYTHING saves ANYONE.

But I also don't think that makes our loving, giving, serving, caring, sharing, preaching, teaching, evangelizing wrong or bad or sinful or a waste of time or of no value or meaningless or useless or of no consequence to God and unusable by God. I don't think Jesus and Paul were wrong to love and care and reach out and teach - just because none of those things are our Savior.

Yup! Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

But I don't accept that Christians are commanded to do NOTHING toward the unbeliever - don't love, don't care, don't go, don't preach, don't teach, don't reach out, don't baptize, don't do ANYTHING because salvation is solely of and by Christ.

NOTHING from Scripture (or anything else for that matter) has been offered to remotely suggest that. Anymore than for going or loving or sharing or teaching or evangelizing unbelievers. I disagree, I think we SHOULD love unbelievers

Me, too. Even though no Scripture says to love blondes, I think we should love blondes because the command is to love (and there is no verse that says, "But thou canst NOT love blondes."

I agree. Same is true for loving, caring, serving, sharing, going, teaching or evangelizing unbelivers.Teaching? Unbelievers? That depends. We can TRY to teach unbelievers about Jesus, but that would really be evangelizing. Until they become believers.
Generally, unbelievers arent interested in being taught stuff by believers.

We are commanded to love, care, give, serve, go, baptize, teach...... I don't think the dead are ever interested in life. I think life is always a gift (and probably never requested by the DEAD). But we're pretty off topic, lol.....

 

[Josiah]

A monergist who let's the Bible say what it says with no concern for denomination or tradition. Is that hard to believe?

No, although "you all" are just parroting the Anabaptist position (since the mid 16th Century).

My passion is God's word. So far those who promote infant baptism and baptismal regeneration have provided no legitimate exegetical proof for their position. No exegesis of Matthew 28. No exegesis of John 3. No exegesis of 1 Peter. No exegesis.

Except you proved - rather boldly and dramatically - that "you all" ADD a LOT and DELETE a LOT. Indeed every single one of your points is from something 'you all' ADDED or DELETED and not found in what Jesus said at all. Even if we do what "you all" now demand: that we stick to Matthew 28:19-20.

It just seems.... ironic.... to me that you SO rebuke MC for stating things not SPECIALLY VERBATIM stated in Scripture (and sometimes you have a valid point, assuming its wrong to say something not VERBATIM STATED in Scripture).... but my esteem and respected friend, every point you've made in this tread seems based on things that are never stated. You went to some (amazing) lengths to PROVE that in your statement about Matthew 28:19-20 showing in clear words that you ADD a GREAT much to what Jesus actually said.... and if we take together the "you all" posts in this thread, NONE of the points is actually stated in Scripture, every one of them is from something ADDED or DELETED from what it verbatim states in Scripture.

I like you.... I tend to like what you have to say. You are an informed and generally thoughtful poster. I again think it would be helpful for you to step back and read (even long posts, lol), and consider..... And maybe it would be good to exit THIS thread for awhile - there are SO many good ones here!


See post 774.



Your friend, Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

No, although "you all" are just parroting the Anabaptist position (since the mid 16th Century).




Except you proved - rather boldly and dramatically - that "you all" ADD a LOT and DELETE a LOT. Indeed every single one of your points is from something 'you all' ADDED or DELETED and not found in what Jesus said at all. Even if we do what "you all" now demand: that we stick to Matthew 28:19-20.


See post 774.

I have no idea why you keep saying "you all" and I don't care about post#774. I also don't care about anabaptists or lutherans or calvinists or roman catholics. I care about God's word and rightly dividing God's word. Do you care about that? If you do, then we can address the bible's use of the word baptizo. If you don't, then we have nothing to talk about.
Josiah, I quoted passages. Show me where I edit God's word. Go to my quotes of scripture and show how I change the translation. I don't think you can do it.

 

[MennoSota]

Actually, I think the Great Commission and the Great Commandment are for CHRISTIANS to do. But yes, I think it applies to our lives toward non-believers, too.






I don't believe that OUR loving or giving or serving or caring or sharing our preaching or teaching or evangelizing or our doing or thinking or saying ANYTHING saves ANYONE.

But I also don't think that makes our loving, giving, serving, caring, sharing, preaching, teaching, evangelizing wrong or bad or sinful or a waste of time or of no value or meaningless or useless or of no consequence to God and unusable by God. I don't think Jesus and Paul were wrong to love and care and reach out and teach - just because none of those things are our Savior.







Me, too. Even though no Scripture says to love blondes, I think we should love blondes because the command is to love (and there is no verse that says, "But thou canst NOT love blondes."








We are commanded to love, care, give, serve, go, baptize, teach...... I don't think the dead are ever interested in life. I think life is always a gift (and probably never requested by the DEAD). But we're pretty off topic, lol.....

We aren't commanded to baptize non-believers. So far, you have never shown how infants are born believing in the shed blood of Jesus for the atonement of their sins. Is their a Bible passage that says all children are born believers?
Psalms 51:5-7
[5]For I was born a sinner— *** yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
[6]But you desire honesty from the womb, *** teaching me wisdom even there.
[7]Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean; *** wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

Born believers or not?

 

[Josiah]

We aren't commanded to baptize non-believers

We are told to go... baptize.... teach. As you yourself proved, there's NOTHING about "only believers" "only those over the age of X" "only those who can first document and prove their born again status and justification" "only those with X level of education" "only White people" And there's nothing about "but its a waste of time" "but don't do this with water and the word but rather you must immerse them under the Holy Spirit."

We are told to love. I agree, it doesn't say to love Republicans or Blondes but I don't agree that ERGO we are forbidden to love Republicans or blondes.

So far, you have never shown how infants are born believing in the shed blood of Jesus for the atonement of their sins.

Because I never said they do.

But I believe they can. I don't tell God what He can't do. And I note that John the Baptist believed even before he was born.

And there is no verse that states, "But thou canst NOT love or go or teach or baptize any who have not yet attained the age of X and canst not document that they are justified and art born again."

You SAID, you STRESSED, you all just go by the words of Scripture and that "you all" (as you put it) do not ADD or SUBTRACT anything. Then you rather dramatically PROVED for us, in black and white, using the verse you demanded to use, that you ADD very, very much. Indeed, every single point you've raised - every one on this topic - is not found in Scripture but has been ADDED by "you all."


See posts 774 and 792



.

 

[MennoSota]

We are told to go... baptize.... teach. As you yourself proved, there's NOTHING about "only believers" "only those over the age of X" "only those who can first document and prove their born again status and justification" "only those with X level of education" "only White people" And there's nothing about "but its a waste of time" "but don't do this with water and the word but rather you must immerse them under the Holy Spirit."

We are told to love. I agree, it doesn't say to love Republicans or Blondes but I don't agree that ERGO we are forbidden to love Republicans or blondes.




Because I never said they do.

But I believe they can. I don't tell God what He can't do. And I note that John the Baptist believed even before he was born.

And there is no verse that states, "But thou canst NOT love or go or teach or baptize any who have not yet attained the age of X and canst not document that they are justified and art born again."

You SAID, you STRESSED, you all just go by the words of Scripture and that "you all" (as you put it) do not ADD or SUBTRACT anything. Then you rather dramatically PROVED for us, in black and white, using the verse you demanded to use, that you ADD very, very much. Indeed, every single point you've raised - every one on this topic - is not found in Scripture but has been ADDED by "you all."


See posts 774 and 792



.

Are we commanded to baptize non-believers. Yes or No. That's all you need to answer.

 

[user1234]

But I also don't think that makes our loving, giving, serving, caring, sharing, preaching, teaching, evangelizing wrong or bad or sinful or a waste of time or of no value or meaningless or useless or of no consequence to God and unusable by God. I don't think Jesus and Paul were wrong to love and care and reach out and teach - just because none of those things are our Savior.

Hi Josiah
I'm not sure why, but you seem to feel the need to repeat that ↑ same point quite often here, but if this is the kind of thing youre being taught in church, or if you have a home-group or something where ppl are repeatedly telling you that its wrong to love and give and serve and care and share, etc., then I suggest you go to THEM and evangelize to THEM if theyre unsaved, or correct THEM from scripture if maybe theyre saved but somehow dont know that they're supposed to love God and others.

Because repeating it here, where NO ONE says we shouldnt love and do all those nice things, makes no sense...Youre starting to sound like a school principal that feels a need to go into a classroom everyday and tell the kids its wrong to steal the teachers chalk.

But the teacher insists her students are very well behaved and never steal her chalk.
Yet the next day and every day the principal visits the class and says, Now students, its wrong to steal the teachers chalk.

Eventually, the kids (and the teacher) are gonna think the principal's a bit screwy, because none of them steal chalk, they dont tell others to steal chalk, they never said that it's right to steal chalk, they dont even THINK about stealing chalk it until the principal comes in and says its wrong to steal the chalk.


NOBODY IN THAT CLASS IS SAYING ITS RIGHT TO STEAL THE CHALK,
(just like no one here is saying it's wrong to love, care, share, etc., OKAY?

(Eventually the teacher, Miss Imalive , may have to introduce the principal to her new jacket.)

 

[Josiah]

Hi Josiah
I'm not sure why, but you seem to feel the need to repeat that ↑ same point quite often here, but if this is the kind of thing youre being taught in church, or if you have a home-group or something where ppl are repeatedly telling you that its wrong to love and give and serve and care and share, etc., then I suggest you go to THEM and evangelize to THEM if theyre unsaved, or correct THEM from scripture if maybe theyre saved but somehow dont know that they're supposed to love God and others.

Friend, I by no means meant to convey or imply YOU say such - I'm just picking up on what's been posted in these 78 PAGES of stuff - the defenses for withholding the Calls of Jesus from some people.

We have lots of commands. And I think that generally, it's a bad rubric to assume that they don't apply UNLESS each possible case is spelled out. "Thou shalt not kill" does not need to list every person ever to live to apply to them, we shouldn't say "but it's okay to kill slaves because it doesn't say we can't kill slaves." Get my point? Follow?

ONE of the arguments here is that we are not to apply the Great Commission ("Go.... baptize.... teach.....") to those under the age of X or under the IQ of X because the verse doesn't say "And this applies to those under the age of X and IQ of X." I'm disagreeing with that whole persistent, stubborn argument here. I'm disagreeing that we can't follow the Commands of Jesus if we can't prove they will result in them being in heaven. I'm disagreeing with the very persistent argument that Scripture STATES that we can't apply the Great Commission unless and until they can document they are born again, regenerate, justified believers. It seems to ME there are a LOT of prohibitions, limitations, denials being forced onto the Calls of Jesus - and I'm noting their arguments are based on what they ADD or SUBTRACT from those Calls, not from what Jesus actually said/commanded/called us to do.
Follow? Make sense? I NEVER ask anyone to agree with me (well, sometimes I like those who work for me to agree, lol) but I succeed if I'm at least kinda understood.

NOBODY IN THAT CLASS IS SAYING ITS RIGHT TO STEAL THE CHALK,
(just like no one here is saying it's wrong to love, care, share, etc., OKAY?

But some ARE saying it's okay to prohibit the commands of Jesus to SOME because THEY don't think they should be so blessed. That IS the discussion here.

And it's also true that no one is saying that our loving or giving or going or baptizing or teaching saves anyone or even mandates that they will be saved. We've had a number of conversations on that.




.

 

[user1234]

Reply to post #798

Ok, but I think youre point about you disagree that we shouldnt love, shouldnt care, shouldnt share, etc., has gotten REALLY over-worked, plus it's very mis-directed.
By repeating it over and over in this thread, where it's basically been the same handful of ppl contributing, is sounding more and more accusatory (like my example with the school principal)...Ppl dont need to keep being told to stop doing something theyre not doing in the first place.

Is there anyone in this thread that has posted that its wrong to love, care, give, do those things, etc., that you keep listing? If so, then maybe its time to name names, so we can ALL approach the person directly, and gently correct them from scripture to restore them, and ask them to please stop using this thread to teach ppl that its wrong to love, etc.

But honestly, I havent seen anyone here teach that.
In fact, I havent seen anyone say that its wrong to water-baptize others, only that its wrong to INSIST on water-baptism as a necessary requirement FOR (i.e. IN ORDER TO RECEIVE) salvation.

Baptizing babies in water for salvation is another debateable issue, but to equate a person who says its wrong, or you shouldnt do it, or it isnt supported by scripture, with a person saying its wrong to love or care or share, isn't right.

 

[Lamb]

Are we commanded to baptize non-believers. Yes or No. That's all you need to answer.

We're commanded by Jesus to baptize all nations. yes or no