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the meaning of Baptism

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MennoSota

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John the baptist had faith in the whomb.

And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.


Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. The text doesn't say anything about her baby having faith.
 

MennoSota

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I'm really not sure why you would ask if David baptized his son since baptism wasn't instituted at that time. The Jewish baths were not the same thing as the Christian baptism that Jesus ordained. So your question is actually ridiculous.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word. The Word is with the water in baptism. God's Word does not return to Him empty. Follow that line instead of following what your Baptist preacher told you because God's promises are real.

Would you go to a beach and spash people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and then expect that "the Word is with the water" in baptism?
You are twisting God's word mightily in order to make it fit your pretext.
Let God's word say what it says instead of forcing your denominations bad tradition upon the text.
 

Imalive

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Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. The text doesn't say anything about her baby having faith.

You can't be filled w the Spirit w out faith.

But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

And Jesus was filled w the Spirit from the whomb, not baptized in the Spirit though, that was after His baptism, 30 years later. He didn't do miracles before that.
 

MennoSota

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You can't be filled w the Spirit w out faith.

But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

And Jesus was filled w the Spirit from the whomb, not baptized in the Spirit though, that was after His baptism, 30 years later. He didn't do miracles before that.
Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit. Read the text.
Second, God chose his elect children before the foundation of the world. It is quite possible that John was redeemed at conception, but we don't know.
 

Imalive

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Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit. Read the text.
Second, God chose his elect children before the foundation of the world. It is quite possible that John was redeemed at conception, but we don't know.

This text says he would be filled w the Holy Spirit from his mothers whomb.

And Jesus said unto them, “Yea, have ye never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings Thou hast perfected praise’?”
 

Lamb

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Would you go to a beach and spash people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and then expect that "the Word is with the water" in baptism?
You are twisting God's word mightily in order to make it fit your pretext.
Let God's word say what it says instead of forcing your denominations bad tradition upon the text.

Your question shows you didn't pay attention to Jesus as he instructed the disciples. You forget that baptism and teaching go hand in hand so why would anyone want to baptize someone they wouldn't bother teaching afterward?
 

MennoSota

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This text says he would be filled w the Holy Spirit from his mothers whomb.

And Jesus said unto them, “Yea, have ye never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings Thou hast perfected praise’?”
You still cannot show infant baptism. The context is not supportive.
 

MennoSota

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Your question shows you didn't pay attention to Jesus as he instructed the disciples. You forget that baptism and teaching go hand in hand so why would anyone want to baptize someone they wouldn't bother teaching afterward?

After making disciples, which you conveniently forget. (Were Jesus disciples saved before or after the cross? Hint: think Judas)
Again, you cannot support infant baptism in the Bible and it is impossible to present baptism as a means of invoking God's grace.
You are clinging to a denominational tradition and not to God's word when discussing infant baptism.
 

Imalive

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You still cannot show infant baptism. The context is not supportive.

No I just said that if a baby or infant is reborn and filled w the Holy Spirit I think it can be baptized, but how do you know they are? John the baptist and Jesus were, but they didn't get baptized as a baby.
 

MoreCoffee

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After making disciples ...

The bible says make disciples. Then the bible tells you how to do it. Baptise and teach. Baptise comes first. By your method of proof texting argument that must mean first baptise and then later teach. That's what paedobaptists do; first baptise the baby and later teach obedience to Christ. Simple. Just remember the formula that Jesus gave. Matthew 28:19-20 Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: [20] Teaching them to keep all the rules which I have given you: and see, I am ever with you, even to the end of the world.

Simple. None of that weird word acrobatics that Credobaptists have to perform. Just read the passages and believe them. As it should be.

John 3:5 Jesus said in answer, Truly, I say to you, If a man's birth is not from water and from the Spirit, it is not possible for him to go into the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:3-9 Or are you without the knowledge that all we who had baptism into Christ Jesus, had baptism into his death? [4] We have been placed with him among the dead through baptism into death: so that as Christ came again from the dead by the glory of the Father, we, in the same way, might be living in new life. [5] For, if we have been made like him in his death, we will, in the same way, be like him in his coming to life again; [6] Being conscious that our old man was put to death on the cross with him, so that the body of sin might be put away, and we might no longer be servants to sin. [7] Because he who is dead is free from sin. [8] But if we are dead with Christ, we have faith that we will be living with him; [9] Having knowledge that because Christ has come back from the dead, he will never again go down to the dead; death has no more power over him.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the mercy of God our Saviour, and his love to man was seen, [5] Not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but in the measure of his mercy, he gave us salvation, through the washing of the new birth and the giving of new life in the Holy Spirit, [6] Which he gave us freely through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] So that, having been given righteousness through grace, we might have a part in the heritage, the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 3:18-22 Because Christ once went through pain for sins, the upright one taking the place of sinners, so that through him we might come back to God; being put to death in the flesh, but given life in the Spirit; [19] By whom he went to the spirits in prison, preaching to those [20] Who, in the days of Noah, went against God's orders; but God in his mercy kept back the punishment, while Noah got ready the ark, in which a small number, that is to say eight persons, got salvation through water: [21] And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead; [22] Who has gone into heaven, and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been put under his rule.

Baptism saves, it unites to Jesus Christ, it is one's death and resurrection in Christ, it enables one to enter the kingdom of God, it washes away one's sins. Simple enough for children to understand.

I've used these passages many times to discuss baptism with Jehovah's witnesses and always surprise them with what the bible really says about baptism and how important the bible says it is. Several that I have talked to have subsequently become Christians abandoning the errors of the Kingdom Hall and eventually finding the Church. God is good when the gospel is preached.
 

MennoSota

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Your question shows you didn't pay attention to Jesus as he instructed the disciples. You forget that baptism and teaching go hand in hand so why would anyone want to baptize someone they wouldn't bother teaching afterward?
Why would you baptize a non-Christian, which is what an infant is. If you are going to follow that precedent then go to the beach or the pool and start splashing!
 

MennoSota

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The bible says make disciples. Then the bible tells you how to do it. Baptise and teach. Baptise comes first.
Of course baptize comes first. Once God makes your disciples come to life in Christ, you baptize them.
Judas was a disciple of Jesus, was he regenrated? No, he wasn't.
Your insistence on pushing baptism before salvation is quite disappointing.
 

Albion

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You still cannot show infant baptism. .
Neither can we show a 15 year old being baptized.

By your standards, we should not baptize them either, since there is no explicit mention in Scripture of 15 year olds being baptized.
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course baptize comes first. Once God makes your disciples come to life in Christ, you baptize them.
Judas was a disciple of Jesus, was he regenrated? No, he wasn't.
Your insistence on pushing baptism before salvation is quite disappointing.

Baptism always comes before salvation. Always. No matter what you say it always comes before salvation. Nobody is saved until the day when God says "well done good and faithful servant".
 

MennoSota

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Neither can we show a 15 year old. By your standards, we should not baptize them either, since there is no explicit mention in Scripture of 15 year olds being baptized.
Nice try. A 15 year old can fully show that s/he has been redeemed. There is no way a newborn can show this.
Every instance of baptism in the Bible comes after the person has been made alive in Christ. Never do we see it in the opposite order. Never does baptism invoke God to extend grace. Why, then do people think it works that way with infants?
 

MennoSota

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Baptism always comes before salvation. Always. No matter what you say it always comes before salvation. Nobody is saved until the day when God says "well done good and faithful servant".

The problem with your assertion is that the Bible shows your assertion is entirely wrong.

What do you not understand about "chosen from before the foundation of the world"?
What do you not understand about "those my Father has given me I will in no way lose"?
MC, you and your church preach salvation by works. You remove grace, yet use the term by a bastard definition. You are the Judaiser in Galatians that Paul wishes would emasculate himself. Take your doctrine of works and leave. You know nothing about grace.
 

MoreCoffee

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The problem with your assertion is that the Bible shows your assertion is entirely wrong. ...

Jesus said unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He spoke the truth. Without baptism a person cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 

Imalive

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Jesus said unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. He spoke the truth. Without baptism a person cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The robber on the cross didnt get baptized.
If you believe and get baptized you will be saved. If you dont believe you will be condemned. Not: if you don't get baptized.
 

Imalive

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Baptism always comes before salvation. Always. No matter what you say it always comes before salvation. Nobody is saved until the day when God says "well done good and faithful servant".

It says have been

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yes and it also says work out your salvation and body, soul preserved. But baptism isn't before you get a new spirit.
 
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