the meaning of Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

OK then I can just do as I wish the rest of my life since I can do nothing and nothing is required? Once in His hands cant fall away? Dangerous and wrong message my friend

It is a dangerous and very wrong argument. You are right to point it out but don't expect any thanks from your interlocutors.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, you keep doing nothing and see how it goes.

God has redeemed me, MC. I have been made alive in Christ. It is wonderful. It goes great!
I also see that God calls me to preach reconciliation as His ambassador to rebels. Those rebels to whom God gives life (as He did for me) will respond. The rest will remain spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.

 

[Imalive]

That’s a good place to start since a dead person can do nothing else besides "nothing."
Once God makes them alive, however, then a person can do something.
It's all God, MC, and nothing of your doing. You're getting closer...

A blind and spiritually dead person can knock and seek. The lost son was dead. He could get up and walk back. If it is not given to someone they can not come to Him.

 

[MennoSota]

OK then I can just do as I wish the rest of my life since I can do nothing and nothing is required? Once in His hands cant fall away? Dangerous and wrong message my friend

What does Romans 6 tell us?
What does Romans 9 tell us?
Read those chapters and then we can discuss.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God has redeemed me, MC. I have been made alive in Christ. It is wonderful. It goes great!
I also see that God calls me to preach reconciliation as His ambassador to rebels. Those rebels to whom God gives life (as He did for me) will respond. The rest will remain spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.

Looks like more "works" to me. Better stop it before you're accused of synergism.

 

[MennoSota]

A blind and spiritually dead person can knock and seek. The lost son was dead. He could get up and walk back. If it is not given to someone they can not come to Him.

A dead person cannot and will not seek. (Read Romans 3)
Do you see the flaw in using the prodigal son as your argument?
The prodigal son is already...wait for it...a SON. That passage is a great message about God never giving up on his children.
The people we are talking about are all the others who have no relation to the Father. Did any of the other servants eating the pig slop have a chance to go back to the Father and seek forgiveness? No. They were stuck. The only hope they could have is if the Father came to them and told them he was there to adopt them and make them his child.

 

[MennoSota]

Looks like more "works" to me. Better stop it before you're accused of synergism.

LOL

 

[MoreCoffee]

LOL

:smirk:

 

[Imalive]

A dead person cannot and will not seek. (Read Romans 3)
Do you see the flaw in using the prodigal son as your argument?
The prodigal son is already...wait for it...a SON. That passage is a great message about God never giving up on his children.
The people we are talking about are all the others who have no relation to the Father. Did any of the other servants eating the pig slop have a chance to go back to the Father and seek forgiveness? No. They were stuck. The only hope they could have is if the Father came to them and told them he was there to adopt them and make them his child.

Yes He sends a preacher or lets someone pray or gives them a vision from Him. I was an unbeliever, but my mom prayed and I heard a bit about God. So I asked for signs after I read occult stuff about ghosts and believed spirits existed then and wondered if there was an upperspirit. Asked for signs for a year, then my brother saw Jesus while zen meditating and we went to a church. Nobody picked us up or took us.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes He sends a preacher or lets someone pray or gives them a vision from Him. I was an unbeliever, but my mom prayed and I heard a bit about God. So I asked for signs after I read occult stuff about ghosts and believed spirits existed then and wondered if there was an upperspirit. Asked for signs for a year, then my brother saw Jesus while zen meditating and we went to a church. Nobody picked us up or took us.

God graciously draws the unregenerate to him by his choice. He was under no obligation to do anything at your request. He could have ignored you entirely and he would be right in doing so.
Praise God for His amazing grace.

 

[Josiah]

Looks like more "works" to me. Better stop it before you're accused of synergism.

As you know, synergism is only a problem in justification (narrow) since it makes a mockery of the Cross and declares that Jesus is not the Savior. But, as you know, Protestants fully accept that AS BELIEVERS, as CHRISTIANS, as CHILDREN OF GOD, as those given life - we are to live and are called to DO many things, not so that we can give ourselves life and displace Jesus as the Savior but BECAUSE we have been unconditionally loved, because we have received mercy upon mercy, because like Lazarus, we have been raised to life. CHRISTIANS are called to love as we first were loved (and here, that's a verb - meaning works). So no, our Protestant friend suggesting that CHRISTIANS do good is not justificative synergism and is fully applauded.

Now, we do see some synergism in justification (perhaps) at least suggested in this thread, such as "a baby can't be saved because a baby can't do the ___________ that we need to do so that God will love us, have mercy on us, enliven us, and apply the work of Christ to us - they can't just through the hoops that result in our saving ourselves." THOSE arguments are problematic, IMO. Those aren't talking about what a CHRISTIAN is called to do but what a dead, unregenerate person must do to cause themselves to be enlivened and justified.


Back to the subject of the thread....

 

[MoreCoffee]

I looked up 'Justification (narrow)' in my bible and got zero results.

 

[Josiah]

I looked up 'Justification (narrow)' in my bible and got zero results.

I looked up Catholic and Pope and Purgatory and Transubstantiation in my Bible and got zero results.


Back to the issue.....

 

[MoreCoffee]

I looked up Catholic and Pope and Purgatory and Transubstantiation in my Bible and got zero results.


Back to the issue.....

Yeah, that'd be because those words are not in the bible - except 'father' that one is in the bible and that's what pope means but I am sure you had some 'clever' reason for listing it. However since the Catholic Church does not pretend that everything needs biblical passages as proof texts nobody in the Catholic Church gets spooked by claims like yours. And since Protestant folk like to pretend that finding some word in the bible gives it a special halo (or something) it seemed like it would be fun to point out that 'justification (narrow)' isn't in the bible. I reckon you'd like to claim that the concept is but I doubt it.

 

[Lamb]

It means that a person hopes in baptism rather than in God the redeemer.
Just as we are dependent upon God to graciously redeem us, so we are dependent upon God to graciously redeem our infants should they die. We must trust God and believe that He will do what he feels is best. I am content leaving it in God's hands.

Unless you begin to see that baptism is from above which is God's work. Then you'll realize how God is not absent as you seem to believe from what He ordains and maybe even read through the verses I provided earlier on to see the connection to the cross and the Savior. But until you stop clinging to baptism as being nothing from God you'll reject how easily God can bring to life by faith an infant through the waters by His Word.

 

[MennoSota]

Unless you begin to see that baptism is from above which is God's work.

Indeed, which is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is truly effective, not the washing of water. You are making water baptism some magical activity that initiates God's grace. That is an awful teaching with no biblical support.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not need our assistance and is solely the work of God.
Water baptism is merely an outward expression of what God has already done.
You cannot determine that God has already baptized an infant with the Holy Spirit at birth, therefore baptism of an infant is nothing but a sprinkle bath for a child with ZERO spiritual affect upon that child. To claim anything more is to impose upon God an outward action that forces him to extend grace upon an unwitting infant. You cannot prove such a thing in scripture. You MUST simply place the child's spirit into God's capable hands and pray that God might graciously extend his grace to that child should the child die.
Question: Did David baptize his infant son who died?
Answer: We have no indication that he did.
Question: Did David believe he would one day see his son again?
Answer: Yes! He tells us so in scripture.

 

[Imalive]

Indeed, which is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is truly effective, not the washing of water. You are making water baptism some magical activity that initiates God's grace. That is an awful teaching with no biblical support.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not need our assistance and is solely the work of God.
Water baptism is merely an outward expression of what God has already done.
You cannot determine that God has already baptized an infant with the Holy Spirit at birth, therefore baptism of an infant is nothing but a sprinkle bath for a child with ZERO spiritual affect upon that child. To claim anything more is to impose upon God an outward action that forces him to extend grace upon an unwitting infant. You cannot prove such a thing in scripture. You MUST simply place the child's spirit into God's capable hands and pray that God might graciously extend his grace to that child should the child die.
Question: Did David baptize his infant son who died?
Answer: We have no indication that he did.
Question: Did David believe he would one day see his son again?
Answer: Yes! He tells us so in scripture.

I think he circumcized him.
Water baptism is more powerful than just an expression. It doesn't save without faith though. Babies can have faith, so if someone believes a baby is reborn, it's no problem to baptize. But babies can't express themselves and the baby baptism doesn't save if there's no faith.
And baptism in the Spirit happens if other believers pray and lay hands on.
Hey funny. Saying a prayer or repent can't save, but water baptism can. I thought works couldn't save. What must we do? Repent and be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MennoSota]

I think he circumcized him.
Water baptism is more powerful than just an expression. It doesn't save without faith though. Babies have faith, so if someone believes a baby is reborn, it's no problem to baptize. But babies can't express themselves and the baby baptism doesn't save if there's no faith.
And baptism in the Spirit happens if other believers pray and lay hands on.
Hey funny. Saying a prayer or repent can't save, but water baptism can. I thought works couldn't save. What must we do? Repent and be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Your lack of biblical proof is impressive.

 

[Imalive]

Your lack of biblical proof is impressive.

John the baptist had faith in the whomb.

And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.


Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[Lamb]

Indeed, which is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is truly effective, not the washing of water. You are making water baptism some magical activity that initiates God's grace. That is an awful teaching with no biblical support.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not need our assistance and is solely the work of God.
Water baptism is merely an outward expression of what God has already done.
You cannot determine that God has already baptized an infant with the Holy Spirit at birth, therefore baptism of an infant is nothing but a sprinkle bath for a child with ZERO spiritual affect upon that child. To claim anything more is to impose upon God an outward action that forces him to extend grace upon an unwitting infant. You cannot prove such a thing in scripture. You MUST simply place the child's spirit into God's capable hands and pray that God might graciously extend his grace to that child should the child die.
Question: Did David baptize his infant son who died?
Answer: We have no indication that he did.
Question: Did David believe he would one day see his son again?
Answer: Yes! He tells us so in scripture.

I'm really not sure why you would ask if David baptized his son since baptism wasn't instituted at that time. The Jewish baths were not the same thing as the Christian baptism that Jesus ordained. So your question is actually ridiculous.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word. The Word is with the water in baptism. God's Word does not return to Him empty. Follow that line instead of following what your Baptist preacher told you because God's promises are real.