the meaning of Baptism

[Josiah]

Again no one is forbidding baptism. I am saying that there is NO regenerative properties in baptism. Infants are not spared hell by being baptized.
If infants are spared hell it is purely by the grace of God that the little rebels are redeemed.
To teach baptism as a means of salvation is an outright twisting of scripture.

Friend, respectfully , it is OBVIOUS you aren't reading my posts to you....

I NEVER REMOTELY said that baptism as an act SAVES people. You have simply skipped over EVERYTHING I've said and posted.... All to retain your idea that going... baptizing... teaching is a "waste of time" if the receiver is under some age and that the Great Commission is of "no spiritual value" for those under this age.

You have promoted these prohibitions on the Great Commissions and limitations on God - without offering a single Scripture that states what you do. Just the standard spin of Anabaptists for the past (only) 500 years. To argue, as you have, that going... baptizing... teaching is "of no value" for those under the age of X is without any spiritual support. And again, I wonder why baptism and teaching would be SO very, very, very important so as to be the two elements of The Great Commission (one of the very few instructions for the Church), SO important to the Christians for 1500 years until the Anabaptists came alone.... would be "of no spiritual value." What Scriptures do you have to support this worthlessness of the Great Commission? This impotency of God for those under the age of X? Why God cannot bless those under the age of X? Why Jesus would make SUCH a big, powerful point that we must DO something that is ... well.... worthless, of no value, of no worth - as you stressed?

OTHERS at least have given some reason... because those one day short of their 12th birthday fully met all the Calls of God and equal His glory.... because we don't need Jesus or mercy or grace before our 12th birthday.... because those under 12 cannot do the things they must do to save themselves... because what God says is irrelevant only what we see exampled in the NT.... but you haven't given any reasons. While stressing we aren't to just echo denominational mantras (like that of Anabaptist) but only what Scripture says. Okay. Where is this verse that says Baptism is "of no value?" That going... baptizing... teaching is prohibited to those under the age of X? That God cannot save those under the age of X?


Coming from a monergist, your position is beyond puzzling....



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

You preach salvation by works MC.

...that IS the common reason to reject infant baptism. "Babies CANNOT do what they need to do in order to be saved."

No, on THIS point, Catholics are actually remembering the Council of Orange and that God saves. It is the "Evangelical" followers of Zwingli and/or the Anabaptists that are embracing the "God can't save babies" or "Babies are already born again and saved" position.

 

[Albion]

I praise God for His grace. I praise God that in Christ my works are considered righteous rather than rotten.
Apart from Christ all works are rotten and are of no contribution to one's standing with God. Apart from Christ you stand utterly condemned.

You're just sputtering now. That's the unmistakable sign that the discussion is close to its end.

 

[Josiah]

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4552-What-Is-Sin

For those insisting that those a day short of their 12th birthday have no sin and are already born again and heaven bound without Jesus or grace or mercy or faith.....



.

 

[MennoSota]

No, it doesn't. And I didn't say anything at all there about works.

Anytime we make a work of ours something that contributes to salvation, we promote works and not grace.

 

[atpollard]

Did we ever figure out "the meaning of Baptism", or did it just degenerate into another rehash of "should babies be baptized"?
I would read it for myself, but the topic is now 19 pages long.

If it helps, the Greek word translated into the English term "baptize" means to immerse or plunge under the water. In common Greek usage it would refer to a ship that sunk and was plunged beneath the water or to plunging a pot into a tub of water to wash it.

I believe that "baptism" has spiritual meanings beyond the simple physical root of the word, and some would argue that the act of baptism has social and metaphorical meaning in addition to the spiritual. I was just wondering if anyone bothered to discuss any of these meanings of baptism before we shifted to the well worn arguments about what age one should be baptized at (which dominate page 19).

 

[MennoSota]

Friend, respectfully , it is OBVIOUS you aren't reading my posts to you....

I NEVER REMOTELY said that baptism as an act SAVES people. You have simply skipped over EVERYTHING I've said and posted.... All to retain your idea that going... baptizing... teaching is a "waste of time" if the receiver is under some age and that the Great Commission is of "no spiritual value" for those under this age.

You have promoted these prohibitions on the Great Commissions and limitations on God - without offering a single Scripture that states what you do. Just the standard spin of Anabaptists for the past (only) 500 years. To argue, as you have, that going... baptizing... teaching is "of no value" for those under the age of X is without any spiritual support. And again, I wonder why baptism and teaching would be SO very, very, very important so as to be the two elements of The Great Commission (one of the very few instructions for the Church), SO important to the Christians for 1500 years until the Anabaptists came alone.... would be "of no spiritual value." What Scriptures do you have to support this worthlessness of the Great Commission? This impotency of God for those under the age of X? Why God cannot bless those under the age of X? Why Jesus would make SUCH a big, powerful point that we must DO something that is ... well.... worthless, of no value, of no worth - as you stressed?

OTHERS at least have given some reason... because those one day short of their 12th birthday fully met all the Calls of God and equal His glory.... because we don't need Jesus or mercy or grace before our 12th birthday.... because those under 12 cannot do the things they must do to save themselves... because what God says is irrelevant only what we see exampled in the NT.... but you haven't given any reasons. While stressing we aren't to just echo denominational mantras (like that of Anabaptist) but only what Scripture says. Okay. Where is this verse that says Baptism is "of no value?" That going... baptizing... teaching is prohibited to those under the age of X? That God cannot save those under the age of X?


Coming from a monergist, your position is beyond puzzling....



- Josiah

Josiah I have not prohibited anything. I have stated repeatedly that our baptizing someone else does not save them. This includes infants.
Do you agree?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did we ever figure out "the meaning of Baptism", or did it just degenerate into another rehash of "should babies be baptized"?
I would read it for myself, but the topic is now 19 pages long.

If it helps, the Greek word translated into the English term "baptize" means to immerse or plunge under the water. In common Greek usage it would refer to a ship that sunk and was plunged beneath the water or to plunging a pot into a tub of water to wash it.

I believe that "baptism" has spiritual meanings beyond the simple physical root of the word, and some would argue that the act of baptism has social and metaphorical meaning in addition to the spiritual. I was just wondering if anyone bothered to discuss any of these meanings of baptism before we shifted to the well worn arguments about what age one should be baptized at (which dominate page 19).

Yes, I gave a lovely definition quite a while ago

Holy Scripture tells Christians what Baptism is and what it means.

Romans 6:3-9 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For he who has died is freed from sin. (8) But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (9) For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

John 3:5 Jesus responded: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9-13 For in him, all the fullness of the Divine Nature dwells bodily. (10) And in him, you have been filled; for he is the head of all principality and power. (11) In him also, you have been circumcised with a circumcision not made by hand, not by the despoiling of the body of flesh, but by the circumcision of Christ. (12) You have been buried with him in baptism. In him also, you have risen again through faith, by the work of God, who raised him up from the dead. (13) And when you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he enlivened you, together with him, forgiving you of all transgressions,

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also died once for our sins, the Just One on behalf of the unjust, so that he might offer us to God, having died, certainly, in the flesh, but having been enlivened by the Spirit. (19) And in the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison, going to those souls (20) who had been unbelieving in past times, while they waited for the patience of God, as in the days of Noah, when the ark was being built. In that ark, a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. (21) And now you also are saved, in a similar manner, by baptism, not by the testimony of sordid flesh, but by the examination of a good conscience in God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (22) He is at the right hand of God, devouring death, so that we may be made heirs to eternal life. And since he has journeyed to heaven, the Angels and powers and virtues are subject to him.
​

 

[MennoSota]

...that IS the common reason to reject infant baptism. "Babies CANNOT do what they need to do in order to be saved."

No, on THIS point, Catholics are actually remembering the Council of Orange and that God saves. It is the "Evangelical" followers of Zwingli and/or the Anabaptists that are embracing the "God can't save babies" or "Babies are already born again and saved" position.

God can save babies. God can choose to save anyone at any age. God is not obligated to save anyone because a church baptized them with water. This includes infants.
God may choose to extend grace to infants. He may not. We cannot know the mind of God and we certainly cannot compel the mind of God by baptizing infants.
We must trust that God will do what his good and perfect will chooses to do.

 

[MennoSota]

You're just sputtering now. That's the unmistakable sign that the discussion is close to its end.

LOL, you're stuck in your waste deep church dogma. Read scripture and get back to me or dig deeper into the church dogma. Your choice.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I like Catholic dogma. It's what Jesus teaches.

 

[Josiah]

Anytime we make a work of ours something that contributes to salvation, we promote works and not grace.

A solid reason to reject the anti-infant view: The mantra of "Baptism has no value or importance because those under 12 CANNOT do the things they need to do to be saved."

A solid reason to reject the mantra: God CANNOT use going or teaching or baptizing those under the age of X because God is impotent to save them and/or they are already saved without no need for grace or mercy or Jesus or God.


Where is this verse, "We are forbidden from going... baptizing... teaching those under the age of X?" "Go and baptize but not with water but by dunking them into the Holy Spirit and after that teaching them but only AFTER they have come to faith, received the Holy Spirit, been regenerated, and given public testimony of their faith in Christ?" Where is this, "going... baptizing... teaching is of no spiritual value yet are the Great Commission for Christians to do?"

 

[Josiah]

God can save babies. God can choose to save anyone at any age. God is not obligated to save anyone because a church baptized them with water. This includes infants.

No one said He is. No more than He is obligated to save any who have heard the Word taught...

But how does that mean that going... baptizing.... teaching is "OF NO SPIRITUAL VALUE?" How does it mean that we are forbidden to go... baptize... teach those under the magical age of X? How does that prove that God is impotent to use the teaching of His Word and the administering of His Baptism in His plan to save?

We must trust that God will do what his good and perfect will chooses to do.

But the Great Commission is NOT "do nothing.... say nothing.... don't teach.... don't baptize..... just trust that God will immediately cause salvation to dawn in people." Nor is it, "But if they are a day short of their 12th birthday, you are forbidden to go to them, to teach them anything, to baptize them, because all taht is meaningless and of no value and God cannot do a thing with anything and besides they are already regenerated and don't need no God, no grace, go mercy, no Jesus." It seems to ME Jesus wants us to DO something as a part of His saving of people, otherwise the Great Commission would have been, "Do NOTHING, say NOTHING, teach NOTHING, go to NO ONE." And Jesus would be condemned for reaching out and for welcoming little children.... Paul would have been condemned for his mission work.

 

[MennoSota]

A solid reason to reject the anti-infant view: The mantra of "Baptism has no value or importance because those under 12 CANNOT do the things they need to do to be saved."

A solid reason to reject the mantra: God CANNOT use going or teaching or baptizing those under the age of X because God is impotent to save them and/or they are already saved without no need for grace or mercy or Jesus or God.


Where is this verse, "We are forbidden from going... baptizing... teaching those under the age of X?" "Go and baptize but not with water but by dunking them into the Holy Spirit and after that teaching them but only AFTER they have come to faith, received the Holy Spirit, been regenerated, and given public testimony of their faith in Christ?" Where is this, "going... baptizing... teaching is of no spiritual value yet are the Great Commission for Christians to do?"

You are not listening. I will not keep correcting your false assertion of what I have repeatedly stated. Go back and find where I say anything about an age of accountability. You won't find it. You won't find me making any claim you are repeating.
You still don't answer my simple question.
Do you believe that your baptism, of an adult who has not expressed any faith, will save them?

 

[atpollard]

and definitely the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history

I don't care one iota about the Baptist vs Lutheran argument on who get's baptized, but I just wanted to point out that this argument is probably not true and definitely misleading. For one thing, the vast majority of Christians throughout history are probably still alive today. The population of the earth is billions of people. Almost half the people who have ever lived are still alive. So for an absolute majority of what people believe throughout time, you should start with the current population.

I doubt you can produce proof for an overwhelming majority of Christians agreeing on anything.
So your argument was just an empty appeal to authority with nothing to back it up.

Even if your statistics were correct, the majority of people have, at one time or another believed that ...
1. the Earth is flat
2. draining excess blood is healthy.
3. Owning slaves is a good thing.

So what people believe is a poor yard stick. "What does God say?" is a better question to ask.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
I doubt you can produce proof for an overwhelming majority of Christians agreeing on anything.
....

The vast Majority of Christians throughout history agree that babies ought to be baptised and that pouring water is just fine and that being a Catholic is the "right thing to do".

:smirk:

 

[Josiah]

Do you believe that your baptism, of an adult who has not expressed any faith, will save them?

Answered over and over and over and over...... No, not AS AN ACT. Yes, the Scriptures speak of the teaching of the word being salvic but no, not everyone who is the object of teaching is saved. But there is no verse that says, "Teaching the word is of no spiritual value" or "you can't teach those under the age of X." Yes, the Scriptures speak of baptism as salvic ("Baptism now saves you") but no, everyone who is baptized is not THEREBY saved. But there is no verse that says "Baptism is of no spiritual value" or "God is rendered impotent by Baptism" or "you can't baptize any under the age of X." And there is nothing that says "You cannot go.... baptize.... teach..... unless the receiver of such is already a Christian, already regenerated and gives God permission to bless him." And no verse that says, "Go.... Baptize NOT with water but immerse them under the Holy Spirit and then teach them."

I don't agree that we are commanded to do NOTHING... to not go, not baptize, not teach.... but merely to passively trust God will immediately "pop" faith into them. Or at least so with those under the age of X.

 

[atpollard]

Deleted

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where does Jesus teach this ...

In the infallible decrees of the Catholic Church, of course.

:smirk:

Ask a silly question and get a short answer.

 

[MennoSota]

Answered over and over and over and over...... No, not AS AN ACT. Yes, the Scriptures speak of the teaching of the word being salvic but no, not everyone who is the object of teaching is saved. But there is no verse that says, "Teaching the word is of no spiritual value" or "you can't teach those under the age of X." Yes, the Scriptures speak of baptism as salvic ("Baptism now saves you") but no, everyone who is baptized is not THEREBY saved. But there is no verse that says "Baptism is of no spiritual value" or "God is rendered impotent by Baptism" or "you can't baptize any under the age of X." And there is nothing that says "You cannot go.... baptize.... teach..... unless the receiver of such is already a Christian, already regenerated and gives God permission to bless him." And no verse that says, "Go.... Baptize NOT with water but immerse them under the Holy Spirit and then teach them."

I don't agree that we are commanded to do NOTHING... to not go, not baptize, not teach.... but merely to passively trust God will immediately "pop" faith into them. Or at least so with those under the age of X.

So Baptism doesn't save. Did I read that correctly?
Why, then, would baptism save an infant?