the meaning of Baptism

[Lamb]

No, I'm not leaving God out of the equation. God does the adopting and giving life to lifeless sinners, but God uses mentors to guide new Christians in the process of sanctification.
Jesus told us to go make disciples, but that cannot happen until God makes these disciples new in Christ. We do not make them alive in Christ, which is what infant baptism is proposing to do. We simply obey God as mentors to those whom God places in our care.

So you believe that God does nothing in baptism even though Jesus told the disciples how to make disciples (baptizing and teaching)? That's what you're saying.

 

[MennoSota]

Friend,

Here's what I don't see in the Bible but rather a (relatively new) teaching of Anabaptists since the 16th Century...

"Go.... Baptize.... teach..... but you are forbidden to do for those under the age of X."
"Go.... Baptize with the Holy Spirit but don't apply water and only to those over the age of X"

"Go... to those already Christians..... then Baptize them.... then teach them."

Nowhere do I set an age limit for believers baptism.
Question: How can you determine that an infant is already a Christian? Answer: You can't. And...you certainly can't make them a Christian by baptizing them. That would be a work, not grace.

Again, a church (the Anabaptists) have been saying that for nearly 500 years but Scripture doesn't. Actually the Bible says "Baptism now saves you."

- Josiah

I have addressed the issue very clearly in regard to the Holy Spirit's baptism, which saves you. But you are imputing human water baptism as the means of salvation, which therefore negates grace and is never taught in scripture.
Please study the role of the Spirit as it relates to the issue of baptism. I suggest you will find your position to be wanting.

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus gives the Great Commandment to CHRISTIANS, not to the Holy Spirit. So the Command to Go.... Baptize.... teach is given to US. So, again, how do WE baptize in the Holy Spirit rather than with water? How are we to "submerge" and "immerse" people in the Holy Spirit rather than in water?





Why does God need a person's permission to choose them or to bless them - to give them spiritual life?

I don't see in the Great Commission: "Go.... baptize.... teach.... but ONLY those over the age of X who have given their permission to God to bless them."

Where does the Bible say that the receiver of God's choosing/life-giving/salvation and of teaching must first give testimony that they are a believer?





No one claims any human can, but God can give His righteousness to His children. It's the very foundational affirmation of Christianity. In fact, ONLY God can give such to His children. We can't give Him permission or cause ourselves to come to life or save ourselves (because we're DEAD - Eph. 2:8-9) which is why God does it. This is quite central to Christianity.


Friend, your point is that we aren't to say what Scripture doesn't. Okay. Where does Scripture say, "Thou canst NOT baptize and teach any under the age of X?" Where does it say, "Thou aren't NOT to baptize with water but immerse and dunk people in the Holy Spirit?" Where does it say, "God canst not choose, bless, save or gift life to one who is not already a Christian, has given public testimony of such, and first gives God permission to do so?" Um.... there is a really big and important verse (Christians call it The Great Commission) that says WE are to GO.... Baptize..... teach. And it says NOTHING about forbidding this to people under a certain age or IQ. Yup, there is a verse that says "Baptism now saves you" I realize we may disagree on the dynamics of that but there is no verse that says, "Your going and baptizing and teaching people CANNOT be associated with God saving and blessing." And there's nothing that says, "Do NOT baptize with water but only dunk people in the Holy Spirit." I think you are ADDING a whole bunch of prohibitions that aren't in Scripture (but are teachings of one denomination since the 16th Century) and a whole bunch of limitations on what God can do. And you've not quoted one Scripture for this prohibition on baptizing and teaching those under the age of X.


See posts # 85 and 103



- Josiah




.

Josiah I have addressed this in multiple posts and explained the work of the Holy Spirit. You seem to be struggling with God's baptism by the Spirit and desire it to be enacted by your work of sprinkling. Why are you insisting on works as a means of salvation? You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Josiah]

Baptism in Christ's death saves you. Then baptism in water because someone is saved.
If baptism saves ppl I could trick a bunch of atheists to come w me to the swimming pool and push em under water and say a quick prayer. They won't be saved by that. I'm 100 percent sure.

No one has said that Baptizing means ERGO they are saved, anymore than any says that teaching people means ERGO they are saved. The issue is: The prohibition to do as Jesus told us in the Great Commission: "GO.... BAPTIZE..... TEACH", the added restriction (never stated anywhere in Scripture) for receivers under the age of X, any who have not first became a Christian and gave public testimony of that and expressly given their permission to God for God to bless them. I don't read those restrictions, prohibitions and limitations anywhere in the Great Commission ... or anywhere else in Scripture. And evidently no one else has either because so far, no such Scripture has been offered. Where are these restrictions and prohibitions on the Great Commission? Where are all these limitations on what God can do?


What I read is that Baptism and teaching are super important in the Bible - not "meaningless" and "of no value" as has been claimed in this thread.

What I read is that PEOPLE (not the Holy Spirit) are COMMANDED to GO... BAPTIZE ... TEACH and no one can find the verse that says, "But thou art forbidden to do so for any under the age of X." And "but do NOT baptize with water but dunk them in the Holy Spirit instead."

What I read is where the Word is said to save... and "Baptism now saves you." The Bible speaks of them as saving tools of God. I don't see the verse, "Baptizing and teaching are never effective and a waste of time and water.... of no spiritual use"



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Josiah I have addressed this in multiple posts and explained the work of the Holy Spirit.

Friend, you are the one restricting what God can do.... arguing that the Great Commission is limited and restricted. I'm not the one limiting God. Or the Great Commission.

You seem to be struggling with God's baptism by the Spirit

Not at all, it's just the Great Commission wasn't given to the Holy Spirit, it was given to us. And the Great Commission doesn't say "but do NOT Baptize them with water."

Why are you insisting on works as a means of salvation?

Again, you want it both ways: A baby can't be baptized because they can't jump through the LONG list of hoops you think is mandated by Scriptures you can't fine.... AND that if a baby does things that means they are saved by their own works. Friend, you are the one with the contradiction....

I don't believe that regeneration is a work ANY performs.... thus, I have no problem with God being the Savior and babies perhaps sleeping through Baptism; in my theology, the recipient just receives God's grace - doesn't synergisticly do his/her part.

Yes, I DO insist on works in justification but entirely GOD"S work, entirely on people who are DEAD and UNABLE to do anything whatsoever. But usually, God blesses through means..... two are mentioned in Scripture: The Bible says that God often uses the Word, it speaks of the word as salvic, and there is that verse "Baptism now saves you." Again, you may have a different spin on that but you can't find the verse "Go.... Baptize.... Teach" is of no spiritual value" as you claimed. Again, ODD Jesus would put SO much value in baptizing and teaching (making them the two parts of the Great Commission) how they both were SO important in Scripture and for the first 1500 years of Christianity when, as you stated, "no spiritual value." Why, UI wonder, do you think God SO MUCH wants US to DO things that are "of not spiritual value" and "God cannot use?"


See posts 85 and 103



- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

No one has said that Baptizing means ERGO they are saved, anymore than any says that teaching people means ERGO they are saved. The issue is: The prohibition to do as Jesus told us in the Great Commission: "GO.... BAPTIZE..... TEACH", the added restriction (never stated anywhere in Scripture) for receivers under the age of X, any who have not first became a Christian and gave public testimony of that and expressly given their permission to God for God to bless them. I don't read those restrictions, prohibitions and limitations anywhere in the Great Commission ... or anywhere else in Scripture. And evidently no one else has either because so far, no such Scripture has been offered. Where are these restrictions and prohibitions on the Great Commission? Where are all these limitations on what God can do?


What I read is that Baptism and teaching are super important in the Bible - not "meaningless" and "of no value" as has been claimed in this thread.

What I read is that PEOPLE (not the Holy Spirit) are COMMANDED to GO... BAPTIZE ... TEACH and no one can find the verse that says, "But thou art forbidden to do so for any under the age of X." And "but do NOT baptize with water but dunk them in the Holy Spirit instead."

What I read is where the Word is said to save... and "Baptism now saves you." The Bible speaks of them as saving tools of God. I don't see the verse, "Baptizing and teaching are never effective and a waste of time and water.... of no spiritual use"



Thank you.


- Josiah

I don't see the restriction either, but be baptized is not something a baby can do, decide, so that makes sense to me to wait til the child can.
But I've heard evangelical teachers say baptism saves. It's of more importance I think than that it gets credit for. You have to believe and be baptised and although it symbolizes dying w Christ it is important, but only baptism doesn't save and I've heard ppl teach that baptism saves. Faith saves and you do it in faith. The robber on the cross couldnt get baptized, yet was saved. I read that after 600 years they sprinkled if it wasn't possible to baptize someone because they were dying or something.

 

[Imalive]

Here's the restriction:

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Baptizo:

And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away

 

[Josiah]

I don't see the restriction either, but be baptized is not something a baby can do

... and no baby does. Heck, I wasn't even breathing. No person baptizes themselves, it is always passive. The Great Commission is not given to mandate what self must do to self but what Christians are to do for others.

It's of more importance I think than that it gets credit for.

I believe that Jesus saves. The unsaved are DEAD (Ephesians 2:8-9 etc., etc.) and the DEAD can't decide, declare, testify, give permission or believe anything. Which is why they need to be SAVED (passive on their part, the "free gift" of God, God GIVES life).

I reject the idea that God cannot save or bless or grant life to one UNLESS they have first attained the magical age of X , unless they FIRST have said the sinner's prayer and given their life to Jesus, come to faith/life, and given Jesus permission to save them. I can't find any of those restrictions, prohibitions and limitations anywhere in the Bible. God GAVE faith/life to John the Baptist still in his mother's womb because God can - not because John the Baptist (at about 6 months gestation) had first come to faith, decided to follow Jesus, testified of his faith, and gave God permission to save him.

BECAUSE I believe that God saves (and not we ourselves), I have no problem with God saving a baby. The bible says that NO ONE can even say "Jesus is lord" UNLESS the Holy Spirit causes it. No one can enter a second time into their mother's womb. We can't save ourselves - in whole or in part - whether we are 5 minutes old or 50 years old, whether we have an IQ of 50 or 500, Black or white, male or female.... Which is why we need the SAVIOR. GOD SAVES, God forgives, God blesses, God regenerates. I don't think God is impotent when it comes to those under the age of X. I don't think we contribute ANYTHING to our being saved (thus I believe Jesus is the savior and not self). Since the unsaved don't save themselves, since the unsaved CAN'T save themselves, the baby is in no different situation than the 50 year old: if salvation comes, God must give it.


Now, I fully agree..... Teaching and Baptizing do NOT save in and of themselves, by the act being performed. I've known many who heard the Gospel and did NOT come to faith. Simply teaching someone - that act - doesn't bring out salvation, only God does that. Same with Baptism. But on the other hand, it is both biblical and evident that people rarely spring to faith in a complete vacuum and that it is unbiblical that we are to do nothing vis-a-vis the unsaved. We are specifically COMMANDED to do two things: Baptize and teach (that alone tells me these must not be a "waste of time" and "of no value" as has been claimed!). I think God can use those to bring about faith. The Bible does speak of the Word as salvic. And the Bible does speak of Baptism as salvic ("Baptism now saves you") but only because God typically works through means rather than just zapping them directly with no context.

The robber on the cross couldnt get baptized, yet was saved.

Exactly!

No one remotely teaches that God is impotent unless one is baptized. You give a good example. John the Baptist is an even better one. God ALSO has the means of grace of the Word (which we are commanded to teach). And of course, He is not REQUIRED by some Law to use any means (again, John the Baptist). I'm not the one restricting what God can do.... that's the other side of this "debate."

Here's the restriction:

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

No, it's not a restriction. It's an EXAMPLE. It's what was DONE in a single case of a single man. If this is a teaching, then, friend, the only valid baptism is one done by Philip (or at least a Hebrew Prophet) and only in whatever pool he was baptized in. It would be forbidden for anyone but eunuch men to be baptized.... it would be forbidden for any but Hebrew man prophets to do the baptizing.... it would be forbidden to do such anywhere but in that stream (or whatever it is). Friend, EXAMPLES are just examples - not "GO AND DO LIKEWISE." Otherwise, we'd all have the command to look at naked women bathing on rooftops, lol. You see my point.

The Great Commission to CHRISTIANS is: Go..... Baptize.... Teach.... Nothing there about "But only eunuchs" or "but only by Hebrew male prophets" "but only in a certain pond". Nothing about "but only if they are past the age of X." Nothing about "but only if they are Christians."

Again, I'm not the one slapping on invisible restrictions... I'm not the one limited what God can do....



More on this point of substituting examples for teaching (this from an earlier post to a different poster)

1. I don't accept the rubric that the teaching of the Bible is irrelevant, only the traditions/examples found in the Bible. Thus, with all due respect, your question is irrelevant. You think so too, I strongly suspect. Can you find even one example in the Bible of posting at a website on the internet? Yet you are doing so. Can you find even one case of a church using electricity or powerpoint? Even one example of a youth group? Even one example of people passing around little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little cups of Welch's Grape Juice? Friend, probably 99% of what your congregation does is not seen anywhere in the Bible. And can you find even one example in the Bible of an African-American or Hispanic or Korean being baptized? One example of a Gentile administering baptism? Did the congregation in Corinth have a website, a parking lot? Did they have a youth group and Sunday School? Did they use electricity? Did the preacher wear jeans and a Ahola shirt and use a mic? Did he hold a floppy, leather cover KJV Bible while he preached? Did it pass around grape juice and white bread for Communion? I'm being foolish but I'm SURE you see my point. With all due respect, I think you too reject your rubric; I don't think you believe your own premise.


2. We have a FEW examples of baptisms in the Bible. Probably fewer than 0.00000001% of the ones done in the First Century (a pretty small sample). And yes, it seems MOST of the very, very, very few examples of Baptism that happen to be recorded in the NT do seem to be of those past the never-disclosed age of "X." But not all of them. In some cases, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the age of those being baptized. For example, we're told that "all in her household" were baptized - with no hint as to the respective ages of each and whether each had celebrated their "X" birthday. True, I can't point to an example that states, "And this person had not yet celebrated their X birthday." But then you can't find an example of a Korean or Native American or Italian or German being baptized but that doesn't stop you. And you can't show that even the tiny number of examples in the Bible were all over the age of X.


.

I hope that helps....


Thank you!


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

Still waiting for a response on why...If God is the one who actually makes disciples WHY people do not believe that God is the one who baptizes. Does He not teach you either since the command to make disciples was to baptize AND teach?

Is God not involved in making us into disciples? Is that the belief for some of you?

 

[Imalive]

... and no baby does. Heck, I wasn't even breathing. No person baptizes themselves, it is always passive. The Great Commission is not given to mandate what self must do to self but what Christians are to do for others.





I believe that Jesus saves. The unsaved are DEAD (Ephesians 2:8-9 etc., etc.) and the DEAD can't decide, declare, testify, give permission or believe anything. Which is why they need to be SAVED (passive on their part, the "free gift" of God, God GIVES life).

I reject the idea that God cannot save or bless or grant life to one UNLESS they have first attained the magical age of X , unless they FIRST have said the sinner's prayer and given their life to Jesus, come to faith/life, and given Jesus permission to save them. I can't find any of those restrictions, prohibitions and limitations anywhere in the Bible. God GAVE faith/life to John the Baptist still in his mother's womb because God can - not because John the Baptist (at about 6 months gestation) had first come to faith, decided to follow Jesus, testified of his faith, and gave God permission to save him.

BECAUSE I believe that God saves (and not we ourselves), I have no problem with God saving a baby. The bible says that NO ONE can even say "jesus is lord" UNLESS the Holy Spirit causes it. No one can enter a second time into their mother's womb. We can't save ourselves - in whole or in part - whether we are 5 minutes old or 50 mintues old, whether we have an IQ of 50 or 500, Black or white, male or female.... GOD SAVES, God forgives, God blesses, God regenerates. I don't think God is impotent when it comes to those under the age of X. I don't think we contribute ANYTHING to our being saved (thus I believe Jesus is the savior and not self).


Now, I fully agree..... Teaching and Baptizing do NOT save in and of themselves, by the act being performed. I've known many who heard the Gospel and did NOT come to faith. Simply teaching someone - that act - doesn't bring out salvation, only God does that. Same with Baptism. But on the other hand, it is both biblical and evident that people rarely spring to faith in a complete vacuum and that it is unbiblical that we are to do nothing vis-a-vis the unsaved. We are specifically COMMANDED to do two things: Baptize and teach (that alone tells me these must not be a "waste of time" and "of no value" as has been claimed!). I think God can use those to bring about faith. The Bible does speak of the Word as salvic. And the Bible does speak of Baptism as salvic ("Baptism now saves you") but only because God typically works through means rather than just zapping them directly with no context.





No one remotely teaches that God is impotent unless one is baptized. You give a good example. John the Baptist is an even better one. God ALSO has the means of grace of the Word (which we are commanded to teach). And of course, He is not REQUIRED by some Law to use any means (again, John the Baptist). I'm not the one restricting what God can do.... that's the other side of this "debate."


I hope that helps....






No, it's not a restriction. It's an EXAMPLE. It's what was DONE in a single case of a single man. If this is a teaching, then, friend, the only valid baptism is one done by Philip (or at least a Hebrew Prophet) and only in whatever pool he was baptized in. It would be forbidden for anyone but eunuch men to be baptized.... it would be forbidden for any but Hebrew man prophets to do the baptizing.... it would be forbidden to do such anywhere but in that stream (or whatever it is). Friend, EXAMPLES are just examples - not "GO AND DO LIKEWISE." Otherwise, we'd all have the command to look at naked women bathing on rooftops, lol. You see my point.

The Great Commission to CHRISTIANS is: Go..... Baptize.... Teach.... Nothing there about "But only eunuchs" or "but only by Hebrew male prophets" "but only in a certain pond". Nothing about "but only if they are past the age of X." Nothing about "but only if they are Christians."

Again, I'm not the one slapping on invisible restrictions... I'm not the one limited what God can do....





- Josiah

So faith isn't needed? It can be done without faith? It's not just an example. Everything not done out of faith is sin says James. No repent and be baptized. No atheist gets first baptized and then repent and then told the gospel.
Babies do believe I think if they're raised christian, but they can't express themselves or understand the offer and the gospel and it's not necessary yet. Babies always go to heaven. They can't even sin. They don't know right from wrong.

 

[Albion]

So faith isn't needed? It can be done without faith? It's not just an example. Everything not done out of faith is sin says James. No repent and be baptized. No atheist gets first baptized and then repent and then told the gospel.
Babies do believe I think if they're raised christian, but they can't express themselves or understand the offer and the gospel and it's not necessary yet. Babies always go to heaven. They can't even sin. They don't know right from wrong.

You understand that most Christians and all the historic churches believe in what is usually called Original Sin. All men are born in sin, according to the Bible, but you don't really believe that. That's what I'm getting anyway.

 

[Imalive]

You understand that most Christians and all the historic churches believe in what is usually called Original Sin. All men are born in sin, according to the Bible, but you don't really believe that. That's what I'm getting anyway.

Show me how a baby can sin. The brain isn't even capable. They also need Christ's offer to go to heaven, but if they are born in a muslim family and die they go to heaven. No need to baptize em or tell em the gospel quick. They dont even understand if you tell em. They can be filled in the Spirit though.
And He will say to those on His right or left hand I forgot: you did not give Me to drink: He won't say that to a baby I presume that they should have given a milk bottle they cant even hold to someone else.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION]

So faith isn't needed?

Of course it is! Grace and faith are "the free gift of God, not because of anything you did so no one has any reason to boast." Ephesians 2:8-9. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not self.

So since self doesn't save self, since "NO ONE can even say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the work of God," since God's blessings of grace and faith are "free gifts of God" and not something we create in our own DEAD being (dead people can't do much, much less that) - then, well, God gives us life/salvation. "The free gift of GOD" the Bible insists. Now, where is the verse that says, "God is impotent when it comes to those under the age of X?" Where is the verse that says, "Do NOT go and baptize and teach those under the age of X because they aren't yet able to save themselves like older folks can?" No one is able to save themselves, which is what we believe we need the SAVIOR why we aren't Jews or Muslims or Bhakti Hindus: we believe we need to BE saved ... we need the SAVIOR to save us.. that Jesus saves, not self.

No atheist gets first baptized and then repent and then told the gospel.

Really? I think the bible says the opposite. No unregenerate person can repent OR save themselves. GOD alone saves. God alone give life. God alone converts. THEN the person can repent. Repent is an act of faith, it can't be done before faith exists.

Babies do believe I think if they're raised christian, but they can't express themselves or understand the offer and the gospel

The unregenerate CANNOT understand the offer or the Gospel. The Bible repeatedly says it is "FOOLISHNESS" to them. Yet... God can use that Gospel.... as His tool ("the Means of Grace" this is called in Theology).... as a conduit of sorts... to GIVE grace and faith ... so that they become spirituall alive, they gain the Spirit, they BELIEVE - and THEN (only then) can they even begin to understand (in the sense of believe) the gospel.

The person with an IQ of 500 is of no advantage over the one with an IQ of 50, because the bible says over and over, to the unregenerate, the Gospel is FOOLISHNESS to them and they CANNOT understand it. But God uses it..... God GIVES them grace and faith.... God gives them LIFE.... and there's an epiphany..... "NO ONE is capable of even saying 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit causes it." Not, "those under the age of X are too dumb for God to be able to bless them."

Babies cannot sin

Verse please....

"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

The unregenerate are, well, unregenerate before they are regerante. The Dead are dead unless they are alive. Only God gives life. Only Jesus saves.



I hope that helps....



- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

[MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION]




Of course it is! Grace and faith are "the free gift of God, not because of anything you did so no one has any reason to boast." Ephesians 2:8-9. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not self.

So since self doesn't save self, since "NO ONE can even say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the work of God," since God's blessings of grace and faith are "free gifts of God" and not something we create in our own DEAD being (dead people can't do much, much less that) - then, well, God gives us life/salvation. "The free gift of GOD" the Bible insists. Now, where is the verse that says, "God is impotent when it comes to those under the age of X?" Where is the verse that says, "Do NOT go and baptize and teach those under the age of X because they aren't yet able to save themselves like older folks can?" No one is able to save themselves, which is what we believe we need the SAVIOR why we aren't Jews or Muslims or Bhakti Hindus: we believe we need to BE saved ... we need the SAVIOR to save us.. that Jesus saves, not self.





Really? I think the bible says the opposite. No unregenerate person can repent OR save themselves. GOD alone saves. God alone give life. God alone converts. THEN the person can repent. Repent is an act of faith, it can't be done before faith exists.




The unregenerate CANNOT understand the offer or the Gospel. The Bible repeatedly says it is "FOOLISHNESS" to them. Yet... God can use that Gospel.... as His tool ("the Means of Grace" this is called in Theology).... as a conduit of sorts... to GIVE grace and faith ... so that they become spirituall alive, they gain the Spirit, they BELIEVE - and THEN (only then) can they even begin to understand (in the sense of believe) the gospel.

The person with an IQ of 500 is of no advantage over the one with an IQ of 50, because the bible says over and over, to the unregenerate, the Gospel is FOOLISHNESS to them and they CANNOT understand it. But God uses it..... God GIVES them grace and faith.... God gives them LIFE.... and there's an epiphany..... "NO ONE is capable of even saying 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit causes it." Not, "those under the age of X are too dumb for God to be able to bless them."





Verse please....

"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

The unregenerate are, well, unregenerate before they are regerante. The Dead are dead unless they are alive. Only God gives life. Only Jesus saves.



I hope that helps....



- Josiah

Verse?
If Judas had died in the whomb it would have been better for him. For such is the Kingdom.

 

[Imalive]

Ah. Some more texts:

http://oakridgechurch.com/riggs/ori-sin.htm

 

[Josiah]

Verse?
If Judas had died in the whomb it would have been better for him.

The verse doesn't say, "Those under the age of X have no sin.' Yeah, if I kill 500 people that's worse than only killing one but it doesn't make be SINLESS. To be BETTER than the betrayer of Jesus is not to be SINLESS. The Bible says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." ALL. Not, "those under the age of X have no sin, are born again and believe."

Jesus said that "NO ONE comes to the Father except by me." NO ONE. So even if you hold that those under the magical age of X are as loving as God is, as holy as God is, perfect as their father in heaven is perfect... still, they are not regenerate and not on their own heaven bound. Jesus has to GIVE it to them (no less than those over the age of X) - even if they are the moral and loving equal of God as you claim.


But this thread is not about universalism (your suggestion that we are BORN saved). The sin nature is an interesting and important topic, just not this one. And universalism is not something we should discuss in this forum. The issue here is this: The meaning and importance of Baptism. I'm discussing with those who have specifically insisted it is "of no importance" "a waste" and "of no spiritual value." And the side issue: Does the Bible forbid Christians from going, baptizing and teaching any under the age of X?


Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

Now I understand why they wait til a kid is 12. Age of accountability.
http://www.bible.ca/interactive/salvation-20-infants-are-saved.htm

 

[Josiah]

Now I understand why they wait til a kid is 12. Age of accountability.

So, the magical age is 12? We can't go to or baptize or teach anyone not yet 12?

So, those 11 and under met God glory and thus the Bible is wrong when it say, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
So, those 11 and under are heaven bound without Jesus so Jesus was wrong when He said, "no one comes to the Father except by me" cuz they don't need no Jesus?

Or are there TWO ways to heaven: Don't reach the age of 12 or Jesus?

 

[MennoSota]

Babies have been observed lying by age 6 months.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

 

[MennoSota]

Still waiting for a response on why...If God is the one who actually makes disciples WHY people do not believe that God is the one who baptizes. Does He not teach you either since the command to make disciples was to baptize AND teach?

Is God not involved in making us into disciples? Is that the belief for some of you?

I have explained this, but you keep thinking that the only baptism is water baptism when in fact the Spirit baptizes...no water needed.