the meaning of Baptism

[NewCreation435]

This statement is from the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000. A document that is from a Southern Baptist perspective.

"Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper."

Do you agree or disagree?

If it is an act of obedience and symbolic does that mean baptism must be by immersion?

Do you identify baptism as a testimony to others about what has happened to the person internally? What then should we make of infant baptism?

Scriptures that were referenced in this section which also includes a statement about the Lord's Supper are:
Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

The whole thing is http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

 

[MoreCoffee]

Holy Scripture tells Christians what Baptism is and what it means.

Romans 6:3-9 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For he who has died is freed from sin. (8) But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (9) For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

John 3:5 Jesus responded: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9-13 For in him, all the fullness of the Divine Nature dwells bodily. (10) And in him, you have been filled; for he is the head of all principality and power. (11) In him also, you have been circumcised with a circumcision not made by hand, not by the despoiling of the body of flesh, but by the circumcision of Christ. (12) You have been buried with him in baptism. In him also, you have risen again through faith, by the work of God, who raised him up from the dead. (13) And when you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he enlivened you, together with him, forgiving you of all transgressions,

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also died once for our sins, the Just One on behalf of the unjust, so that he might offer us to God, having died, certainly, in the flesh, but having been enlivened by the Spirit. (19) And in the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison, going to those souls (20) who had been unbelieving in past times, while they waited for the patience of God, as in the days of Noah, when the ark was being built. In that ark, a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. (21) And now you also are saved, in a similar manner, by baptism, not by the testimony of sordid flesh, but by the examination of a good conscience in God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (22) He is at the right hand of God, devouring death, so that we may be made heirs to eternal life. And since he has journeyed to heaven, the Angels and powers and virtues are subject to him.
​

 

[Josiah]

This statement is from the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000. A document that is from a Southern Baptist perspective.

"Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper."

Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree.

I see Baptism as an action of God related to being born again (water).... it is God's act of love which adopts the person into the covenant and convey's God's blessings.

If it is an act of obedience and symbolic does that mean baptism must be by immersion?

I disagree with the premise and therefore with the conclusion.

What then should we make of infant baptism?

Since we are commanded to baptize and teach all... and never are we forbidden to baptize or teach any under some undisclosed age of "X" then I don't think we should do what God chose not to do and impose some age requirement to baptizing and teaching.

I think we should make much of baptism, as Scripture and the early Christians did. And I don't think we should shun those under some never disclosed age since Scripture does not and the early Christians did not.



Two Threads on Baptism....

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?3803-Five-Reasons-Why-Babies-Should-be-Baptized

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?1332-Infant-Baptism





Since you asked, lol



- Josiah

 

[atpollard]

Mat 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you [fn]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [fn]with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mar 1:8 “I baptized you [fn]with water; but He will baptize you [fn]with the Holy Spirit.”

Luk 3:16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you [fn]with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jhn 1:26 John answered them saying, “I baptize [fn]in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know.

Jhn 1:33 “I did not recognize [fn]Him, but He who sent me to baptize [fn]in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes [fn]in the Holy Spirit.'

1Co 1:16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [fn]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

I believe that there is a baptism administered by the hand of man that is performed as an act of repentence and involves water.
I believe that there is a baptism that is performed by God and involves, not water, but the Holy Spirit.
The baptism of God, like the cross of Christ, saves. The baptism of man ... does not.


Strong's Lexicon (G907)
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Thayer's Lexicon
1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 (where WH text ῥαντισωνται); Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30; Judith 12:7).
3. metaphorically, to overwhelm, as ἰδιωτας ταῖς ἐισφοραις, Diodorus 1, 73; ὀφλημασι, Plutarch, Galba 21; τῇ συμφορά βεβαπτισμενος, Heliodorus Aeth. 2, 3; and alone, to inflict great and abounding calamities on one: ἐβαπτισαν τήν πόλιν, Josephus, b. j. 4, 3, 3; ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, Isaiah 21:4 the Sept. hence, βαπτίζεσθαι βάπτισμα (cf. Winers Grammar, 225 (211); (Buttmann, 148 (129)); cf. λούεσθαι τό λουτρόν, Aelian de nat. an. 3, 42), to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them, Matthew 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50 (cf. the German etwasauszubadenhaben, and the use of the word e. g. respecting those who cross a river with difficulty, ἕως τῶν μαστῶν οἱ πεζοί βαπτιζόμενοι διέβαινον, Polybius 3, 72, 4; (for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon under the word; also T. J. Conant, βαπτίζειν, its meaning and use, N. Y. 1864 (printed also as an Appendix to their revised version of the Gospel of Matthew by the American Bible Union); and especially four works by J. W. Dale entitled Classic, Judaic, Johannic, Christic, Baptism, Phil. 1867ff; D. B. Ford, Studies on the Bapt. Quest. (including a review of Dr. Dale's works), Bost. 1879)).

 

[NewCreation435]

I disagree.

I see Baptism as an action of God related to being born again (water).... it is God's act of love which adopts the person into the covenant and convey's God's blessings.






I disagree with the premise and therefore with the conclusion.






Since we are commanded to baptize and teach all... and never are we forbidden to baptize or teach any under some undisclosed age of "X" then I don't think we should do what God chose not to do and impose some age requirement to baptizing and teaching.

I think we should make much of baptism, as Scripture and the early Christians did. And I don't think we should shun those under some never disclosed age since Scripture does not and the early Christians did not.



Two Threads on Baptism....

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?3803-Five-Reasons-Why-Babies-Should-be-Baptized

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?1332-Infant-Baptism





Since you asked, lol



- Josiah

Okay, give me one example of infant baptism in the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Okay, give me one example of infant baptism in the Bible.

'Whole households' were baptized. It stretches credulity to think that households in those days were as likely to have no children as to have some.

 

[Lamb]

Okay, give me one example of infant baptism in the Bible.

Entire households were baptized. Do you know of many households that didn't have birth control back then that would not have had an infant or child in it?

 

[Lamb]

'Whole households' were baptized. It stretches credulity to think that households in those days were as likely to have no children as to have some.

Oops I guess I should read the entire thread first before responding

 

[NewCreation435]

Entire households were baptized. Do you know of many households that didn't have birth control back then that would not have had an infant or child in it?

It also seems unlikely to me given the low social status of children in those days that they would be included. My problem with infant baptism is that infants can't make a conscious decision for themselves. I wrestled with this for quite a while since I was baptized myself as an infant in the Methodist church and then baptized much later for confirmation. Even at the confirmation I only did it because everyone else in my class was doing it, not because there was an change in me. I later was baptized by immersion in the Baptist faith in 1985 at the age of 16.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is likely that the household baptisms included children of various ages.

 

[Albion]

It also seems unlikely to me given the low social status of children in those days that they would be included.

I'm not sure that 'low status' is entirely correct. In one sense, that may be true but, OTOH, a male heir, family, additional hands to do the chores, and other considerations had greater importance among those people than they do today in our society.

My problem with infant baptism is that infants can't make a conscious decision for themselves.

Well, that begs the underlying question--is it critical that they DO make a conscious decision?

If you take the Baptistic POV, then you'd say yes. However, most Christians--and definitely the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history--believe and believed that this is not essential unless, obviously, the person is older. These Christians would answer that it's God's sacrament; it's not something that we recipients make valid by our permission. He is reaching to us, forgiving us, blessing us, and marking us as part of his church.

I've read a lot on these pages lately about gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the presumption among Pentecostals seemed to be that it's God's decision who gets which gifts or any at all. Yet when it comes to the sacraments, the idea seems to be that WE make them what they are. I don't think that's so.

 

[Josiah]

Okay, give me one example of infant baptism in the Bible.

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]


Friend, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.....


1. I don't accept the rubric that the teaching of the Bible is irrelevant, only the traditions/examples found in the Bible. Thus, with all due respect, your question is irrelevant. You think so too, I strongly suspect. Can you find even one example in the Bible of posting at a website on the internet? Yet you are doing so. Can you find even one case of a church using electricity or powerpoint? Even one example of a youth group? Even one example of people passing around little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little cups of Welch's Grape Juice? Friend, probably 99% of what your congregation does is not seen anywhere in the Bible. And can you find even one example in the Bible of an African-American or Hispanic or Korean being baptized? One example of a Gentile administering baptism? Did the congregation in Corinth have a website, a parking lot? Did they have a youth group and Sunday School? Did they use electricity? Did the preacher wear jeans and a Ahola shirt and use a mic? Did he hold a floppy, leather cover KJV Bible while he preached? Did it pass around grape juice and white bread for Communion? I'm being foolish but I'm SURE you see my point. With all due respect, I think you too reject your rubric.


2. We have a FEW examples of baptisms in the Bible. Probably fewer than 0.00000001% of the ones done in the First Century (a pretty small sample). And yes, it seems MOST of the very, very, very few examples of Baptism that happen to be recorded in the NT do seem to be of those past the never-disclosed age of "X." But not all of them. In some cases, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the age of those being baptized. For example, we're told that "all in her household" were baptized - with no hint as to the respective ages of each and whether each had celebrated their "X" birthday. True, I can't point to an example that states, "And this person had not yet celebrated their "X" birthday." But then you can't find an example of a Korean or Native American or Italian or German being baptized but that doesn't stop you. And you can't show that even the tiny number of examples in the Bible were all over the age of X.



Two Threads on Baptism....

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...ld-be-Baptized

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sho...Infant-Baptism



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

Those who believe God works in baptism will trust in infant baptism.

Those who don't see God working through baptism will not see how an infant is blessed in baptism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Anybody who thinks baptism is an act of obedience and a visible sign of personal faith has got a very unbiblical view of baptism.

 

[psalms 91]

Anybody who thinks baptism is an act of obedience and a visible sign of personal faith has got a very unbiblical view of baptism.

How do you see it? When peopkle were saved in Acts they were baptized, sort of leads one to see it as an act of faith

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you see it? When peopkle were saved in Acts they were baptized, sort of leads one to see it as an act of faith

I see Baptism as an action of the church in obedience to God's commandment (Mark 16:15-16) that unites the baptised person to Christ (Romans 6:3-9) and saves them (1 Peter 3:21) and enables them to see and enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

 

[psalms 91]

I see Baptism as an action of the church in obedience to God's commandment (Mark 16:15-16) that unites the baptised person to Christ (Romans 6:3-9) and saves them (1 Peter 3:21) and enables them to see and enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

I dont see baptism as a saving act but rather as an act because of being saved

 

[MoreCoffee]

I dont see baptism as a saving act but rather as an act because of being saved

I don't see what difference exists between baptism as "a saving act" and "an act because of being saved" unless you mean that one is saved quite apart from baptism and then you'd be contradicting both John 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 as well as the teaching in Romans 6:3-9.

 

[Albion]

I dont see baptism as a saving act but rather as an act because of being saved

I know. We are into a very fundamental disagreement between Christians. However, there are verses in scripture that do seem to say that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, which if true would mean IMO that it is not simply a gesture.

 

[Cassia]

I know. We are into a very fundamental disagreement between Christians. However, there are verses in scripture that do seem to say that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, which if true would mean IMO that it is not simply a gesture.

It's never been just a gesture to anyone but it's harder to believe that anyone who has not already been befriended by Jesus would ever want to be baptised.