Sinners Prayer in the Bible?

[Lamb]

This is slightly off topic, but connected:
I am put-off by churches and Christian organizations that use the sinners prayer to tally up the "converts" they generated as a ministry. These are generally good organizations, but they inadvertently turn the sinners prayer into a tally mark.
Perhaps the most prominent organization is the Billy Graham Association and its offspring, Samaritans Purse. Many other Arminian (free-will) groups have adopted the tally-mark policy as well. It seems to be a marketing scheme to attract donations and instill pride in the organization, all guised as a humble servant of God.

The bible tells us how many were saved by hearing the Gospel and then baptized but nothing indicated about a sinner's prayer. So numbers are good if it's caused by the Gospel in truth.

My experience from when I was a child was the local Baptist church would send out members to the neighborhoods where they would force people to say the prayer right there with them or they weren't saved!!! Even though people insisted they were believers and went to a church, it was no good unless that prayer was said. Horrible! My friends and I got trapped in a phone booth because one of those people wouldn't leave us alone and was telling us we were going to hell! That's not what Jesus had in mind when He sent out the disciples.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The bible tells us how many were saved by hearing the Gospel and then baptized but nothing indicated about a sinner's prayer. So numbers are good if it's caused by the Gospel in truth.

My experience from when I was a child was the local Baptist church would send out members to the neighborhoods where they would force people to say the prayer right there with them or they weren't saved!!! Even though people insisted they were believers and went to a church, it was no good unless that prayer was said. Horrible! My friends and I got trapped in a phone booth because one of those people wouldn't leave us alone and was telling us we were going to hell! That's not what Jesus had in mind when He sent out the disciples.

Just pretend that "sinner's prayer" is ancient gibberish for "hear the gospel be converted and receive baptism"

 

[Imalive]

The bible tells us how many were saved by hearing the Gospel and then baptized but nothing indicated about a sinner's prayer. So numbers are good if it's caused by the Gospel in truth.

My experience from when I was a child was the local Baptist church would send out members to the neighborhoods where they would force people to say the prayer right there with them or they weren't saved!!! Even though people insisted they were believers and went to a church, it was no good unless that prayer was said. Horrible! My friends and I got trapped in a phone booth because one of those people wouldn't leave us alone and was telling us we were going to hell! That's not what Jesus had in mind when He sent out the disciples.

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.ne...ngelism.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141204135723

 

[Josiah]

The prayer doesn't save at all though.

... and THAT'S the problem.

I think often there is a "Jesus PLUS" theology at work (perhaps not well thought out).

"Yes, Jesus is the Savior BUT FIRST you gotta say the sinner's prayer!" So, Jesus isn't the Savior! You are - by jumping through a tiny, easy hoop of saying a prayer (which God rewards with salvation).

"Yes, we're saved by grace BUT FIRST you gotta help 10 little old ladies across the street!" Then, it's not grace, is it? You PAY for it with the amazingly cheap price of helping 10 ladies (which God rewords with salvation).

"Yes, we're saved by grace via the Cross BUT FIRST you gotta surrender the steering wheel of your life!" Then it's not grace or the cross, is it? YOU accomplished salvation by handing over your steering wheel.


It's that big BUT that's the problem!


It's the "BUT FIRST YOU GOTTA" part that is SO very, very dangerous...... that ends up destroying the Gospel and Christianity.... that makes a mockery of Christ and the Cross... that denounces grace.... that creates a "terror of the conscience" and false ego. It's that big BUT that's the problem.


Now, I've posted before..... I heard one Baptist preacher (just before an "Altar Call") that if your heart is pounding.... if your palms are sweaty.... if the Spirit is tugging you to "come on down".... then you already believe, you already have been given faith, you already are saved...... your faith and the Holy Spirit are just compelling you to acknowledge it! Okay.... as a Lutheran.... I can live with that. But then why call it your decision? Why say you gotta do it in order to be saved? Seems confusing at best, deceptive more likely.... and encouraging people to reject the Gospel and embrace this "JESUS PLUS" theology which makes the Savior yourself and makes it all hinge on what self does (and it BETTER be done RIGHT!). Therein lies the problem.... that great big "BUT first YOU GOTTA" I can think of little good and MUCH very, very, very dangerous in this big BUT theology, this "BUT first YOU gotta say this prayer" practice. Even if it's not intentional.




Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah




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[Imalive]

The sinners prayer is for unsaved sinners who never heard the gospel.

 

[Josiah]

The sinners prayer is for unsaved sinners who never heard the gospel.

Then they aren't ever going to pray it. And it's not only very dangerous but useless.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The sinners prayer is for unsaved sinners who never heard the gospel.

If they do not hear the gospel then they are not going to pray, right?

 

[Albion]

The sinners prayer is for unsaved sinners who never heard the gospel.

I think you mean it is for people who had not heard the Gospel before (or, if they had heard it, had not been moved by it previously). The Sinners Prayer is customarily employed after the person has accepted the Gospel, right?

 

[Josiah]

I think you mean it is for people who had not heard the Gospel before (or, if they had heard it, had not been moved by it previously). The Sinners Prayer is customarily employed after the person has accepted the Gospel, right?

... with the theology of FIRST YOU GOTTA say this prayer, and THUS God will reward you with faith and salvation.

... and THAT'S the problem.


I think often there is a "Jesus PLUS" theology at work (perhaps not well thought out).


"Yes, Jesus is the Savior BUT FIRST you gotta say the sinner's prayer!" So, Jesus isn't the Savior! You are - by jumping through a tiny, easy hoop of saying a prayer (which God rewards with salvation).

"Yes, we're saved by grace BUT FIRST you gotta help 10 little old ladies across the street!" Then, it's not grace, is it? You PAY for it with the amazingly cheap price of helping 10 ladies (which God rewords with salvation).

"Yes, we're saved by grace via the Cross BUT FIRST you gotta surrender the steering wheel of your life!" Then it's not grace or the cross, is it? YOU accomplished salvation by handing over your steering wheel.


It's that big BUT that's the problem!



It's the "BUT FIRST YOU GOTTA" part that is SO very, very dangerous...... that ends up destroying the Gospel and Christianity.... that makes a mockery of Christ and the Cross... that denounces grace.... that creates a "terror of the conscience" and false ego. It's that big BUT that's the problem.



Now, I've posted before..... I heard one Baptist preacher (just before an "Altar Call") that if your heart is pounding.... if your palms are sweaty.... if the Spirit is tugging you to "come on down".... then you already believe, you already have been given faith, you already are saved...... your faith and the Holy Spirit are just compelling you to acknowledge it! Okay.... as a Lutheran.... I can live with that. But then why call it your decision? Why say you gotta do it in order to be saved? Seems confusing at best, deceptive more likely.... and encouraging people to reject the Gospel and embrace this "JESUS PLUS" theology which makes the Savior yourself and makes it all hinge on what self does (and it BETTER be done RIGHT!). Therein lies the problem.... that great big "BUT first YOU GOTTA" I can think of little good and MUCH very, very, very dangerous in this big BUT theology, this "BUT first YOU gotta say this prayer" practice.



.

- Josiah



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[Albion]

But IS that the way the Sinners Prayer is normally used?

All the examples I have witnessed (on TV) have followed the format of 1) hear the sermon calling the sinner to repentance, THEN, and only for those who come forward to make a commitment to the Lord, 2) The Sinners Prayer to seal the decision (and in the case of churches which think it is a necessary part of conversion to give testimony in public).

 

[MennoSota]

big BUT theology
Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah
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https://youtu.be/q9iDSKtTb-o

 

[MennoSota]

But IS that the way the Sinners Prayer is normally used?

All the examples I have witnessed (on TV) have followed the format of 1) hear the sermon calling the sinner to repentance, THEN, and only for those who come forward to make a commitment to the Lord, 2) The Sinners Prayer to seal the decision (and in the case of churches which think it is a necessary part of conversion to give testimony in public).

Josiah is hitting upon an important issue. Many churches, including the RC, are semi-pelagian where they mix salvation as a combination of God's work with human works to equal salvation. It's a cosmic stew with the special ingredient being Jesus atoning sacrifice, but all the other ingredients need to be present for salvation to work.
The argument, in semi-pelagian circles, is over what those other ingredients must be. For some it's repentance. For others it's the sinners prayer. For others it's the continual receiving of the eucharist. In each case, however, there is a stew needed with Jesus as the one core ingredient needed to seal the deal.

 

[Imalive]

I think you mean it is for people who had not heard the Gospel before (or, if they had heard it, had not been moved by it previously). The Sinners Prayer is customarily employed after the person has accepted the Gospel, right?

Yes, not to push Lutherans through their throat.

 

[Lamb]

Yes, not to push Lutherans through their throat.

What does that mean?

 

[Albion]

Josiah is hitting upon an important issue. Many churches, including the RC, are semi-pelagian where they mix salvation as a combination of God's work with human works to equal salvation. It's a cosmic stew with the special ingredient being Jesus atoning sacrifice, but all the other ingredients need to be present for salvation to work.
The argument, in semi-pelagian circles, is over what those other ingredients must be. For some it's repentance. For others it's the sinners prayer. For others it's the continual receiving of the eucharist. In each case, however, there is a stew needed with Jesus as the one core ingredient needed to seal the deal.

It looks to me that you slid a mention of the Sinners Prayer into that treatise on semi-pelagianism, ritualism, works righteousness, etc. etc. etc. as almost an incidental add-on. So, I am still left with the question I raised in my previous post.

 

[Albion]

Yes, not to push Lutherans through their throat.

Huh?

 

[MennoSota]

It looks to me that you slid a mention of the Sinners Prayer into that treatise on semi-pelagianism, ritualism, works righteousness, etc. etc. etc. as almost an incidental add-on. So, I am still left with the question I raised in my previous post.

Are you referring to this:

The Sinners Prayer is customarily employed after the person has accepted the Gospel, right?

Since God is the one who chooses to whom he will give life, any true hearing of the gospel means that God has made that person alive in Christ. Any prayer of confession and repentance is an effect of God's redeeming atonement for sin.
However, semi-pelagian teaching makes human effort a cause that coincides with God's effort to equal salvation. It's the big BUT that Josiah is referring to.

 

[Josiah]

So, I am still left with the question I raised in my previous post.

Friend, as I've posted before....

I heard one Baptist preacher (just before an "Altar Call") that if your heart is pounding.... if your palms are sweaty.... if the Spirit is tugging you to "come on down".... then you already believe, you already have been given faith, you already are saved...... your faith and the Holy Spirit are just compelling you to acknowledge it! Okay.... as a Lutheran.... I can live with that. But then why call it your decision? Why say you gotta do it in order to be saved? Seems confusing at best, deceptive more likely.... and encouraging people to reject the Gospel and embrace this "JESUS PLUS" theology which makes the Savior yourself and makes it all hinge on what self does (and it BETTER be done RIGHT!). Therein lies the problem.... that great big "BUT first YOU GOTTA" I can think of little good and MUCH very, very, very dangerous in this big BUT theology, this "BUT first YOU gotta say this prayer" practice. Even if it's not intentional.



.

I think there's a very critical theological reason why monergistic churches avoid these kind of salvation "hoops" (that and that WAS the central, key issue of the Reformation). Pelagians will insert these big "BUTS" because that's their theology, they effectively reject SOLA Gratia - SOLUS Christus - SOLA Fide. They make it "yeah BUT first you gotta....." The big BUT is the problem. It's Pelagianism. It destroys the Gospel, mocks the Cross, rejects Jesus as the Savior, and creates a "terror of the conscience" and Pharisical egoism (as both Luther and Calvin pointed out).


Now.... CAN the prayer be used as something AFTER salvation (in the limited sense of justication), as that Baptist preacher in my quote above suggests? As a ACKNOWLEDGEMENT and RESPONSE? Yes. As I've noted repeatedly in this thread, the words PER SE aren't bad - it's the inserting such into salvation that's the problem, it's the insisting this decision, these words, the "coming on down" are part of why you are saved. Do I think that IS how it's used? Yes. In fact, that's the only way I've heard or seen it used - even in that Baptist church in spite of the preacher's stated theology.... people were coming down to "get saved." People actually dated their salvation to the day they said the prayer and responded to the altar call. I agree with you, friend, the WORDS are fairly beneign, their function isn't. I think Pelagianism - in all its forms - is very dangerous, even though I think it's often embraced without intent or even awareness.


My perspective....


- Josiah

 

[Albion]

Al right, so that's one instance of a preacher putting a certain twist on the matter. And I'm going to assume that you will say its not an isolated example. My question from the beginning of this debate has been to ascertain what is the NORMAL use of the Sinners Prayer. No one ever answers that.

It is worth mentioning again that my church does not use the Sinners Prayer or any of this stuff at all. My interest in this issue is confined to what I think the issue was at the start. That concerned the use of the Sinners Prayer, not whether there are some pastors here or there who misuse it. Nor, for that matter, do I think that I am nit-picking the matter. Are pastors such as you describe typical of, say Baptist ministers? Or of most non-denominational pastors? Or are there odd-balls like the pastor in a liturgical denomination who elects to consecrate cake and Sangria for Communion? What?

 

[Josiah]

Al right, so that's one instance of a preacher doing what probably should be considered a case of cutting corners. And I'm going to assume that you will say its not an isolated example. My question from the beginning of this debate has been whether or not that is the NORMAL use of the Sinners Prayer. No one ever answers that.

Friend,

I'm not sure anyone here is going to be able to reference a scientific study that included EVERY case of this prayer being used...

MY experience (and I confess, it's limited and unscientific) is that it is.

YOUR experience (however numerous or scientific) may be different.

MY point is I think it's dangerous. And I gave my reasons why (don't think you responded to that, but that's okay!)




- Josiah