"I don't need a saviour"

[MoreCoffee]

Some in the world and a few who profess Christianity hold views that amount to saying "I do not need a saviour" and they do not need a saviour because they can, by their own efforts, overcome sin, Satan, and the world. That view is wrong. It is wrong for all sorts of reasons.

Thinking about grace is important.

Isaiah 26:1-21 On that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: We have a strong city; he sets up victory like walls and bulwarks. 2 Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in. 3 Those of steadfast mind you keep in peace--in peace because they trust in you. 4 Trust in the LORD for ever, for in the LORD GOD you have an everlasting rock. 5 For he has brought low the inhabitants of the height; the lofty city he lays low. He lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust. 6 The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy. 7 The way of the righteous is level; O Just One, you make smooth the path of the righteous. 8 In the path of your judgements, O LORD, we wait for you; your name and your renown are the soul's desire. 9 My soul yearns for you in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. 10 If favour is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely and do not see the majesty of the LORD. 11 O LORD, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them. 12 O LORD, you will ordain peace for us, for indeed, all that we have done, you have done for us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but we acknowledge your name alone. 14 The dead do not live; shades do not rise--because you have punished and destroyed them, and wiped out all memory of them. 15 But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. 16 O LORD, in distress they sought you, they poured out a prayer when your chastening was on them. 17 Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time, so were we because of you, O LORD; 18 we were with child, we writhed, but we gave birth only to wind. We have won no victories on earth, and no one is born to inhabit the world. 19 Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. 21 For the LORD comes out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no longer cover its slain.
​

 

[NewCreation435]

It was encouraging to hear him talk about the primacy of grace. But, then he turns around and says that it isn't grace alone.
Grace by its very definition is unmerited. The problem with many people is that they think they deserve it.

 

[Josiah]

It was encouraging to hear him talk about the primacy of grace. But, then he turns around and says that it isn't grace alone.
Grace by its very definition is unmerited. The problem with many people is that they think they deserve it.

That's the problem.....

In my Catholic days, this is how our Catholic teachers defined "grace." GRACE - the "gas" God puts in your tank so that you can get yourself where you need to get yourself. It's the enabling of God so that we can save ourselves. This "fit" perfectly with what they taught us about Justification: "God helps those who help themselves.... God opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it which we ourselves do by God's empowering." Thus, what we were taught is essentially that Jesus is NOT in any sense the Savior. He is the HELPER and the POSSIBILITY MAKER - He makes our salvation possible, He gives us the energy we need to pull it off, but WE pull it off. This, I learned, is essentially the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism albeit those religions don't specifically credit Jesus with the HELP or DOOR OPENING they just leave it as "God."

 

[Josiah]

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus and what Jesus did/does. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. HIS miracle. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (sanctification, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR surrender. Your decisions. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.



Which is it? Try answering that. There's NOTHING about which Christians must be more clear. Very, very clear. Because this is the keystone of Christianity, the defining point, the point on which it stands or falls.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, all Christianity falls into place.



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah





.

 

[Albion]

To be sure, they will not say ME, just as they cannot admit that they believe works save rather than faith or that faith comes from themselves rather than God.

But they will talk around it with all that's in them!

Watch.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was encouraging to hear him talk about the primacy of grace. But, then he turns around and says that it isn't grace alone.
Grace by its very definition is unmerited. The problem with many people is that they think they deserve it.

He didn't say anybody deserved grace. In fact he said exactly the opposite.

 

[MennoSota]

Some in the world and a few who profess Christianity hold views that amount to saying "I do not need a saviour" and they do not need a saviour because they can, by their own efforts, overcome sin, Satan, and the world. That view is wrong. It is wrong for all sorts of reasons.

Thinking about grace is important.

Isaiah 26:1-21 On that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: We have a strong city; he sets up victory like walls and bulwarks. 2 Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in. 3 Those of steadfast mind you keep in peace--in peace because they trust in you. 4 Trust in the LORD for ever, for in the LORD GOD you have an everlasting rock. 5 For he has brought low the inhabitants of the height; the lofty city he lays low. He lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust. 6 The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy. 7 The way of the righteous is level; O Just One, you make smooth the path of the righteous. 8 In the path of your judgements, O LORD, we wait for you; your name and your renown are the soul's desire. 9 My soul yearns for you in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. 10 If favour is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely and do not see the majesty of the LORD. 11 O LORD, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them. 12 O LORD, you will ordain peace for us, for indeed, all that we have done, you have done for us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but we acknowledge your name alone. 14 The dead do not live; shades do not rise--because you have punished and destroyed them, and wiped out all memory of them. 15 But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. 16 O LORD, in distress they sought you, they poured out a prayer when your chastening was on them. 17 Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time, so were we because of you, O LORD; 18 we were with child, we writhed, but we gave birth only to wind. We have won no victories on earth, and no one is born to inhabit the world. 19 Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a radiant dew, and the earth will give birth to those long dead. 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. 21 For the LORD comes out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no longer cover its slain.
​

How does Isaiah 26 apply to this thread? How does it fit with God's grace?

How can a reconciled person ever claim s/he didn't need a savior? It is the equivalent of a person living under the rule of ISIS saying they don't need saving. Only the follower of ISIS could say such a thing. A Christian would absolutely admit their need of salvation.

 

[NewCreation435]

He didn't say anybody deserved grace. In fact he said exactly the opposite.

He did say that it wasn't grace alone. I think this is what I see a major difference between Protestants and Catholic, although some Protestants act like it is about works. I have always been taught that we do the works we do not in order to earn salvation, but in gratitude because we are loved and saved by God. It changes the motivation to do good works from trying to earn salvation to out of love and gratitude because you are saved.
Not being sure if you are saved or not leads to uncertainty and fear. If it is up to me, then i don't have a chance. I know that and that is why it must all be about God's work in my life and not about what I have done. Because the truth is I haven't done that much. I'm not even sure a pure motive is possible with people.

 

[MoreCoffee]

He did say that it wasn't grace alone. I think this is what I see a major difference between Protestants and Catholic, although some Protestants act like it is about works. I have always been taught that we do the works we do not in order to earn salvation, but in gratitude because we are loved and saved by God. It changes the motivation to do good works from trying to earn salvation to out of love and gratitude because you are saved.
Not being sure if you are saved or not leads to uncertainty and fear. If it is up to me, then i don't have a chance. I know that and that is why it must all be about God's work in my life and not about what I have done. Because the truth is I haven't done that much. I'm not even sure a pure motive is possible with people.

He observed that grace is never alone just as faith is never alone. Being born from above (born again some say) is a whole life not parts only; not faith alone and though it is true that grace is the cause and the continuing energy of every good things that a child of God does it is nevertheless also true that the child of God does do things. The passage from Isaiah shows grace at work in the works of the people of God. That is why that passage says O LORD, you will ordain peace for us, for indeed, all that we have done, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12*) and as the bishop said grace is not in competition with what the faithful do. Grace is what enables the faithful to do what they do. Saint Paul stated it too when he observed that In him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28). It is we who live and move but this is given to us to do by God. Saint Paul observes it again when he writes For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life (Ephesians 2:10). It is God who gives grace and saves and who gives us a way to live and it is we who live the life that God has prepared for us - a life of good works.

* my bible says "For all our works have been wrought for us by you."

 

[atpollard]

He observed that grace is never alone just as faith is never alone. Being born from above (born again some say) is a whole life not parts only; not faith alone and though it is true that grace is the cause and the continuing energy of every good things that a child of God does it is nevertheless also true that the child of God does do things. The passage from Isaiah shows grace at work in the works of the people of God. That is why that passage says O LORD, you will ordain peace for us, for indeed, all that we have done, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12*) and as the bishop said grace is not in competition with what the faithful do. Grace is what enables the faithful to do what they do. Saint Paul stated it too when he observed that In him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28). It is we who live and move but this is given to us to do by God. Saint Paul observes it again when he writes For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life (Ephesians 2:10). It is God who gives grace and saves and who gives us a way to live and it is we who live the life that God has prepared for us - a life of good works.

* my bible says "For all our works have been wrought for us by you."

That is not quite an accurate parallel of what he said.

Even Protestants would point to Ephesians 2:10 and James and agree that a Christian will have works along with his grace and faith. However, salvation, the transformation from 'enemy of God' to 'child of God' takes place before the works. It is Jesus work that makes the change (Monergism). The works of a Christian life that we are to walk in, come after we are a Christian and begin living a Christian life.

The Bishop embraced Grace as God's contribution and Works as our contribution to an ongoing 'salvation' ... the heart of 'Synergism.' Far too much blood, ink and electrons have been spilled attempting to debate intractable positions on this matter, so I will just say that Monergism and Synergism (even if it is not Pelagianism) are not the same thing and are irreconcilable points of view.

In my opinion, the fact that Monergists virtually always turn to Scripture verses as the sole support for their position, while Synergists almost always turn to 'Scripture plus logic' or 'scripture plus traditions', speaks volumes.

 

[MennoSota]

That is not quite an accurate parallel of what he said.

Even Protestants would point to Ephesians 2:10 and James and agree that a Christian will have works along with his grace and faith. However, salvation, the transformation from 'enemy of God' to 'child of God' takes place before the works. It is Jesus work that makes the change (Monergism). The works of a Christian life that we are to walk in, come after we are a Christian and begin living a Christian life.

The Bishop embraced Grace as God's contribution and Works as our contribution to an ongoing 'salvation' ... the heart of 'Synergism.' Far too much blood, ink and electrons have been spilled attempting to debate intractable positions on this matter, so I will just say that Monergism and Synergism (even if it is not Pelagianism) are not the same thing and are irreconcilable points of view.

In my opinion, the fact that Monergists virtually always turn to Scripture verses as the sole support for their position, while Synergists almost always turn to 'Scripture plus logic' or 'scripture plus traditions', speaks volumes.

Well said.