Blood Curse?

[tango]

I dont know, he had a loooong testimonial but he did make some good arguments at times. His says how the Catholic church kept complicating Gods true message, that through grace and belief in Jesus resurrection once one receives the Holy Spirit they are repented and become sons of God not of man. That true faith is rejoicing in God and stretching out arms in praise as true believers instead of complicating the message with man made rituals creeds and dogma and so on.
He had people stand on one side of the alter to represent Sons of God who are naturally rejoicing and praising thanks to God, and the other side representing Sons of Man huddled together trying to figure out the trinity. How the church would ban the Bible and persecute those and excommunicate those who had it, how they burned up and murdered non Trinitarians and Holy men for giving the book back to the people.
I actually agreed with that part but then he started talking about hell thats always a buzzkill. Just because rebellious "leaders" of the church did evil deeds it should not reflect on the people ever. Let God handle them but dont believe for a second that YOU know peoples place of judgment.
Half of it was alright because Im always down with the study of christianity history but when someone asserts bias towards a peoples I lose interest. The other half was a reflection of his personal struggles with the church.

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It sounds like a regular church service to me. I'm not sure how someone coming into a church presenting a rather bizarre message counts as a revival just because he has a few good points to make among the weirdness.

 

[Andrew]

I understand and do not want to butt in just to criticize unnecessarily. However, the main (and just about only) Pentecostal church that is anti-Trinitarian is the UPC which is widely considered to be a cult. So for the congregation to feature a speaker who taught that it was non-Trinitarians who were the good people and were the ones who were persecuted unjustly made me wonder.

They believe in the three manifestations of God but not three Gods or something. Or just the spirit of God who is called God almighty, wonderful teacher counsellor etc. The Oneness of God is something I have always felt personally, Jesus and the father are one, the word and God are one, The Holy Spirit is God all the same. There is a separation from God or there is impartation of God in man through the spirit of God. To me its all the same difference but sometime ago someone reworded the explanation to make it SOUND like something divided when its really not, in other words im both and neither and undecided because its not important of a debate and I refuse to draw the line of schism between churches since we as Christians all worship the same God of Abraham. Its all politics to me to even debate, it causes separation and I dont agree with separations, that is confusion.
So if any church is anti trinity(oneness) i dont care and if they are pro trinity i also dont care, pray to God.
Oh and I wasnt implying that any christian prays to three "gods" i hate when churches say that about Catholicism, sounds like something muslims say

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[Andrew]

It sounds like a regular church service to me. I'm not sure how someone coming into a church presenting a rather bizarre message counts as a revival just because he has a few good points to make among the weirdness.

I guess because they added an extra day and we are to fast and bring people in and baptize and so on. I really cant tell you because I made it to only 2 of the revival meetings due to work, from what I heard I missed a day where they were baptizing in the Holy Spirit and many new were saved.

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[Albion]

They believe in the three manifestations of God but not three Gods or something. Or just the spirit of God who is called God almighty, wonderful teacher counsellor etc. The Oneness of God is something I have always felt personally, Jesus and the father are one, the word and God are one, The Holy Spirit is God all the same. There is a separation from God or there is impartation of God in man through the spirit of God. To me its all the same difference but sometime ago someone reworded the explanation to make it SOUND like something divided when its really not, in other words im both and neither and undecided because its not important of a debate and I refuse to draw the line of schism between churches since we as Christians all worship the same God of Abraham. Its all politics to me to even debate, it causes separation and I dont agree with separations, that is confusion.
So if any church is anti trinity(oneness) i dont care and if they are pro trinity i also dont care, pray to God.
Oh and I wasnt implying that any christian prays to three "gods" i hate when churches say that about Catholicism, sounds like something muslims say

Jesus did say that he and the Father were "one" -- in purpose, that is. But many times he described the Father as something other than himself. He did not pray to himself in the garden before his crucifixion, for instance.

All that aside, it might be a good idea to look into what affiliation your local congregation has. Is it United Pentecostal Church or one of the others? And then read up on what that denomination stands for. That's no more than what other Christians looking at possible membership do when they are looking at the numerous Lutheran churches or Baptist churches, for example.

 

[Andrew]

Jesus did say that he and the Father were "one" -- in purpose, that is. But many times he described the Father as something other than himself except in a different manifestation. He did not pray to himself in the garden before his crucifixion, for example. All that aside, it might be a good idea to look into what affiliation your local congregation has. Is it United Pentecostal Church or one of the others? And then read up on what that denomination stands for. That's no more than what other Christians looking at possible membership do when they are looking at the numerous Lutheran churches or Baptist churches, for example.

I will. However just for the record I can never agree wholly with everything any church teaches, my middle ground or balance is between me and God.
God is not spirit, God is not spirits, "God is a spirit" and I do believe in the manifestations of the spirit

I did look up the upc or upci, but no church should set up rules and guidelines as such, churches today really are becoming lukewarm... barf!

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[Imalive]

They believe in the three manifestations of God but not three Gods or something. Or just the spirit of God who is called God almighty, wonderful teacher counsellor etc. The Oneness of God is something I have always felt personally, Jesus and the father are one, the word and God are one, The Holy Spirit is God all the same. There is a separation from God or there is impartation of God in man through the spirit of God. To me its all the same difference but sometime ago someone reworded the explanation to make it SOUND like something divided when its really not, in other words im both and neither and undecided because its not important of a debate and I refuse to draw the line of schism between churches since we as Christians all worship the same God of Abraham. Its all politics to me to even debate, it causes separation and I dont agree with separations, that is confusion.
So if any church is anti trinity(oneness) i dont care and if they are pro trinity i also dont care, pray to God.
Oh and I wasnt implying that any christian prays to three "gods" i hate when churches say that about Catholicism, sounds like something muslims say

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I dont think it matters. How Michael Brown explains it to Jews, they get saved and the Trinity doctrine keeps em from getting saved, because you may not worship a man. They don't get it.
I asked God once. He said for the Trinity look at Jesus: Father, Son and Holy Spirit in one Body. The Father spoke. Jesus only said what He told Him and the Holy Spirit did the miracles. In Him the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily. So I bet a lot thought Jesus was only one Person. Cant blame em. Those circles from Trinitarians to show God aren't correct. You should place all 3 over each other and you can hardly see it's 3.

 

[tango]

I will. However just for the record I can never agree wholly with everything any church teaches, my middle ground or balance is with between God and me.
God is not spirit, God is not spirits, "God is a spirit" and I do believe in the manifestations of the spirit

I did look up the upc or upci, but no church should set up rules and guidelines as such, churches today really are becoming lukewarm... barf!

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As you look, look at the church and how things progress on an ongoing basis as well. This is particularly important when there is much talk of "revival", especially if the language suggests that we get to decide when a revival takes place.

A church I attended for a time constantly talked of the latest great move of the Spirit, the minister constantly reminded us how he believed a huge revival was coming (and, needless to say, it was going to start at his church), they constantly declared the new wave of whatever-it-is-today. Yet despite the apparently great moves of the Spirit most of the pews remained empty. The time they spent "breaking curses off of the land" (whatever that means) yielded no discernible results, other than many words being spoken about how breaking the curses would pave the way for a great move of the Spirit. The minister talked of the coming revival for nearly three years before changing the record, since most of the very few people who had visited the church hadn't stayed. The declarations of coming prosperity clashed with the ongoing struggle to pay the rent and the bills, to the point the minister often didn't collect his salary because there wasn't enough money to pay for it. Despite the relentless push to break off this curse and that curse the church was permanently very needy.

In short, despite lots of fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric the reality fell so far short of the rhetoric it just wasn't funny. Last I heard the minister resigned and the church split in two. Given how small it was before it split I'm surprised either half can survive but somehow they muddle on, presumably still declaring themselves to be highly favored by God.

If you see lots of people "being saved" but few extra seats filled each week, be careful. If lots of people are "being delivered" but the line for ministry never seems to get any smaller, be careful. If the leadership never misses a chance to invite people to "offer a love gift", be careful (and to be clear, there's a difference between a regular offering and relentless pressure to "sow a seed" or whatever else they want to call it). If the church is very quick to take from its membership but very slow to give anything back (e.g. if the minister is always asking people for a lift but any time you need a ride you're on your own), it's probably wise to head for the exits. If people like this strange preacher are a regular feature, it may be time to look for a different church.

 

[Andrew]

As you look, look at the church and how things progress on an ongoing basis as well. This is particularly important when there is much talk of "revival", especially if the language suggests that we get to decide when a revival takes place.

A church I attended for a time constantly talked of the latest great move of the Spirit, the minister constantly reminded us how he believed a huge revival was coming (and, needless to say, it was going to start at his church), they constantly declared the new wave of whatever-it-is-today. Yet despite the apparently great moves of the Spirit most of the pews remained empty. The time they spent "breaking curses off of the land" (whatever that means) yielded no discernible results, other than many words being spoken about how breaking the curses would pave the way for a great move of the Spirit. The minister talked of the coming revival for nearly three years before changing the record, since most of the very few people who had visited the church hadn't stayed. The declarations of coming prosperity clashed with the ongoing struggle to pay the rent and the bills, to the point the minister often didn't collect his salary because there wasn't enough money to pay for it. Despite the relentless push to break off this curse and that curse the church was permanently very needy.

In short, despite lots of fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric the reality fell so far short of the rhetoric it just wasn't funny. Last I heard the minister resigned and the church split in two. Given how small it was before it split I'm surprised either half can survive but somehow they muddle on, presumably still declaring themselves to be highly favored by God.

If you see lots of people "being saved" but few extra seats filled each week, be careful. If lots of people are "being delivered" but the line for ministry never seems to get any smaller, be careful. If the leadership never misses a chance to invite people to "offer a love gift", be careful (and to be clear, there's a difference between a regular offering and relentless pressure to "sow a seed" or whatever else they want to call it). If the church is very quick to take from its membership but very slow to give anything back (e.g. if the minister is always asking people for a lift but any time you need a ride you're on your own), it's probably wise to head for the exits. If people like this strange preacher are a regular feature, it may be time to look for a different church.

Some days the sermons are very bland or perhaps its just me, I cant tell the difference if they get lazy or they are under minding the followers. They are getting to know me a little bit but unlike most potentials who come in I have been studying scripture heavily since 2011 and have done a fair share of research on church history.
So I do keep watch at all times, I know the stories that they bring up very well and can relate to how they concord it to our daily lives in Christ, but I might have to start talking if they keep slipping in church bashing.
I believe in full repentance of sins other than just saying "im sorry forgive me" your whole life but for those uneducated or asleep in Christ they may never grasp that, for us we know and should put on the armor. Take for instance my dad, he knows only what the church has told him growing up, he believes in Jesus but he is ignorant of what the bible says. He gets depressed and drinks a lot but he is a gentle soul who believes in the resurrection. Is it his fault that his church spoke only latin in mass so he understood nothing? But because he believes he will have salvation. Thats probably the main thing I have charge against both UPC and RCC teachings, that there is no salvation outside their church.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality



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[MennoSota]

My friend is giving me a cd of the whole revival, i can upload it for you lol.
I was cringing the whole time, fidgeting around the pew and ended up just looking down at my feet ignoring him

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Cringe worthy revivals...kind of an oxymoron...don't you think?

I have yet to see a Spirit lead planned revival.

I have seen revivals where people earnestly prayed that God would work in bringing repentance to hearts. God was gracious over time. I have never seen a marketed revival be anything more than a money making emotion making meeting of charlatans playing on vulnerable people looking for hope from men rather than God.

You know how God started the Great Awakening in the American colonies? A couple pastors prayed that God would bring repentance to their congregation. To make sure the movement was of God they purposed in their hearts to read from a script in a monotone voice, devoid of emotion, so that only the Spirit of God could be given credit.

2/3rds of the colonies came to saving faith.

Now...that's a revival.

 

[MennoSota]

Just my six penneth here, but curses whether sealed with blood or not do not have anything to do with God, in fact the opposite is true, curses usually invoke evil spirits into a situation or life.

In the case you quote in the OP it is very reasonable to extrapolate that the Holocaust and much of the persecution of the Jewish people was linked to the 'blood curse' of the Jewish Elders at the Crucifixion.

This definitely a case of needing to be careful what you wish for, there are powers at work in our world that few of us understand or even recognise and a lot of them have evil intent for anyone who professes faith in our God.


Pete from Peterborough UK

We are children of the Creator. He is our Father. The Spirit of God indwells us. We have no need to fear any puny spirits. They cannot touch the child of the King except by the Kings agreement. Read the book of Job. Nothing can ever happen except by God's good ordinance which is done for our good. I get so tired of hearing Christians talk like demons are gonna get us. They can't touch us, except by God saying, okay. Declare your identification as a child of God and then walk in and watch the gates of hell crumble at the authority of the King of Kings.
Never fear!

 

[MennoSota]

Pure and simple satan has been out to destroy Gods peopel from the beginning and it hasnt changed

Satan can't touch us except by God's agreement. Never fear!

 

[MennoSota]

I dont know, he had a loooong testimonial but he did make some good arguments at times. His says how the Catholic church kept complicating Gods true message, that through grace and belief in Jesus resurrection once one receives the Holy Spirit they are repented and become sons of God not of man. That true faith is rejoicing in God and stretching out arms in praise as true believers instead of complicating the message with man made rituals creeds and dogma and so on.
He had people stand on one side of the alter to represent Sons of God who are naturally rejoicing and praising thanks to God, and the other side representing Sons of Man huddled together trying to figure out the trinity. How the church would ban the Bible and persecute those and excommunicate those who had it, how they burned up and murdered non Trinitarians and Holy men for giving the book back to the people.
I actually agreed with that part but then he started talking about hell thats always a buzzkill. Just because rebellious "leaders" of the church did evil deeds it should not reflect on the people ever. Let God handle them but dont believe for a second that YOU know peoples place of judgment.
Half of it was alright because Im always down with the study of christianity history but when someone asserts bias towards a peoples I lose interest. The other half was a reflection of his personal struggles with the church.

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A disciple of Charles Finney...
It's sad to see the damage brought on by Finney's heretical camp meetings.

 

[MennoSota]

They believe in the three manifestations of God but not three Gods or something. Or just the spirit of God who is called God almighty, wonderful teacher counsellor etc. The Oneness of God is something I have always felt personally, Jesus and the father are one, the word and God are one, The Holy Spirit is God all the same. There is a separation from God or there is impartation of God in man through the spirit of God. To me its all the same difference but sometime ago someone reworded the explanation to make it SOUND like something divided when its really not, in other words im both and neither and undecided because its not important of a debate and I refuse to draw the line of schism between churches since we as Christians all worship the same God of Abraham. Its all politics to me to even debate, it causes separation and I dont agree with separations, that is confusion.
So if any church is anti trinity(oneness) i dont care and if they are pro trinity i also dont care, pray to God.
Oh and I wasnt implying that any christian prays to three "gods" i hate when churches say that about Catholicism, sounds like something muslims say

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May I suggest that they are a cult?

God is one being in three persons of the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

 

[Andrew]

Cringe worthy revivals...kind of an oxymoron...don't you think?

I have yet to see a Spirit lead planned revival.

I have seen revivals where people earnestly prayed that God would work in bringing repentance to hearts. God was gracious over time. I have never seen a marketed revival be anything more than a money making emotion making meeting of charlatans playing on vulnerable people looking for hope from men rather than God.

You know how God started the Great Awakening in the American colonies? A couple pastors prayed that God would bring repentance to their congregation. To make sure the movement was of God they purposed in their hearts to read from a script in a monotone voice, devoid of emotion, so that only the Spirit of God could be given credit.

2/3rds of the colonies came to saving faith.

Now...that's a revival.

Well the revival was not completely lost, I personally did not agree with some of the teachings but his calling for revival was to bring Catholics in. So as I converted from Catholicism so shall others, unfortunately the only catholics I know are the elderly in which I feel no need to shake their faith near the end of their lives. If I came across a youth that is in sinful nature and are not interested in their Catholic faith or is confused by it I will call them in, which I have. So far three of my friends have joined the revival and stayed, one more is considering and more are converting from atheist to Christianity so the spirit IS moving in the community.
The man said some things that I feel was out of line but it didnt stop the fire of God from spreading among a few of my peers. I have noticed more seats being filled
The sermon today was excellent I saw no foul of it. This is a busy church as well so many teachings are not prepared but are still very good, they might slip from me sometimes but I must consider some patience for them. Attendees are expected to make it to every service if they can. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Sunday morning and Sunday evening. I can only make it Sunday mornings and once on the weekday.

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[MennoSota]

Well the revival was not completely lost, I personally did not agree with some of the teachings but his calling for revival was to bring Catholics in. So as I converted from Catholicism so shall others, unfortunately the only catholics I know are the elderly in which I feel no need to shake their faith near the end of their lives. If I came across a youth that is in sinful nature and are not interested in their Catholic faith or is confused by it I will call them in, which I have. So far three of my friends have joined the revival and stayed, one more is considering and more are converting from atheist to Christianity so the spirit IS moving in the community.
The man said some things that I feel was out of line but it didnt stop the fire of God from spreading among a few of my peers. I have noticed more seats being filled
The sermon today was excellent I saw no foul of it. This is a busy church as well so many teachings are not prepared but are still very good, they might slip from me sometimes but I must consider some patience for them. Attendees are expected to make it to every service if they can. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Sunday morning and Sunday evening. I can only make it Sunday mornings and once on the weekday.

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You comments sound like there is a lot of activity, but little true Spirit - filled substance.

What does the Bible express about how a person is brought to saving faith?

If you study, I suggest that God's work of salvation is not what is being experienced in your church.

 

[Andrew]

May I suggest that they are a cult?

God is one being in three persons of the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

Yup, all one Spirit as well. The debate is two faced like i said, a fight between two churches both claiming to be the apostolic church. One describes One spirit in three manifestations and the other describes three manifestations of One spirit... Its confusion that began in the early church.
One person told me that when apostasy took hold of the early church it drove the apostolic church underground and by the 3rd century the false church created confusion with the trinity creed to sanctify and establish the universal one world religion and that the revival is unrecognized as the first church but will.... I cant vouch for that but the "Heads" of the Catholic church were pretty hardcore evil for a good while and trinity was first taught in the 3rd century AD, like I said, Same spirit of God in three manifestations or persons its all the same to me, in the Name (under the name, not names) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

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[MennoSota]

Yup, all one Spirit as well. The debate is two faced like i said, a fight between two churches both claiming to be the apostolic church. One describes One spirit in three manifestations and the other describes three manifestations of One spirit... Its confusion that began in the early church.
One person told me that when apostasy took hold of the early church it drove the apostolic church underground and by the 3rd century the false church created confusion with the trinity creed to sanctify and establish the universal one world religion and that the revival is unrecognized as the first church but will.... I cant vouch for that but the "Heads" of the Catholic church were pretty hardcore evil for a good while and trinity was first taught in the 3rd century AD, like I said, Same spirit of God in three manifestations or persons its all the same to me, in the Name (under the name, not names) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

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God is not a God of confusion. If there is confusion then it's coming from hell.

 

[Andrew]

God is not a God of confusion. If there is confusion then it's coming from hell.

My point exactly brother! Did Paul not preach about this?
Thats why I stay out of it, the politics, the inner workings and mystery symbolism and networks of creeds and such in such, thats why I converted to Pentecostal because its come as you are fall down in worship and truly repent, and then BAM you have order restored by the grace of God and you praise God the father through the Holy Spirit by the testimony of his Son Jesus Christ

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[Andrew]

You comments sound like there is a lot of activity, but little true Spirit - filled substance.

What does the Bible express about how a person is brought to saving faith?

If you study, I suggest that God's work of salvation is not what is being experienced in your church.

Its full on Spirit, its praising the Spirit in the Spirit by the Spirit, it hits like an atomic bomb in our little hut. But DONT take MY word for it

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[MennoSota]

My point exactly brother! Did Paul not preach about this?
Thats why I stay out of it, the politics, the inner workings and mystery symbolism and networks of creeds and such in such, thats why I converted to Pentecostal because its come as you are fall down in worship and truly repent, and then BAM you have order restored by the grace of God and you praise God the father through the Holy Spirit by the testimony of his Son Jesus Christ

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I'm sorry you're not making sense.
Why be in a confusing pentacostal church where it's emotional with little theology?
What attracts you to such contradiction and confusion in your church?