Books Containing Modern Day Miracles and Supernatural Events

[Hebrews 11]

I wouldn't say my beliefs are representative of Open Theism.



I'm not sure how that is relevant to the teaching of guaranteed healing.



If you want to say the curse of sin is broken, why not also the curse of death? It's needlessly selective.



Galatians 3 only goes to verse 29, so I assume you mistyped something there



Again I don't see how this is relevant to the teaching of guaranteed healing. God is not a respecter of persons - God has the absolute right to heal the pauper and not heal the king, to heal the slave and not the master, as he sees fit.



Still not relevant to guaranteed healing.



Because God gets to decide what he does. It's one of the perks of being God I guess.



Sure, but it's still not clear how that is relevant to the topic at hand.



Some teachers do seem to like messages incorporating a guarantee of financial prosperity, perfect health and the like. Maybe not an entirely trouble-free life but still not entirely in tune with "take up your cross and follow me".



I think what WOF believes is quite clear by now, but restating what you believe doesn't add anything to the discussion regarding the merits or otherwise of that belief.

It still seems to me that this particular WOF teaching at least is trying to take things that are intended for the future and bring them into the here and now. The new heaven and the new earth is the place with no more sickness, no more pain, no more sorrow, no more death. That's for the future, not for now. Trying to take it in the here and now seems presumptuous at best.

Have you considered the Lord's prayer?
The part that states on earth as it is in Heaven?

Or the statement : what you bind on earth you bind in Heaven?

You do not see the relevance of God's nature nor the verses pertaining to Healing.

I completely understand,I was raised Baptist and later in life attended a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church for a few years.
Not that I am saying your a Baptist ,just that the Baptist believe healing is conditional.

The sweet by and by is a miserable life,always hoping for eternity to shed the afflictions of this earth.

It makes you wonder what is the reason for it all?

To witness?
Why?
Do we tell people sick broke and busted is our way truth and life,but one day...by and by?

This is the day the Lord has made ,Christ taught healing through faith .
Was there anyone who came to him that he denied healing for?

Oh Paul's thorn that supports the idea God will for healing is not for everyone,based on one statement.

MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.
sufficient Translate Button
[suh-fish-uh nt]
Spell Syllables
adjective
1.
adequate for the purpose; enough:
sufficient proof; sufficient protection.
2.
Logic. (of a condition) such that its existence leads to the occurrence of a given event or the existence of a given thing.
Webster.
2 Corinthians: 4. 13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

What's not seen?
Hebrews: 11. 1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2. For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I stand corrected on my reference in Galations .
Galatians: 3. 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


I don't have time to banter this topic much more,we can disagree and still be one in Christ.

 

[tango]

Have you considered the Lord's prayer?
The part that states on earth as it is in Heaven?

What point are you trying to make here?

Or the statement : what you bind on earth you bind in Heaven?

You still need to consider the overall will of God, or you end up in all sorts of silly rabbit trails. If you bind something and I immediately loose it again, is it bound or loosed? Or does it only matter which of us spoke last, in which case you've got a theology that's little more than a pantomime-like "Oh yes it is" against "Oh no it isn't". You also end up elevating man to the status of God if we have absolute authority to bind and loose based on our own will, in which case you create an endless clutch of gods squabbling over whether something is bound or loosed.

You do not see the relevance of God's nature nor the verses pertaining to Healing.

If you really want to say that I don't see something it would be really useful if you'd explain what you think I'm not seeing.

I completely understand,I was raised Baptist and later in life attended a Independent Fundamental Baptist Church for a few years.
Not that I am saying your a Baptist ,just that the Baptist believe healing is conditional.

... and this is relevant how?

The sweet by and by is a miserable life,always hoping for eternity to shed the afflictions of this earth.

Really? Paul seemed quite content with it, despite having said he knew plenty and he had little, he had been beaten and bound in chains. Even James (the same James that wrote the passage that people use to claim healing is unconditional) started his letter by saying people should rejoice when they face trials.

It makes you wonder what is the reason for it all?

To witness?
Why?
Do we tell people sick broke and busted is our way truth and life,but one day...by and by?

We could learn a lesson from the likes of the early apostles who rejoiced they were considered worthy to suffer for Christ's sake. Or maybe Habakkuk, who (paraphrased) said that even though the world was falling apart around him he would still rejoice in the Lord.

This is the day the Lord has made ,Christ taught healing through faith .
Was there anyone who came to him that he denied healing for?

We don't see people recorded in the Bible who were not healed by Jesus but to extrapolate from that to assume that everyone who ever asks for healing will be healed is a bit of a stretch. Not least because Timothy wasn't healed, not to mention the countless people today who aren't healed despite being prayed for repeatedly over many years).

Oh Paul's thorn that supports the idea God will for healing is not for everyone,based on one statement.

It only takes one example to break a theory that includes words like "always" and "never". If we have a theory that "God never heals" then one divine healing breaks the theory. Likewise the theory "God always heals" is broken by one person who is not healed. If a theology is to be consistent it needs to explain the verses that appear to contradict it - anything less is little more than cherrypicking the verses you happen to like, which is more akin to "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law". It's easy to follow the verses that confirm what we want to believe, the bit that carries the cost is following the verses that are inconvenient.

MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.
sufficient Translate Button
[suh-fish-uh nt]
Spell Syllables
adjective
1.
adequate for the purpose; enough:
sufficient proof; sufficient protection.
2.
Logic. (of a condition) such that its existence leads to the occurrence of a given event or the existence of a given thing.
Webster.

Thanks for the dictionary definition. What point are you trying to make?

2 Corinthians: 4. 13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

What's not seen?
Hebrews: 11. 1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2. For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

None of this is relevant to the notion that God will always heal. I'm not disputing that miracles sometimes happen, that God sometimes heals, that the invisible world of angels and demons exists. The issue is whether God will always heal and, in the context of this thread (since it started to cross-thread with the other one about healing) how we go about testing any claimed miracle. Quoting verses that reference miracles, faith and an unseen world add nothing to the discussion because the existence of an unseen spiritual world doesn't mean God will heal any more or less frequently.

I stand corrected on my reference in Galations .
Galatians: 3. 13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

You're still not saying how this is relevant to the topic at hand. It's easy to quote Scripture but you need to answer the "so what?" question.

I don't have time to banter this topic much more,we can disagree and still be one in Christ.

I wouldn't call a theological discussion "banter", I think it's important to know whether miracles are genuine and whether God's healing is guaranteed. Not least because if healing is guaranteed then anyone who isn't healed (or who isn't seeing healings all around them) must be doing something fundamentally wrong and therefore needs to get right with God. I don't think it's an option at all to leave something hanging in a sense of "maybe your walk with God is so massively flawed you're totally outside of his will but hey, we don't need to talk about this, I've got other things to do"

 

[Hebrews 11]

You continue to not see the reasons for the posted Word,so there is no point in going forward.

I am not being condescending or backhanded we simply cannot find common ground.

 

[tango]

You continue to not see the reasons for the posted Word,so there is no point in going forward.

I am not being condescending or backhanded we simply cannot find common ground.

You could start by not insisting it's me that can't see. If one of us is wrong it might be me and it might be you. Assuming I'm wrong and "just not seeing it" rather than addressing objections made comes across as little more than "I can't counter your points so I'll make backhanded jabs that questions your intelligence".

 

[psalms 91]

or perhaps he just grows weary with it as I did.

 

[tango]

or perhaps he just grows weary with it as I did.

It's hard to see how one grows weary of a discussion when one is not adding anything relevant.

I don't see references to my arguments, I don't see explanations for why Scripture verses quoted are relevant to the discussion, I just see vague comments about having faith and apparently random verses posted with no indication of how (or indeed whether) they are relevant. Truth be told I grow weary of figuring out whether people are merely playing Bible Roulette but if something is of any importance (and since it seems one of us is so badly wrong we are calling good evil and calling evil good I'd say it is of crucial importance) then we can't claim to love each other if we merely shrug and say "oh well, I'm bored of you, work it out for yourself", can we?

 

[psalms 91]

Actually we can, for why contend if someone is firm in their belief and you have shown what you believe and why and still it remains the same, after that I believe the Word says to let them go and not contend.

 

[tango]

Actually we can, for why contend if someone is firm in their belief and you have shown what you believe and why and still it remains the same, after that I believe the Word says to let them go and not contend.

Which would be fine, if there were some Scripture offered as to why people believe the way they do and explanations in response to questions.

What I see is a few verses of Scripture offered and when the context is questioned the deflection tactics start. If it's not about having faith it's about anointing or decrying carnal reasoning or whatever else, but no reference to Scripture other than a few verses quoted with no regard to context and generic arguments that could just as easily support the exact opposite argument.

It does make it hard to test a claim when the proponents of that claim seem so very determined not to allow their theories to be tested. Endless deflection is good for wearing people down but does nothing to validate an argument. At best it results in people going away because they get bored of the deflections. If questions could be answered and objections addressed it would support a theory, rather than endless talk of faith and anointing and carnal reasoning going round in circles until people give up and move on.

 

[Biblicist]

For those who are looking for a reasonably indepth look into the question of healing etc, even though I have never read Craig Keener's two volume book titled, Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2011), from the various reviews that I have seen it has apparently gained a lot acceptance.

The use of 'miracles' in the title is not something that I find particularly helpful as the word is never used in the New Testament, so it tends to mean whatever people want it to mean. But as it is a work by Craig Keener, I would expect that the book would be well written.

 

[Hebrews 11]

For those who are looking for a reasonably indepth look into the question of healing etc, even though I have never read Craig Keener's two volume book titled, Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2011), from the various reviews that I have seen it has apparently gained a lot acceptance.

The use of 'miracles' in the title is not something that I find particularly helpful as the word is never used in the New Testament, so it tends to mean whatever people want it to mean. But as it is a work by Craig Keener, I would expect that the book would be well written.

Mar 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Joh 4:54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.
Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 10:41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
Joh 12:18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? For that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Act 4:22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.

Why would you doubt the credibility of the Bible?
Resource Grace Bible Collage.

 

[Hebrews 11]

For those who are looking for a reasonably indepth look into the question of healing etc, even though I have never read Craig Keener's two volume book titled, Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts (2011), from the various reviews that I have seen it has apparently gained a lot acceptance.

The use of 'miracles' in the title is not something that I find particularly helpful as the word is never used in the New Testament, so it tends to mean whatever people want it to mean. But as it is a work by Craig Keener, I would expect that the book would be well written.

Actually we can, for why contend if someone is firm in their belief and you have shown what you believe and why and still it remains the same, after that I believe the Word says to let them go and not contend.

Bill,I agree completely.

 

[Biblicist]

Mar 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Joh 4:54 This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.
Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 10:41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
Joh 12:18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? For that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Act 4:22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.

Why would you doubt the credibility of the Bible?
Resource Grace Bible Collage.

You had me a bit confused for awhile where I had to figure out why you were suggesting that I was in someway "doubting the credibility of the Bible". Then the penny dropped where I realised that you may have mistook my remark that our English word 'miracle', which is not found in any Greek text is in fact a misleading word which can often confuse any discussion that addresses the two Biblical congregational Offices of healings and deeds of power.

 

[Hebrews 11]

You had me a bit confused for awhile where I had to figure out why you were suggesting that I was in someway "doubting the credibility of the Bible". Then the penny dropped where I realised that you may have mistook my remark that our English word 'miracle', which is not found in any Greek text is in fact a misleading word which can often confuse any discussion that addresses the two Biblical congregational Offices of healings and deeds of power.

Simple misunderstanding, I have read your work before and have the utmost respect for you sir.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've read some of the accounts of miracles at Lourdes and at Fatima and they appear credible considering how well documented the meidcal cures are.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, miracles do happen today whether some choose to believe or not

 

[seekingsolace]

"that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders"

"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

"No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

 

[visionary]

I pray for discernment regarding which spiritual side is behind the miracles, not all miracles or spiritual manifestations are of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, miracles do happen today whether some choose to believe or not

It is surprising what I've heard from Pentecostal folk that I know about Lourdes being demonic. Seems that some believe in miracles but see them as coming both from God and from Satan. What's your thoughts on that?

 

[psalms 91]

I believe that God works every day in the miracle business. Satan will not work against satan but yes he can give temporary healing if it keeps someone from God or makes them comfortable in their sin but I dont believe that that happens very often as satan wants to kill us and take us down with him

 

[Ruth]

Thanks for the recommendations Bill.