For what purpose do denominations build icons and statues

[MennoSota]

No evidence that ANY denomination on the planet teaches that we are to pray to the dead.... or that if we bow or honor anything or anyone, we thus declare them to be the Lord God.

IF you could prove that even ONE person on the entire planet Earth prays TO a DEAD person or persons (and you've not even attempted to do so, you've not even named one - much less prove they pray TO the DEAD), that has nothing to do with any denomination (much less the multiple denominations you claim) do so.

I think you've attempted to spread some horrible gossip here.... with NOTHING to support a word of it. And worse, you are spreading a falsehood that Christians have no after-LIFE but are eternally dead as are non-Christians.






You insist that DENOMINATIONS do this and that a multiple number of them TEACH people to do this, especially, to regard some things as the Lord God and to pray TO those who are DEAD but in heaven.

Thing is.... you can't show one denomination on the entire Earth doing what you claim, not even one denomination teaching what you insist a bunch of them do. We're waiting for the statement in the Catechism of at least two stating, "You are to pray TO those who are DEAD." "You are to regard certain inanimate objects as The Lord God." Maybe, if you cared, you could find some Baptist who commits adultery - but that would have NOTHING to do with several Baptist denominations therefore teaching "You are to commit adultery." There MIGHT be one person among the 2.2 billion Christians who prays to the dead (all of whom are in hell) as God and looking to some DEAD entity in hell to answer it - but that would hardly substantiate anything you've posted here, and you haven't even attempted to prove that.

IMO, what you are doing is spreading gossip.... which is a sin. We all know this kind of trash gets spread around the 'net, in all directions. Spreading it - in the worse possible and most sweeping way - is just spreading careless gossip. And revealing that you simply haven't thought it through or checked it out. And you dismissal of attempts to help you think it through just show you don't want to. Ecumenical discussions are hard enough without the insistent, blatant and careless spreading of gossip.





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You have an amazing way of arguing a point no one makes, yet you argue it anyway. It is pointless to respond to your red herring. So...I put you on ignore...again.

 

[tango]

It is interesting to see just how bad the idol worship was right in the Temple area in Jerusalem. The sanctuary of God had been turned into a place to worship other gods. Yet we have church denominations today who encourage paganism in their buildings.
2 Kings 23:4-14
[4]Then the king instructed Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second rank and the Temple gatekeepers to remove from the lord’s Temple all the articles that were used to worship Baal, Asherah, and all the powers of the heavens. The king had all these things burned outside Jerusalem on the terraces of the Kidron Valley, and he carried the ashes away to Bethel.
[5]He did away with the idolatrous priests, who had been appointed by the previous kings of Judah, for they had offered sacrifices at the pagan shrines throughout Judah and even in the vicinity of Jerusalem. They had also offered sacrifices to Baal, and to the sun, the moon, the constellations, and to all the powers of the heavens.
[6]The king removed the Asherah pole from the lord’s Temple and took it outside Jerusalem to the Kidron Valley, where he burned it. Then he ground the ashes of the pole to dust and threw the dust over the graves of the people.
[7]He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the lord, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole.
[8]Josiah brought to Jerusalem all the priests who were living in other towns of Judah. He also defiled the pagan shrines, where they had offered sacrifices—all the way from Geba to Beersheba. He destroyed the shrines at the entrance to the gate of Joshua, the governor of Jerusalem. This gate was located to the left of the city gate as one enters the city.
[9]The priests who had served at the pagan shrines were not allowed to serve at the lord’s altar in Jerusalem, but they were allowed to eat unleavened bread with the other priests.
[10]Then the king defiled the altar of Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, so no one could ever again use it to sacrifice a son or daughter in the fire as an offering to Molech.
[11]He removed from the entrance of the lord’s Temple the horse statues that the former kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were near the quarters of Nathan-melech the eunuch, an officer of the court. The king also burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.
[12]Josiah tore down the altars that the kings of Judah had built on the palace roof above the upper room of Ahaz. The king destroyed the altars that Manasseh had built in the two courtyards of the lord’s Temple. He smashed them to bits and scattered the pieces in the Kidron Valley.
[13]The king also desecrated the pagan shrines east of Jerusalem, to the south of the Mount of Corruption, where King Solomon of Israel had built shrines for Ashtoreth, the detestable goddess of the Sidonians; and for Chemosh, the detestable god of the Moabites; and for Molech, the vile god of the Ammonites.
[14]He smashed the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah poles. Then he desecrated these places by scattering human bones over them.

Except you're not differentiating between use of the graven image as the Israelites did in the desert under Moses, and use of the graven image as they did before King Hezekiah broke it into pieces. Same graven image, different treatment of it. The snake wasn't bad - the problem was when it ceased to be used in the way God intended.

Your text here is about smashing temples and shrines to other gods, it doesn't really apply to what is essentially a piece of artwork within a church to Yahweh.

 

[MennoSota]

Except you're not differentiating between use of the graven image as the Israelites did in the desert under Moses, and use of the graven image as they did before King Hezekiah broke it into pieces. Same graven image, different treatment of it. The snake wasn't bad - the problem was when it ceased to be used in the way God intended.

Your text here is about smashing temples and shrines to other gods, it doesn't really apply to what is essentially a piece of artwork within a church to Yahweh.

You and Josiah are attempting to argue that icons and statues in the church are just art work. But, artwork is not bowed down to and prayed to.

I'm sure the idols and relics found in the temple of Jehovah were excused and ignored for years until people had desensitized themselves to the idol worship taking place in the Temple. My question revolves around why Christian denominations have openly supported such idol worship in their buildings.

 

[Albion]

[MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION]
No one does. See post 25 above.

Yes, praying to the dead is exactly what is done. An artful way of describing those who have passed on as not having died does not change the fact that these prayers ask something of saints. And consider this--people who have died and are being prayed to are merely presumed by the petitioner to be in heaven. It could be that, aside from the rightness or wrongness of praying to them, they either are not in heaven or are incapable of hearing those prayers in any case. (!)

I don't know that verse.

I've agreed there is no verse that expressly states that they DO pray for us or that we must request their prayers.... but that doesn't prove the opposite to be the case.

My friend, I hate to say it, but I am frankly surprised to have a confessional Lutheran defend the POV which amounts to "anything goes so long as it is not explicitly prohibited" in the case of something as important as prayer. Besides, we are not without Scriptural admonitions teaching that God is a jealous god and, consequently, that it is wrong to treat any other being as we treat our God. And then too, I have already cited Jesus' own example and his instructions about how to pray. So it is not correct to say that the Bible is silent on this point anyway.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, praying to the dead is exactly what is done. An artful way of describing those who have passed on as not having died does not change the fact that these prayers ask something of saints. And consider this--people who have died and are being prayed to are merely presumed by the petitioner to be in heaven. It could be that, aside from the rightness or wrongness of praying to them, they either are not in heaven or are incapable of hearing those prayers in any case. (!)

Again, there is no denomination on the planet that teaches that we are to pray to the dead. Which is why MennoSota can't quote even one stating that. It's a lie. It's just a horrible bit of gossip that has been spinning for years.

And he basis it on a heresy: that those who die in faith just die - like a rat or a cockroach - because there is no after-LIFE for believers, just eternal death in hell. His whole point - that there is no after-LIFE only eternal death in hell - is a foundation we should reject.



It is NOWHERE forbidden to speak with the LIVING in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36 Jesus was speaking with Moses. Moses was died and buried (see Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ) but was a believer and thus in heaven. He has after-LIFE. Now, friend, it seems to me you have a choice: Either Jesus horribly sinned by speaking with the "dead" (actually, the truly LIVING) or it's okay to address those in the after-LIFE? Which is it?

My friend, I hate to say it, but I am frankly surprised to have a confessional Lutheran defend the POV which amounts to "anything goes so long as it is not explicitly prohibited" in the case of something as important as prayer.

I'm rejecting the premises here:

1. There is no after-LIFE for believers, but all believers just die like rats and are in hell - same as unbelievers. No, I believe Jesus was right when He said that for believers, "you shall LIVE even through you die."

2. That it is forbidden and a sin to speak to those in heaven. This is the whole premise of this thread. There is no verse that say that..... and it means that Jesus is a sinner and thus cannot be the Savior.

3. That if one bows before a teacher, sensei, judge, queen, president - this makes them the Lord God. He put up an picture of people praying, with a statue in the background, insisting they THEREBY were declaring the cement to be God. I think that is silly. I am NOT declaring a piece of cloth to be God when I stand for the pledge of allegience.

4. That there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." There's a reason he can't seem to find even one that actually does....




[MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION]


Do you actually hold (agreeing with the Opening poster) that there is no after-LIFE for believers, that those in heaven are just eternally dead just like those in hell, just like rats - that Jesus was wrong when He promise, "you shall live even through you die?f

Do you actually hold that Jesus sinned by speaking with Moses who had died and been buried (Deuteronomy 34:1-8) since obviously Moses - as a believer - was thus alive on not died? That it is wrong for us to approach Jesus because he died and was buried - but as the first fruit of ALL believers - rose to LIFE just as all believers in Him?

Do you actually hold that if you stand in a courtroom when a judge enters, you are declaring the judge to be God?



See post # 25.



- Josiah




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[NewCreation435]

Friend, I think it was Jesus who said that while they die, yet shall they live. I don't believe that when Christians die, it's like when an rat or cockroach dies. I believe that when Christians die, they are made alive in Christ and they are in heaven. I don't think DEAD are in heaven, I think alive are in heaven. Do you disagree?





No. Although friend, you are changing the subject. The issue of this thread is that if we ask someone to pray to them, if we bow before a person or image, if we kneel - are we thereby stating such is the God.


Friend, if you ask all those at CH to pray for you or a loved one, does that mandate that you believe having God hear the prayer is a mathematical factor of how many God counts as praying? I doubt. The Bible itself encourages us to pray for one another, it doens't set a limit on how many can be or should be asked. I'll bet there are times when most of the people of the world are praying for something (for example for peace during WW 2), does that mean God therefore won't answer it? The US Congress has often asked all Americans to pray for something, is that wrong? Does that mean God won't answer it, because too many were asked to pray? See my point?






Yes. Does that mean you never pray? Was Jesus wrong to pray? Was Jesus wrong to tell us to pray and to give us the Lord's Prayer? Is Scripture wrong to tell us to pray for one another?







I disagree. We ARE to pray.... but I disagree that the Bible indicates that God won't hear us unless X percentage of humans request it. Nonetheless, we are told to pray for each other.... Jesus prayed. Jesus taught all of us to pray.


Now, where does Scripture indicate that if we stand for the National Anthem or bow to the Queen or Sensai, or stand when a judge or the president enters the room (or even a lady)..... that means ERGO that person is the God? That's what we are discussing. This thread is not, "It is a sound practice to request our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for us?" That's a whole other enchilada. This is about knelling or bowing before a statue or person ergo mandates the object of such is God.








Dead people are in hell. NO ONE known to me has EVER suggested that we request those in hell to pray to God for us.

Those in heaven are alive..... and with Jesus. Or so the Bible claims, anyway.

Now, friend, if you agree with MennoSota that Christians are also in hell, that the Bible is wrong about life after death, then I see your point. But we disagree on something MUCH bigger than whether a karate student bowing before his sensai means the teacher is God or a person bowing before the Cross means they told that a piece of wood is God.




Now, where does Scripture indicate that if we stand for the National Anthem or bow to the Queen or Sensai, or stand when a judge or the president enters the room (or even a lady)..... that means ERGO that person is the God? That's what we are discussing. This thread is not, "It is a sound practice to request our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for us?" That's a whole other enchilada. This is about knelling or bowing before a statue or person ergo mandates the object of such is God.



Thank you.



Josiah



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No, I don't disagree. The issue is whether or not you should be praying to those who have passed away. No doubt that those who are in heaven are alive. The issue is that nowhere in the Bible are we told to communicate with them or pray to them. Our intercessor is Jesus and the one who helps us pray is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

Again, there is no denomination on the planet that teaches that we are to pray to the dead.

No offense intended, but I'm not interested in the coy argument that tries to say that the word dead is not universally understood to refer to the cessation of physical life when your heart stops beating, your brain waves go flat, and they begin preparing you for burial! At least three times now I have avoided calling this spade a spade simply in order to have this exchange continue to be cordial, and I have gone so far as to use the term passed on or passed away in order to be clearer than clear, but if I have to say it...there it is.

No, when you die, we Christians do not believe that you cease to exist. But that fact is not an invitation to pray to the dead and ask them to intercede with God on the presumption that he is more willing to hear from them than from us, the living. That's all a terrible wrong and completely unscriptural..

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

You and Josiah are attempting to argue that icons and statues in the church are just art work. But, artwork is not bowed down to and prayed to.

You've not shown they are praying TO the piece of art or that they have made the statue the Lord God.... You continue your SILLY argument that if one bows to someone or something, ergo that act makes the object the Lord God. It's just silly. Go into a courtroom and see what happens when the judge enters. Walk into a karate classroom and watch what happens when the sensai enters. Walk into a nice restaurant and see what a gentleman does when his lady enters the room. No, when I stand for the National Anthem (as I do when the Gospel Reading is read in church), I am NOT declaring a piece of cloth to be The Lord God. Your whole bit is just silly.... THINK! And you didn't say that you can find some among the 7.5 billion people on the planet who do wrong, you insisted that there is 2 or more denominations that dogmatically TEACH that we are to "pray TO the DEAD." But you can't seem to find even one denomination that teaches that anywhere. Again, if I could find a Baptist who murdered someone, does that mean ergo all Baptist denominations dogmatically TEACH people to kill? Friend, you need to THINK before you spread silly, obviously wrong gossip.


Again, there is no denomination on the planet that teaches that we are to pray to the dead. Which is why you can't quote even one stating that. You haven't even TRIED to support your horrible flame to unnamed denominations because you can't (and I suspect you know it). It's a lie. It's just a horrible bit of gossip you are spreading without given one seconds thought about it or checking it out to see if it is true or even care if it's true. Friend, spreading gossip IS a sin. Showing respect for people isn't.


And here's what is worse: You base all this on a heresy: that those who die in faith just die - like a rat or a cockroach - because there is no after-LIFE for believers, just eternal death in hell. His whole point - that there is no after-LIFE only eternal death in hell - is a foundation we should reject. You hold that when Christians die, they become demons (so Billy Graham is now a demon) and thus we shouldn't address them. Your premise is a heresy and a flat-out denial of what Jesus promised and what the Bible teaches.


It is NOWHERE forbidden to speak with the LIVING in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36 Jesus was speaking with Moses. Moses was died and buried (see Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ) but was a believer and thus alive in heaven. He has after-LIFE. Now, friend, it seems to me you have a choice: Either Jesus horribly sinned by speaking with the "dead" or it's okay to address those in the after-LIFE? Either your premise is wrong or Jesus was wrong. Which is it? WHICH IS IT ???? You continue to evade this because.... well....



A blessed Lenten season to all....



- Josiah





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[tango]

You and Josiah are attempting to argue that icons and statues in the church are just art work. But, artwork is not bowed down to and prayed to.

(image cut for brevity)

I'm sure the idols and relics found in the temple of Jehovah were excused and ignored for years until people had desensitized themselves to the idol worship taking place in the Temple. My question revolves around why Christian denominations have openly supported such idol worship in their buildings.

I'm pointing out the difference between reverence and worship. The difference between the Israelites beholding the bronze snake that Moses lifted up, and the Israelites worshiping the bronze snake in later years. The bronze snake wasn't the problem, the problem was when people worshiped it - if the snake had been the problem all along then Moses shouldn't have been lifting it up in the first place.

In theory one could bow down and worship just about anything but we don't use that as a reason for prohibiting anything that somebody might worship. Worshiping something that is not God is a bad thing to do, but it doesn't make the object of worship an inherently bad thing. Theoretically speaking you could come to my house and worship my television, and if that were to happen the problem would be that you were worshiping the wrong thing - it would be absurd to insist that the television be removed and destroyed because you were worshiping it.

What are the people in your picture actually doing? Are they praying to God in front of a statue, or are they praying to the statue? I don't know what's in their hearts so the picture in and of itself proves little. Sometimes I kneel at my computer desk - I'm not praying to my computer and I'm certainly not worshiping my computer, it's just that maybe I've got a load of paperwork or something on my desk chair and don't feel like moving it. Sometimes I kneel at my bedside as I read on my tablet. I'm not worshiping the bed, nor am I worshiping the tablet (nor am I praying to either), I'm just choosing a comfortable position to read. If you took a picture of me kneeling before my tablet and posted it on the internet maybe you could convince people that tablets were evil because this guy shown here (me) is clearly worshiping his.

 

[Josiah]

No, when you die, we Christians do not believe that you cease to exist. But that fact is not an invitation to pray to the dead and ask them to intercede with God on the presumption that he is more willing to hear from them than from us, the living. That's all a terrible wrong and completely unscriptural..

I never said that when Christians die, they don't die. I disagree that's the end of the story, Christianity being wrong. I'm rejecting the premise of this thread (that you said you agree with) that those who die in the Lord are just eternally DIED (like those in hell) - indeed, worse, they become demons and devils. I believe Jesus when He promised that those who die in faith shall LIVE... that there is an after-LIFE for Christians.... that Jesus rose as the first-fruits of ALL who believe in Him (thus as He is alive, so are those who die in Him). Thus, it is wrong IMO (heresy in fact) to insist that Christians become demons and devils, and ergo it is wrong to address them. I hold that Jesus did NOT sin when He addressed Moses who had physically died but as a believer.


I never said there is any mandate that we include the truly LIVING in heaven in our requests to pray to God with us..... I am rejecting that Scripture states this is "expressly forbidden" (but the verse can't be found), and more so, the reason for concluding this: that there is no after-LIFE for Christians, only eternal death as demons and devils. I already said (thrice now) that I don't do this and I don't find the practice sound.... I'm simply disagreeing with ALL of the (many) premises MennoSota has made here: chiefly that those who die in the Lord just die..... like a rat..... worse, they become demons and devils and thus the prohibition to speak to demons and the dead applies (because there is no after-LIFE, Jesus was wrong in His promises) - which of course makes Jesus a sinner in Luke 9:28-36 because Jesus did exactly that. I'm not defending the practice, I'm disagreeing with SILLY accusations and out-right heresy. And still waiting for that list of at least 2 denominations that "dogmatically teach that we are to pray TO the DEAD." It's a lie.... it's horrible gossip.


Friend, if we cannot speak with one whose heart stopped (as you insist) because that's a sin, then Jesus sinned in Luke 9:28-36.



- Josiah




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[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

No, I don't disagree. The issue is whether or not you should be praying to those who have passed away.

Respectfully friend, no, it is not.


The issues are...

1. If one respects a person or bows to someone or something, by that action, that person or object becomes the Lord God. That when the Brits bow to the Queen, they make her an Idol and God. I disagree. Tango has written effectively on this but MennoSota has defended his pov.

2. That when Christians die, they are just eternally died (just as those in hell) - there is no after LIFE. Indeed, that those who physically died are now demons and devils - thus the prohibition to speak with demons applies. Of course, this makes Jesus wrong in His promises and makes Jesus a sinner in Luke 9:28-36.

3. Four times now, I have stated I don't do this and don't defend the practice. Tango has posted (repeatedly) the same thing. That's not the issue. The issues are the two premises here: Those in heaven are just eternally DEAD (indeed, demons) which means Jesus was wrong in His promises, and that it is expressly forbidden to address them which means Jesus is a sinner because He did exactly that.

4. The statement that there are at least 2 denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." I think that's a lie. And the reality that MennoSota has not even attempted to defend his accusations conveys to me maybe he knows it's a lie. As I posted, we have enough trouble in these ecumenical discussions without people knowingly lying. Do you disagree?

The issue is that nowhere in the Bible are we told to communicate with them.

... although Jesus did. Did He sin?


I agree with you. I just don't agree that what we find (or don't find) in the examples of things illustrated in the Bible is the norma normans.... if it was, we couldn't be posting on the internet, could we? I reject the premise that just because we don't see something expressly illustrated in the Bible, it is thus forbidden and sinful to do it. Frankly, I hear that rubric all the time - often by people posting it on the internet, folks where probably 90% of what they do on a Sunday morning in church is nowhere illustrated in the Bible. TYPICALLY, people are apt to say that if JESUS did something, it must be okay - yet Jesus communicated with one who was dead and buried but some will dogmatically insist it is wrong to do that because it's no where illustrated as being done in the Bible.


Thank you.


- Josiah



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[Confessional Lutheran]

I'm sorry for intruding, but these are Dr. Martin Luther's words on the Invocation of the saints by way of the Smalcald Articles:

Of the Invocation of Saints.

25] The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints].
26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. 27] For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. 28] If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor].
29] In short, the Mass itself and anything that proceeds from it, and anything that is attached to it, we cannot tolerate, but must condemn, in order that we may retain the holy Sacrament pure and certain, according to the institution of Christ, employed and received through faith. http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#invocationofsaints

God bless you, but the Most Holy Trinity in Heaven is the only One to be prayed to.

 

[Albion]

I never said that when Christians die, they don't die. I disagree that's the end of the story, Christianity being wrong. I'm rejecting the premise of this thread (that you said you agree with) that those who die in the Lord are just eternally DIED (like those in hell) .

I have the feeling that now you are attempting to make the rest of us be in agreement with everything that MennoSota has written when, in reality, we have taken issue with a single point that you affirmed--that praying to the saints is proper.

 

[Josiah]

I'm sorry for intruding, but these are Dr. Martin Luther's words on the Invocation of the saints by way of the Smalcald Articles:

Of the Invocation of Saints.

25] The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints].
26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. 27] For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. 28] If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor].
29] In short, the Mass itself and anything that proceeds from it, and anything that is attached to it, we cannot tolerate, but must condemn, in order that we may retain the holy Sacrament pure and certain, according to the institution of Christ, employed and received through faith. http://www.bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#invocationofsaints

God bless you, but the Most Holy Trinity in Heaven is the only One to be prayed to.

All good. But the issues here are:

1. The respect of persons and/or the bowing at a person or object thus makes that an Idol and God. Nowhere does Luther or Lutherans agree with that. There's a statue of Martin Luther on the campus of both LCMS seminaries; Lutherans do NOT regard that thus both are Idols and God. We bow before the altar as we approach for Communion and as we leave, but we do NOT teach that ERGO we make the altar an Idol and regard that piece of wood as God. We honor and respect the saints but we do NOT hold that by doing so, we make them Idols and God.

2. The Lutheran Confessions do NOT teach (as the premise of this thread does) that there is no after LIFE for Christians, that when Christians die - but are just eternally died (just as those in hell), so that Jesus was wrong when He promised, "even though you die, yet shall you LIVE" and "Jesus rose as the first fruits of all who die in the Lord."

3. The Lutheran Confessions do NOT teach that Jesus sinned when He spoke with one who had died ( Luke 9:28-36)

4. The Lutheran Confessions discourage the practice.... which I do too. Tango and I have REPEATEDLY said neither of us do this or support it. But the issue is NOT whether this is a sound practice, the issue is whether Christians in heaven are DEAD (indeed demons and devils) just as those in hell - and thus the OT prohibition to speak to dead demons applies, and whether Jesus sinned when He spoke with one who had died. Plus the issue here that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." And the insistence that we if bow to someone or something or otherwise show respect, we make them an IDOL and declare such to be GOD.

5. Lutherans do honor the saints. The Lutheran liturgical calendar includes over 20 Saint Feast Days. We have a day on the calendar expressly to honor Mary. The issue the SA is addressing, is abusing that by claiming things about those in heaven that simply isn't true, or looking to them to do what they cannot do. Lutheranism decries praying TO the saints as unto God - but then so does the Catholic Church; the SA is decrying what some Christians did not what the RCC "dogmatically taught." When I was a Catholic, I was taught - repeatedly - that praying TO a saint is a sin (that's the exact word they used) and that no saint (including Our Lady) actually answers prayer (they usually noted the Miracle at Cana - noting that Mary ASKS Jesus and that Jesus ALONE could do what happened). The SA is addressing an ABUSE found at times then in the church, NOT in any way supporting the claims of the opening poster and this thread. I invite you to read the posts of Tango and myself here.

 

[Josiah]

I have the feeling that now you are attempting to make the rest of us be in agreement with everything that MennoSota has written

I thought you posted that you agree with MennoSota....

we have taken issue with a single point that you affirmed--that praying to the saints is proper.

Except that both Tango and I have posted - over and over again (this is at least # 5 for me) that we don't. NO ONE HERE has remotely said it's a good practice; I've repeatedly stated I think it is not. How can that firm, often repeated statement be seen as indicating I defend and support it?????


The issues are...


1. If one respects a person or bows to someone or something, by that action, that person or object becomes the Lord God. That when the Brits bow to the Queen, they make her an Idol and God. I disagree. Tango has written effectively on this but MennoSota has defended his pov. I disagree with the premise of this thread. I don't think a gentleman standing when his lady enters is thus sinning and making her an Idol and his God. See what Tango and I have written on this. MennoSota has remained steadfast in his pov.


2. That when Christians die, they are just eternally died (just as those in hell) - there is no after LIFE. Indeed, that those who physically die are now demons and devils - thus the prohibition to speak with demons applies to Christians. Of course, this makes Jesus wrong in His promises and makes Jesus a sinner in Luke 9:28-36. I've been defending what Jesus promised and what Jesus did. I do NOT hold that Jesus was wrong in all his promises that Christians LIVE in heaven. I do NOT hold that Jesus sinned when he communicated with one who had died.


3. At least five times now, I have stated I don't do this and don't defend the practice. Tango has posted (repeatedly) the same thing. That's not the issue. What I've been rejecting is: Those in heaven are just eternally DEAD (indeed, demons) which means Jesus was wrong in His promises, and that it is expressly forbidden to address them which means Jesus is a sinner because He did exactly that. I think you posted that MennoSota was right and that you disagree with me.


4. The statement that there are at least 2 denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." I think that's a lie. And the reality that MennoSota has not even attempted to defend his accusations conveys to me maybe he knows it's a lie. As I posted, we have enough trouble in these ecumenical discussions without people knowingly lying. Do you disagree?


Friend, you know I don't jump to blindly defend the RCC; where it is wrong I'm not hesitant to state so. While the opening poster knows better than to pin this on a denomination (he has wisely REFUSE to state what denominations do what he so boldly accuses because then he'd need to show where they do what he INSISTS at least 2 denominations do), I know this is a flame that is often parroted on the 'net. I do NOT deny that there are Christians who do wrong here (Luther condemned them in his time - and so do I), that does NOT mean that ERGO the RCC (and at least one other denomination) "dogmatically teaches" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." It just means there are some who are doing what they shouldn't. As I pointed out to MennoSota (but he has evaded it), IF I found two baptists murderers, does that mean that ERGO there's 2 or more Baptist denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to "Murder folks?" It's just so silly. But worse is his bold point that those in heaven are just DEAD, just like those in hell - indeed, he has indicated they are demons and that's why the prohibition against speaking to demons applies to Christians in Heaven. And his repeated point (also made by others) that it is expressly forbidden in Scripture (and thus a sin) to communicate with those who have died and are now living in heaven - I note no one seems able to find that verse and that that makes Jesus a sinner ( Luke 9:28-36 )


I don't care a whole lot if people request loved ones in heaven to pray to God for them.... I don't, but I don't see that as sinful. I find no reason to believe that when Christians become alive in Heaven LIVING with Jesus, they thus have LESS faith and LESS love than when they were less alive here on Earth. I don't do it, I don't support it, but I don't decry it as a horrible sin. But the issues I've addressed are the issues of this thread: That Jesus was wrong about Christians having LIFE after death .... and that Jesus sinned by communicating with one who had died. I'm defending the Gospel and the promises of Jesus.... and I'm defending that Jesus was sinless and not horribly sinful. And, with Tango, pointing out the silliness of this thread that respecting = making an Idol and declaring such to be The Lord God. Like Tango, I do NOT practice this (indeed, I discourage it) but NOT for the reasons of this thread: That Jesus was wrong about His promises of LIFE after death and that Jesus sinned by communicating with one who had died and that if we ask a loved one to pray to God for us, we make that person an Idol and God. I don't support the practice, but I do reject the reasons given here.



Follow me?



- Josiah




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[Albion]

I thought you posted that you agree with MennoSota....

So I was right when I said:

I have the feeling that now you are attempting to make the rest of us be in agreement with everything that MennoSota has written when, in reality, we have taken issue with a single point that you affirmed--that praying to the saints is proper.

You wrote: "Except that both Tango and I have posted - over and over again (this is at least # 5 for me) that we don't. NO ONE HERE has remotely said it's a good practice; I've repeatedly stated I think it is not. How can that firm, often repeated statement be seen as indicating I defend and support it? "

But you also wrote this:

"It is NOWHERE forbidden to speak with the LIVING in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36 Jesus was speaking with Moses. Moses was died and buried (see Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ) but was a believer and thus in heaven. He has after-LIFE. Now, friend, it seems to me you have a choice: Either Jesus horribly sinned by speaking with the "dead" (actually, the truly LIVING) or it's okay to address those in the after-LIFE?
"

Of course I do not believe that Jesus did wrong, therefore I am left with the other alternative--it's okay to "address" those in the afterlife. That doesn't sound like a rejection of the practice.



.

 

[Josiah]

So I was right when I said:

Did you read post 55?


And you are wrong when you AGAIN post, "you affirm that praying to the saints is proper." Friend, it seems impossible that you've read what I posted (repeatedly) and yet state that. Please read at least # 55.

You wrote: "Except that both Tango and I have posted - over and over again (this is at least # 5 for me) that we don't. NO ONE HERE has remotely said it's a good practice; I've repeatedly stated I think it is not. How can that firm, often repeated statement be seen as indicating I defend and support it? " But you also wrote this: "It is NOWHERE forbidden to speak with the LIVING in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36 Jesus was speaking with Moses. Moses was died and buried (see Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ) but was a believer and thus in heaven. He has after-LIFE. Now, friend, it seems to me you have a choice: Either Jesus horribly sinned by speaking with the "dead" (actually, the truly LIVING) or it's okay to address those in the after-LIFE?

I disagree that the practice is expressly forbidden - as several here have stated. I asked for the verse where this is stated and none could quote it. Of course, obviously, just because something isn't expressly forbidden is not the same thing as saying it is promoted, encouraged and dogmaticly taught by at least two denominations and by me personally. To the point: It was stated it is forbidden because when Christians die, there is no after life in heaven, they are just eternally DIED (indeed, become demons thus the prohibition against addressing the DEAD and DEMONS applies fully to Christians in heaven). What you quoted from me says I DISAGREE with the point presented, the reasons given. I NOWHERE endorsed the practice as you claim I did. I stated (no less than 5 times) that I do NOT support it. Come on.


It was also stated that communicating with believers whose heart stopped at some point is expressly forbidden in Scripture and is a sin. Again, I asked for the verse but none was offered. I noted that Jesus did exactly that so either the statement is wrong or Jesus sinned (I see no other option) and asked, which is it? But all chose to ignore that. Again, noting that Jesus did something (there's nothing suggesting that he requested Moses to pray for Him, btw) doesn't mean the practice of requesting loved ones in heaven to pray to God for us ergo is encouraged.... but it does mean the reason given (it is an expressed sin to communicate with believers enjoying the after LIFE) is false. Come on, friend. Clearly, obviously, unquestionably, I'm rejecting the claims and statements made here - I NOWHERE promoted the practice; like Tango I repeatedly stated I do NOT practice this and I discourage it. You know the difference.


Not for you sake (you don't need it) but for MennoSotas, if I reject the statement that eating a gallon of ice cream after every meal is a sin because it makes your hair fall out is NOT the same thing as endorsing and promoting eating a gallon of ice cream after every meal. What is being promoted in this thread is that Jesus erred in His promises and Jesus sinned in His life (as well as a number of other equally wrong but just silly and absurd things).




A blessed lenten season to all...


- Josiah




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[Albion]

As I feared, I was editing my post above while someone else (you in this case) was responding to the unedited version. So I must also ask you to take a look at post #56 for my amended response (after re-reading a number of the posts that had gone before). I apologize, and I hate it when this happens, but sometimes it does.

 

[tango]

But you also wrote this:

"It is NOWHERE forbidden to speak with the LIVING in heaven. See Luke 9:28-36 Jesus was speaking with Moses. Moses was died and buried (see Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ) but was a believer and thus in heaven. He has after-LIFE. Now, friend, it seems to me you have a choice: Either Jesus horribly sinned by speaking with the "dead" (actually, the truly LIVING) or it's okay to address those in the after-LIFE?
"

Of course I do not believe that Jesus did wrong, therefore I am left with the other alternative--it's okay to "address" those in the afterlife. That doesn't sound like a rejection of the practice.

I'm not seeing any distinction between praying to someone, and asking someone to pray for you, in what I'm reading here.

If I pray to you, as if you were God, then there's a problem.
If I ask you to pray for me then I'm merely asking you to join with me in praying to God, in which case there isn't a problem.

To "address" someone could be either, so to argue that "addressing" any given individual is sinful is to assume something that just isn't there.

 

[Josiah]

As I feared, I was editing my post above while someone else (you in this case) was responding to the unedited version. So I must also ask you to take a look at post #56 for my amended response (after re-reading a number of the posts that had gone before). I apologize, and I hate it when this happens, but sometimes it does.

Read post 57

I'm not seeing any distinction between praying to someone, and asking someone to pray for you, in what I'm reading here.

If I pray to you, as if you were God, then there's a problem.
If I ask you to pray for me then I'm merely asking you to join with me in praying to God, in which case there isn't a problem.

Correct.


1. Among the MANY bold, sweeping accusations here is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." Of course, nothing has been offered to substantiate this. There is at least one denomination known to me that permits Christians to request those living in heaven to pray to God for them, but that's a whole other enchilada. Yes, I don't deny there are probably individuals doing wrong but that doesn't mean the denomination teaches them to do so. If I can find a Baptist who murdered his wife, that does not mean that ergo all Baptist denominations dogmatically teach that all are to murder their lives. A lot of silliness in this thread.

2. There have been give two reasons why it is forbidden to request loved ones in heaven to pray to God with us..... A) Christians in heaven are just DEAD, there being no after LIFE, indeed they become demons and devils so that the prohibition from speaking with DEAD DEMONS applies to Christians in heaven. B) It is expressly stated as sin to communicate with the living in heaven. I simply reject the two reasons: The first makes Jesus a liar, the second makes Jesus a sinner.


- Josiah




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