For what purpose do denominations build icons and statues

[ImaginaryDay2]

1. Some Christians believe in LIFE after death for the justified, others that there is no life after death, that when a Christian dies, he is just DEAD. Perhaps you belong in the second group.

2. Asking another to pray for you is not regarding them as God nor worshiping them as such. I think you have things VERY confused.

3. No. If I expect my bunny to do something, I'm not THEREBY declaring my bunny to be God. I think you have things REALLY confused.

Then help un-confuse things

 

[Josiah]

Me, too. Christ is our only mediator and advocate.

Then the Bible is wrong to tell us to pray for each other? Only Jesus can pray for us?

Do you therefore condemn Confessional Lutheran who just put up a thread asking all to pray for his grandmother because only Jesus is permitted to pray?

Does your church disallow any humans to pray? Does it exclude all Collects and prayers, including the Lord's Prayer?

the only verse that supports the idea of us asking another to pray on our behalf refers to a neighbor, someone like ourselves, not someone who has suffered physical death and gone onto the next life.

This thread isn't a discussion of the value of asking the Living in Heaven to pray with us...... But to your point, I can find something in Scripture that says we CANNOT do this. We wouldn't be able to ask Jesus to pray for us if that were the case. I know of no verse that says we can't ask the living in heaven to pray. It may or may not be a sound practice, but I can't find any verse that says it's forbidden. And especially not one that says if we ask someone to pray, we are therefore declaring them to be God.

And that neighbor would be doing exactly what you yourself would be doing--asking the Father.

IF my Grandfather is praying for me (and I suspect he can.... and is.....) he would be doing as he always did - praying to the Father. Why would his faith in God and his love for me change because he is in heaven? Do people believe less or love less in heaven?

 

[Josiah]

Then help un-confuse things

I have. LOL. See post 3 and 11. See Tango's post # 9.



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[Albion]

Then the Bible is wrong to tell us to pray for each other? Only Jesus can pray for us?

I explained this in my post above. We are to pray for each other. We are not instructed to pray to the dead and definitely not to ask them to intercede with God on our behalf.

Does your church disallow any humans to pray? Does it exclude all Collects and prayers, including the Lord's Prayer?

There are no prayers addressed to saints or angels.

IF my Grandfather is praying for me (and I suspect he can.... and is.....) he would be doing as he always did - praying to the Father. Why would his faith in God and his love for me change because he is in heaven? Do people believe less or love less in heaven?

That's not the same situation. We do not deny that those in heaven can and do pray for the living. The question here is whether there is any scriptural basis for us to be praying to them.

In addition to an absence of a scriptural warrant for us to be praying to those who have passed on, note that Jesus did not pray to any created being and, when asked by his closest followers how they should pray, he answered with Our Father, etc. No mention of alternatives.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=55]ImaginaryDay2[/MENTION]
[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

The veneration of saints is something that baffles me.

See post # 3 which you evaded.

I honor Abraham Lincoln. Even Albert Einstein. What's wrong with honoring people? The Bible says that all generations will honor Mary, is it wrong to suggest we should?

Churches will spend a lot of money to create an image or statue of some person they think has a mystical connection to God.

Yes, some churches spend money on art. I don't think that's wrong. God designed the Temple and it was pretty fancy. But yes, you can hold that churches should be concrete boxes void of any color or design, void of any thing pretty. Your choice. Isn't necessarily cheaper however.


Theologically, I suggest you discuss this with [MENTION=33]George[/MENTION]. It is ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY in the Eastern Orthodox tradition that there a concept some "mystical connection" as you put it with an icon. I don't think it's true in anything remotely the way you think, but there is a tradition in the East. But he's the only one here who is EO and only he could address that. It's uniquely an aspect of the spirituality of Eastern Christianity.


Yes, when I see a picture of my wife or son.... I think of them, and I guess there is some emotional connection. But I'm not sure why you think that's SO horrible and wrong, much less why my smiling at a picture of my son means that ergo I'm declaring him to be the God. My church has a Cross on the wall (kinda big, pretty dominate)... and yes, makes me think of what Jesus did for us, so yes, I guess some kind of a "connection." Does your church disallow crosses? Photos? Anything that might remind anyone of anything.... and thus declare such to be the God? Does your denomination forbid photographs because it might cause someone to think and feel about the one(s) in the photo?

some denominations teach veneration and prayer via dead people

NONE does. No denomination believes that the dead (who are all in hell) venerate anything good or pray at all. Most teach that Jesus was right and that those who died in Christ are made alive, that there is an after-LIFE for all Christians in heaven. Christians believe that in Christ, those in heaven live - just as He promised. Of course, you may deny that.

Just QUOTE the statement from a denomination, "pray to dead people." You claim - over and over - that there are denominations that teach this but you have yet to provide even one word from even one denomination. Most denominations have statements of faith (and often Catechisms). So it's easy, just open the Catechism, quote the paragraph number, and the statement: "Pray to dead people." You claim denominations do this, but where are the quotes?

Why would Christian denominations co-opt an animistic practice of praying to the dead?

Denominations can't pray. Only people can.

No denomination states we should pray to those in hell. Which is why you have yet to quote even one that does (yet you continue to speak of multiple denominations).

I'm not aware of any who thing we should pray TO anyone other than God - whether that one is alive on Earth or even more alive in Heaven - prayer is to be addressed only to God, but we may request others believers to pray to God for us.




Your premise is that when Christians die, they are just eternally died (indeed, become demons) - worse than when a rat dies. Your whole premise is to deny what Jesus said: "You shall live even though you die" to deny that Christians have an after-LIFE. Worse, you suggest Christians become demons and devils when they die (so Billy Graham is now a demon?!). Your whole apologetic is heretical. See Luke 9:28-36 Here Jesus is speaking with Moses who had died and was buried ( Deuteronomy 34:1-8 ). Yet Moses was a believer and thus was among the LIVING in Heaven (not a demon in hell as you insist). So, MennoSota, you have a choice: Either Jesus sinned or your theology is wrong. Which is it?




See Tango's post # 9 (in fact, see all of them, lol)



A blessed lenten season to all.....



- Josiah




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[tango]

I explained this in my post above. We are to pray for each other. We are not instructed to pray to the dead and definitely not to ask them to intercede with God on our behalf.

There is a difference between "we are not instructed to" and "we are instructed not to", which I think is much of the point Josiah is making. We are instructed not to commit adultery, which means we must not do it. We are not instructed to use the internet (but neither are we instructed not to use the internet) which suggests we get to choose for ourselves whether we use the internet.

There are no prayers addressed to saints or angels.

I must admit I am uncomfortable at the thought of praying to deceased saints or praying to angels - I can't help thinking that prayer is more of a "divine petition" than a more secular petition - the difference between asking my wife to make me a cup of coffee and asking God to heal my sick friend. I wouldn't call my request to my wife a "prayer". In the same way one might argue that requesting a deceased family member to pray for us is more akin to asking a living family member to pray for us, rather than praying to the family member.

That's not the same situation. We do not deny that those in heaven can and do pray for the living. The question here is whether there is any scriptural basis for us to be praying to them.

A related question would be whether asking somebody to do something for us is the same as praying to them.

In addition to an absence of a scriptural warrant for us to be praying to those who have passed on, note that Jesus did not pray to any created being and, when asked by his closest followers how they should pray, he answered with Our Father, etc. No mention of alternatives.

I guess you edited the post to add this bit between me reading it and hitting the Reply button.... it showed up and confused me for a while

Here we're still back to the question of whether a request for help still counts as a prayer. Also, if you want to say that Jesus told us how we should pray when he gave us what we now call the Lord's Prayer with no mention of alternatives, at what point does any prayer other than the Lord's Prayer, word-for-word, need to be considered a deviation from the explicit instruction Jesus gave us?

 

[tango]

Incidentally, I can't help thinking of the issue of the bronze serpent that Moses lifted up in the desert, when the Israelites were plagued by snakes. They looked upon the serpent, but they didn't worship it. Later on people did worship it and burn incense to it (if I recall they named it Nehushtan, and King Hezekiah had it broken into pieces).

The first use was perfectly acceptable, the second not so much.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION]

We are not instructed to pray to the dead

No one does. See post 25 above.

It's just that some Christians believe that Christ was right when He said that when we die yet shall we live.... some believe that for the Christian, there is an after-LIFE (not eternal death in hell). I know of no one who requests the dead in hell to pray for them.

I agree that there is no STATED mandate that our praying for each other includes those in heaven. But there's nothing to the contrary. And some believe that those in heaven do not loose their faith or their love, so having faith and love, perhaps still pray? Remember, some believe the Bible is right and these people in Christ are alive... and with Jesus..... in Heaven. I can think of nothing that suggests that when we are alive in heaven, we crease believing, loving, caring, praying... I can't prove those in heaven do, but I can't think of anything that remotely suggests the contrary. See my point?

definitely not to ask them to intercede with God on our behalf

I don't know that verse.

I've agreed there is no verse that expressly states that they DO pray for us or that we must request their prayers.... but that doesn't prove the opposite to be the case.

there are no prayers addressed to saints or angels

1. When Confessional Lutheran asked us to pray for his grandmother, his prayer was not addressed to us - his requests for prayer was.

2. I shy from making EXAMPLES that happen to be recorded (or not) in the Bible as the norma normans. I couldn't be posting on the internet if I accepted that rubric. I couldn't be celebrating Lent. I couldn't baptize babies (that was for MennoSota, lol). I couldn't do 90% of what most Christians do.

3. I agree. I too know of no examples of such being done. I just don't accept that reality as normative. I know of no examples of anyone posting on the 'net in the Bible either.

4 I'm NOT arguing - AT ALL - that the practice is good. Only that it does not make the loved one in heaven the Lord God, and that it is not forbidden. I frankly find it bad stewardship - and never do it - but I don't agree it is forbidden or makes those in heaven God.

We do not deny that those in heaven can and do pray for the living

Then how can you argue that they are DEAD??????? How can you state you agree with MennoSota that Christians are DEAD, just as rats and pigs, just as non-Christians, just as those in hell?

The question here is whether there is any scriptural basis for us to be praying to them.

I would agree that it is wrong to request ANYTHING of ANYONE (on Earth OR in Heaven) as if they are God and they will answer. What difference does it make if they are on Earth or in Heaven? Wouldn't that be wrong either way? Frankly, I don't know what the distinction is whether they are dead (and thus in hell) or alive (and thus on Earth or even more so in Heaven). The ERROR would be to consider any to be God who is not. What does those in heaven have to do with that? Condemn what's wrong.... it has nothing to do with where the one is located. Yes, if one asked Donald Trump to do something only God can do or as if he is God - that's wrong. What difference does it make if it's Billy Graham whom I believe is ALIVE (more than ever!) and in Heaven? Sorry, I don't get your distinction.

But I was taught, in my Catholic years, that it is a sin (that's the word my teachers used), a "sin" to consider that any in Heaven (except Jesus) can answer prayer. Even Mary can only pray FOR us, thus we request her petitions. I'd agree with you (and all my Catholic teachers) it would be wrong to seek my Grandfather to ANSWER my prayer - but then what difference does it make whether he was alive on Earth or much more alive now in Heaven? Lost me, friend.

I think it's wrong to pray TO someone other than God - I can't image why that's WORSE if they are in heaven than if they are on Earth. Only God is God and only God divinely answers prayer. But when Confessional Lutheran asked us to pray FOR his grandmother, he was not praying TO us but asking us to pray FOR someone (see the difference, friend?); all valid prayers are directed to God but it's not sinful to seek others to join you in that, IMO. I think there's a difference.... perhaps you disagree.




Friend, are we agreeing? Or are you squarely in MennoSota's camp as you declared?




- Josiah



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[MoreCoffee]

In the tabernacle there were images of angels that were in the holy place and in the most holy place (on the curtain that separated the holy from the most holy). And when the temple was built the molten sea was supported by twelve bronze bulls.

 

[Josiah]

Incidentally, I can't help thinking of the issue of the bronze serpent that Moses lifted up in the desert, when the Israelites were plagued by snakes. They looked upon the serpent, but they didn't worship it. Later on people did worship it and burn incense to it (if I recall they named it Nehushtan, and King Hezekiah had it broken into pieces).

The first use was perfectly acceptable, the second not so much.

What he said....

 

[MennoSota]

See post # 3 which you evaded.

I honor Abraham Lincoln. Even Albert Einstein. What's wrong with honoring people? The Bible says that all generations will honor Mary, is it wrong to suggest we should?

Do you go to the Lincoln memorial, burn incense and ask Lincoln to pray for you in hopes that he will bring you a mystical blessing?

Yes, some churches spend money on art. I don't think that's wrong. God designed the Temple and it was pretty fancy. But yes, you can hold that churches should be concrete boxes void of any color or design, void of any thing pretty. Your choice. Isn't necessarily cheaper however.

Do you call idols, art?
The Jews removed every image from their synagogues because of their propensity to worship idols. Does God approve of idols?

Theologically, I suggest you discuss this with George. It is ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY in the Eastern Orthodox tradition that there is claimed to be some "mystical connection" as you put it with an icon. I don't think it's true in anything remotely the way you think, but there is a tradition in the East. But he's the only one here who is EO and only he could address that.

You are apparently ignorant of the Roman church and the animism that oozes from churches around the world as parishioners worship their "saints."

Yes, when I see a picture of my wife or son.... I think of them, and I guess there is some emotional connection. But I'm not sure why you think that's SO horrible and wrong, much less why my smiling at a picture of my son means that ergo I'm declaring him to be the God. My church has a Cross on the wall (kinda big, pretty dominate)... and yes, makes me think of what Jesus did for us, so yes, I guess some kind of a "connection." Does your church disallow crosses? Photos? Anything that might remind anyone of anything.... and thus declare such to be the God?

They don't bow to a cross or pray to it in hopes that it will mystically benefit them.
Josiah, your pretzelling is interesting to me. Why do you want to worship something other than God?

NONE does. No denomination believes that the dead (who are all in hell) venerate anything good or pray at all.

This is a universal statement. Prove it.

Most teach that Jesus was right and that those who died in Christ are made alive, that there is an after-LIFE for all Christians in heaven.

This has nothing to do with making statues and icons.

Christians believe that in Christ, those in heaven live - just as He promised. Of course, you may deny that.

Stravinsk says he's a Christian.
Again, you are creating a red herring. Even more...you are doggedly pushing your red herring as though it gives you legitimacy. It doesn't. It just means you have nothing of value to add to this thread.

Denominations can't pray. Only people can.

Denominations teach dogma and can promote dogma that goes contrary to scripture.

No one believes we should pray to those in hell.

But people do so everyday when they pray to "saints" who were never adopted by God.

See Tango's post # 9 for your later hijack of your own thread.

Indeed, you and Tango eat red herring at every turn. You must like it.

 

[MennoSota]

Incidentally, I can't help thinking of the issue of the bronze serpent that Moses lifted up in the desert, when the Israelites were plagued by snakes. They looked upon the serpent, but they didn't worship it. Later on people did worship it and burn incense to it (if I recall they named it Nehushtan, and King Hezekiah had it broken into pieces).

The first use was perfectly acceptable, the second not so much.

It was King Josiah...but essentially you had it right.
The same thing happens today with the Roman relics.

 

[MennoSota]

In the tabernacle there were images of angels that were in the holy place and in the most holy place (on the curtain that separated the holy from the most holy). And when the temple was built the molten sea was supported by twelve bronze bulls.

Read Ezekiel and see how the people ended up worshipping the images and Baal right in the temple rather than Jehovah God.
Humans have this rebellious way of taking what God designed and twisting it into something they worship rather than God himself.

 

[Josiah]

Do you go to the Lincoln memorial, burn incense and ask Lincoln to pray for you in hopes that he will bring you a mystical blessing?

Your rant is to those who venerate (respect) people. I simply noted that there is nothing wrong with this, but you didn't seem to "get it."

I know of NONE who suggest any should pray TO anyone or anything; the universal counsel is for ALL to pray TO God. Of course, no one says otherwise. But your rant is that we can't request others to pray FOR us to God.... and you especially have a problem with the REALLY alive doing this (those in heaven) since you hold that in Christ, we are DEAD and that there is no after-LIFE for Christians, just eternal death.

Does God approve of idols?

Depends how you define it..... Is God in favor of objects being stated to be God? No. But then a Cross is not stated to be the GOD. A statue of Martin Luther at Concordia Seminary is not stated to be GOD. A statue of Mary in front of a church is not stated to be GOD. A stain glass window is not stated to be the Lord God. A woman wearing a Cross is not a declaration that she states that piece of jewlry is the Lord God. You get things seriously (and absurdly) confused.

You are apparently ignorant of the Roman church

I'm a former Catholic. I know what all my teachers taught us. And they taught us that praying TO a saint is a sin, all prayers are to be directed to God alone. But they didn't reach us that Jesus lied about the after-LIFE of Christians and that
Christ, we're all just eternally dead in hell.

The "mystical connection" of which you seem to speak is an aspect of EASTERN Christian spirituality. Again, the only one HERE you can discuss that with is George since he's the only EO here. I doubt you will, however.

They don't bow to a cross or pray to it in hopes that it will mystically benefit them.

I don't know.... Maybe there is some benefit from honoring the President or the Queen.... in respecting the Judge in a courtroom or a superior officer in the military.... in honoring war vets..... But only in a limited since.

But again, I think you are evading much and holding to some VERY unorthodox views (including that those who die in Christ are no different than those who don't, all end up eternally dead in hell).

Why do you want to worship something other than God?

No Christian does. Where is your proof that when a karate student bows before his sensai, that sensei ergo is the Lord God? Where is your proof that when I stand for the flag of the USA, the flag is thus God? Where is your proof that those in heaven are eternally dead and there is no after-LIFE in Christ but all Christians are dead in hell?

This has nothing to do with making statues and icons

Evidently, you've not only not read what others have posted in this thread, but not even what you have. See your post #8 for example. Evidently, you didn't read that post you posted.

Denominations teach dogma and can promote dogma that goes contrary to scripture.

So.... quote a denomination teaching that we are to pray to the dead. Just quote the paragraph (they are always numbered) in the official Catechism of the denomination. Just quote the number.... and then the statement, "You are to pray to dead people."

I can tell you what our Catholic teachers told us. We are forbidden to pray to dead people, and we are forbidden to pray to living people (whether they are on Earth or in Heaven) - we are to direct all prayers to God. I know this (because I've read the Catholic Catechism many times), there is no paragraph that states, "You are to pray to dead people." So, since we all know it's not the Catholic denomination that teaches what you claim some denomination does, just quote from the Catechism of the denomination(s) that do. I'd be very interested. But here's what I suspect: You just made it up. You are just repeating some denominational spin and haven't thought it through and clearly having checked the teachings of ANY denomination to see if what you are spreading have an ounce of truth in it. It's called spreading gossip. And our Catholic teachers taught us that's a sin.


Like Tango, I don't do this.... and I don't regard it as sound. But what YOU are saying is silly (you just haven't thought your position through - and if you READ what others posted to you, you could). You are just spreading gossip. And I KNOW (former Catholic here) that it's all lies when directed to the RCC. I don't deny some individual Catholic PERSON may transgress here, but then there are individual Catholics who commit adultery and murder but it would be wrong that the RCC Denomination promotes such just because you can find a Catholic among the 1.2 billion who do it. Sometimes, friend, you need to stop and think.






.

 

[tango]

It was King Josiah...but essentially you had it right.
The same thing happens today with the Roman relics.

Just looked it up. 2Kings 18 - King Hezekiah.

 

[MennoSota]

Your rant is to those who venerate (respect) people. I simply noted that there is nothing wrong with this, but you didn't seem to "get it."

I know of NONE who suggest any should pray TO anyone or anything; the universal counsel is for ALL to pray TO God. Of course, no one says otherwise. But your rant is that we can't request others to pray FOR us to God.... and you especially have a problem with the REALLY alive doing this (those in heaven) since you hold that in Christ, we are DEAD and that there is no after-LIFE for Christians, just eternal death.







Depends how you define it..... Is God in favor of objects being stated to be God? No. But then a Cross is not stated to be the GOD. A statue of Martin Luther at Concordia Seminary is not stated to be GOD. A statue of Mary in front of a church is not stated to be GOD. A stain glass window is not stated to be the Lord God. A woman wearing a Cross is not a declaration that she states that piece of jewlry is the Lord God. You get things seriously (and absurdly) confused.







I'm a former Catholic. I know what all my teachers taught us. And they taught us that praying TO a saint is a sin, all prayers are to be directed to God alone. But they didn't reach us that Jesus lied about the after-LIFE of Christians and that
Christ, we're all just eternally dead in hell.

The "mystical connection" of which you seem to speak is an aspect of EASTERN Christian spirituality. Again, the only one HERE you can discuss that with is George since he's the only EO here. I doubt you will, however.







I don't know.... Maybe there is some benefit from honoring the President or the Queen.... in respecting the Judge in a courtroom or a superior officer in the military.... in honoring war vets..... But only in a limited since.

But again, I think you are evading much and holding to some VERY unorthodox views (including that those who die in Christ are no different than those who don't, all end up eternally dead in hell).







No Christian does. Where is your proof that when a karate student bows before his sensai, that sensei ergo is the Lord God? Where is your proof that when I stand for the flag of the USA, the flag is thus God? Where is your proof that those in heaven are eternally dead and there is no after-LIFE in Christ but all Christians are dead in hell?






Evidently, you've not only not read what others have posted in this thread, but not even what you have. See your post #8 for example. Evidently, you didn't read that post you posted.







So.... quote a denomination teaching that we are to pray to the dead. Just quote the paragraph (they are always numbered) in the official Catechism of the denomination. Just quote the number.... and then the statement, "You are to pray to dead people."

I can tell you what our Catholic teachers told us. We are forbidden to pray to dead people, and we are forbidden to pray to living people (whether they are on Earth or in Heaven) - we are to direct all prayers to God. I know this (because I've read the Catholic Catechism many times), there is no paragraph that states, "You are to pray to dead people." So, since we all know it's not the Catholic denomination that teaches what you claim some denomination does, just quote from the Catechism of the denomination(s) that do. I'd be very interested. But here's what I suspect: You just made it up. You are just repeating some denominational spin and haven't thought it through and clearly having checked the teachings of ANY denomination to see if what you are spreading have an ounce of truth in it. It's called spreading gossip. And our Catholic teachers taught us that's a sin.


Like Tango, I don't do this.... and I don't regard it as sound. But what YOU are saying is silly (you just haven't thought your position through - and if you READ what others posted to you, you could). You are just spreading gossip. And I KNOW (former Catholic here) that it's all lies when directed to the RCC. I don't deny some individual Catholic PERSON may transgress here, but then there are individual Catholics who commit adultery and murder but it would be wrong that the RCC Denomination promotes such just because you can find a Catholic among the 1.2 billion who do it. Sometimes, friend, you need to stop and think.






.

I think you live in a small bubble, Josiah.

 

[MennoSota]

Just looked it up. 2Kings 18 - King Hezekiah.

I stand corrected. Thank you. I was thinking of the calf that Jeroboam created as a means of keeping Israel from going to Jerusalem to worship YHWH. He told Israel to worship at Bethel instead.

2 Kings 23
[15]The king also tore down the altar at Bethel—the pagan shrine that Jeroboam son of Nebat had made when he caused Israel to sin. He burned down the shrine and ground it to dust, and he burned the Asherah pole.

 

[MennoSota]

It is interesting to see just how bad the idol worship was right in the Temple area in Jerusalem. The sanctuary of God had been turned into a place to worship other gods. Yet we have church denominations today who encourage paganism in their buildings.
2 Kings 23:4-14
[4]Then the king instructed Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second rank and the Temple gatekeepers to remove from the lord’s Temple all the articles that were used to worship Baal, Asherah, and all the powers of the heavens. The king had all these things burned outside Jerusalem on the terraces of the Kidron Valley, and he carried the ashes away to Bethel.
[5]He did away with the idolatrous priests, who had been appointed by the previous kings of Judah, for they had offered sacrifices at the pagan shrines throughout Judah and even in the vicinity of Jerusalem. They had also offered sacrifices to Baal, and to the sun, the moon, the constellations, and to all the powers of the heavens.
[6]The king removed the Asherah pole from the lord’s Temple and took it outside Jerusalem to the Kidron Valley, where he burned it. Then he ground the ashes of the pole to dust and threw the dust over the graves of the people.
[7]He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the lord, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole.
[8]Josiah brought to Jerusalem all the priests who were living in other towns of Judah. He also defiled the pagan shrines, where they had offered sacrifices—all the way from Geba to Beersheba. He destroyed the shrines at the entrance to the gate of Joshua, the governor of Jerusalem. This gate was located to the left of the city gate as one enters the city.
[9]The priests who had served at the pagan shrines were not allowed to serve at the lord’s altar in Jerusalem, but they were allowed to eat unleavened bread with the other priests.
[10]Then the king defiled the altar of Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, so no one could ever again use it to sacrifice a son or daughter in the fire as an offering to Molech.
[11]He removed from the entrance of the lord’s Temple the horse statues that the former kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were near the quarters of Nathan-melech the eunuch, an officer of the court. The king also burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.
[12]Josiah tore down the altars that the kings of Judah had built on the palace roof above the upper room of Ahaz. The king destroyed the altars that Manasseh had built in the two courtyards of the lord’s Temple. He smashed them to bits and scattered the pieces in the Kidron Valley.
[13]The king also desecrated the pagan shrines east of Jerusalem, to the south of the Mount of Corruption, where King Solomon of Israel had built shrines for Ashtoreth, the detestable goddess of the Sidonians; and for Chemosh, the detestable god of the Moabites; and for Molech, the vile god of the Ammonites.
[14]He smashed the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah poles. Then he desecrated these places by scattering human bones over them.

 

[Romanos]

Rather than resulting to snide remarks and rude comments, let's keeps the discussion mature and respectful.

 

[Josiah]

It is interesting to see just how bad the idol worship was right in the Temple area in Jerusalem. The sanctuary of God had been turned into a place to worship other gods. Yet we have church denominations today who encourage paganism in their buildings.
2 Kings 23:4-14
[4]Then the king instructed Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second rank and the Temple gatekeepers to remove from the lord’s Temple all the articles that were used to worship Baal, Asherah, and all the powers of the heavens. The king had all these things burned outside Jerusalem on the terraces of the Kidron Valley, and he carried the ashes away to Bethel.
[5]He did away with the idolatrous priests, who had been appointed by the previous kings of Judah, for they had offered sacrifices at the pagan shrines throughout Judah and even in the vicinity of Jerusalem. They had also offered sacrifices to Baal, and to the sun, the moon, the constellations, and to all the powers of the heavens.
[6]The king removed the Asherah pole from the lord’s Temple and took it outside Jerusalem to the Kidron Valley, where he burned it. Then he ground the ashes of the pole to dust and threw the dust over the graves of the people.
[7]He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the lord, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole.
[8]Josiah brought to Jerusalem all the priests who were living in other towns of Judah. He also defiled the pagan shrines, where they had offered sacrifices—all the way from Geba to Beersheba. He destroyed the shrines at the entrance to the gate of Joshua, the governor of Jerusalem. This gate was located to the left of the city gate as one enters the city.
[9]The priests who had served at the pagan shrines were not allowed to serve at the lord’s altar in Jerusalem, but they were allowed to eat unleavened bread with the other priests.
[10]Then the king defiled the altar of Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, so no one could ever again use it to sacrifice a son or daughter in the fire as an offering to Molech.
[11]He removed from the entrance of the lord’s Temple the horse statues that the former kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were near the quarters of Nathan-melech the eunuch, an officer of the court. The king also burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.
[12]Josiah tore down the altars that the kings of Judah had built on the palace roof above the upper room of Ahaz. The king destroyed the altars that Manasseh had built in the two courtyards of the lord’s Temple. He smashed them to bits and scattered the pieces in the Kidron Valley.
[13]The king also desecrated the pagan shrines east of Jerusalem, to the south of the Mount of Corruption, where King Solomon of Israel had built shrines for Ashtoreth, the detestable goddess of the Sidonians; and for Chemosh, the detestable god of the Moabites; and for Molech, the vile god of the Ammonites.
[14]He smashed the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah poles. Then he desecrated these places by scattering human bones over them.

No evidence that ANY denomination on the planet teaches that we are to pray to the dead.... or that if we bow or honor anything or anyone, we thus declare them to be the Lord God.

IF you could prove that even ONE person on the entire planet Earth prays TO a DEAD person or persons (and you've not even attempted to do so, you've not even named one - much less prove they pray TO the DEAD), that has nothing to do with any denomination (much less the multiple denominations you claim) do so.

I think you've attempted to spread some horrible gossip here.... with NOTHING to support a word of it. And worse, you are spreading a falsehood that Christians have no after-LIFE but are eternally dead as are non-Christians.

Humans have this rebellious way of taking what God designed and twisting it into something they worship rather than God himself.

You insist that DENOMINATIONS do this and that a multiple number of them TEACH people to do this, especially, to regard some things as the Lord God and to pray TO those who are DEAD but in heaven.

Thing is.... you can't show one denomination on the entire Earth doing what you claim, not even one denomination teaching what you insist a bunch of them do. We're waiting for the statement in the Catechism of at least two stating, "You are to pray TO those who are DEAD." "You are to regard certain inanimate objects as The Lord God." Maybe, if you cared, you could find some Baptist who commits adultery - but that would have NOTHING to do with several Baptist denominations therefore teaching "You are to commit adultery." There MIGHT be one person among the 2.2 billion Christians who prays to the dead (all of whom are in hell) as God and looking to some DEAD entity in hell to answer it - but that would hardly substantiate anything you've posted here, and you haven't even attempted to prove that.

IMO, what you are doing is spreading gossip.... which is a sin. We all know this kind of trash gets spread around the 'net, in all directions. Spreading it - in the worse possible and most sweeping way - is just spreading careless gossip. And revealing that you simply haven't thought it through or checked it out. And you dismissal of attempts to help you think it through just show you don't want to. Ecumenical discussions are hard enough without the insistent, blatant and careless spreading of gossip.





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