For what purpose do denominations build icons and statues

[MennoSota]

The veneration of saints is something that baffles me. Churches will spend a lot of money to create an image or statue of some person they think has a mystical connection to God.
The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ our Lord. Yet, some denominations teach veneration and prayer via dead people.
The Dakota peoples have shamans that teach people to pray and use burning sage so prayers go up to the ancestors in mediation. Why would Christian denominations co-opt an animistic practice of praying to the dead?

 

[psalms 91]

Like you I question this as well

 

[Josiah]

The veneration of saints is something that baffles me. Churches will spend a lot of money to create an image or statue of some person they think has a mystical connection to God.
The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ our Lord. Yet, some denominations teach veneration and prayer via dead people.
The Dakota peoples have shamans that teach people to pray and use burning sage so prayers go up to the ancestors in mediation. Why would Christian denominations co-opt an animistic practice of praying to the dead?

Of course, no denomination even CAN build icons or statues, only people can do that.


IMO, it is appropriate and often helpful to have human models (we use to even speak of 'heroes'). The Bible itself does this, pointing to Abraham, Moses, David (and don't forget Josiah!) - even though all (but Josiah) were very flawed and had their sins (even big ones). It's often true that parents name their children for people they hold in esteem. Consider all the talk about Billy Graham - even by the secular media. He was a good man, who did good things, and it's good to honor that. Mother Theresa to this day is a HERO in India - even among non-Christians. I find nothing wrong with that. I wish more would look to Billy Graham and Mother Theresa as their models.....

And if you've ever been to Washington DC (or any nother national capitol), it is supersaturated with icons. Paintings in buildings, statues in plazas, names of buildings and parks - honoring national heroes. They are national icons. IMO, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were great men (although they had their great flaws, too) and I think it's actually appropiate to have all those icons to them in our nations' capitol. If you've been to London or Paris or Madrad - you'll see this is common.

Frankly, I think that some churches embrace heroes (often called "Saints") and hold their examples up to people as practical examples of what they too can do (again, Mother Theresa comes to mind). For reasons I don't know, "Evangelical" Christians don't do this, perhaps choosing to only see the bad in people and never any good, having no example of any Christian who perhaps was (relatively) faithful - although sometimes those pastors will use a sermon illustration of someone who did right (perhaps Corrie Ten Boom) - as long as they've never been called a "saint" (then they refuse to mention them - lest they sound "Catholic"). There CAN be good (if not perfect) human examples.... there CAN be Christians (like Mother Theresa and Billy Graham) who did good.... and holding them up as examples in stead of some movie or pop star can be good. I find it silly that some Evangelicals won't do that if they have ever been called a "saint."


Thank you.


A blessed Lenten season to all....


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

Josiah, I think his point is not that icons or statues exist for information such as history or even teaching such as our stained glass windows do but instead that some revere icons and statues to the extent that they are worshiped.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I think his point is not that icons or statues exist for information such as history or even teaching such as our stained glass windows do but instead that some revere icons and statues to the extent that they are worshiped.

I've never witnessed that.

Yes, in some Orthodox and Roman Catholic communities, one may bow to a statue or painting.... but that's not worshipping in the sense of holding such to be God. When I'm at the ballpark, they have the national anthem. We all stand and take off our hats and hold our hand on our heart - facing the flag. Are we regarding that flag as GOD? That's just silly and absurd.... we are honoring what they flag represents. I had a friend who was a black belt Karate teacher; I saw people bow to him. Did they regard him as God? Nope. I see the English bow before the Queen, do they consider her to be God? Come on...... sometimes these things just get beyond silly. We can do things that HONOR what is represented here.... Why in my Lutheran church, we bow at we approach the altar.... we stand when the Gospel is read..... why, because we consider some table to be God? We regard four books of the Bible to be God? Sometimes, this just gets beyond silly. As a former Catholic, I can assure you, NO CATHOLIC on the planet regards a statue of Mary to be God. They do honor her (as those kids honored a Karate teacher and I honor the flag; they hold her to be blessed) but NO ONE regards her as God. The statue or painting is not am "image" in the OT sense. But she is an icon in the same sense that Billy Graham and Mother Theresa is for Christians, or George Washington is for Americans - someone honored.


I think some people need to get our their dictionary and look up the word "worship." Only ONE of the meanings has anything whatsoever to do with regarding something as God. In England, a towns mayor is addressed as "your worship." Believe me, NO ONE in England regards ANY mayor as God.

 

[Albion]

Josiah, I think his point is not that icons or statues exist for information such as history or even teaching such as our stained glass windows do but instead that some revere icons and statues to the extent that they are worshiped.

I agree, except that I would word it a little bit differently. Like this--

"...to the extent that they are used in worship" (of the saints).

It probably is going too far to charge such Christians with worshipping the statues themselves.

 

[NewCreation435]

The veneration of saints is something that baffles me. Churches will spend a lot of money to create an image or statue of some person they think has a mystical connection to God.
The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ our Lord. Yet, some denominations teach veneration and prayer via dead people.
The Dakota peoples have shamans that teach people to pray and use burning sage so prayers go up to the ancestors in mediation. Why would Christian denominations co-opt an animistic practice of praying to the dead?

I don't know. Baptist generally don't do this

 

[MennoSota]

Why worship an idol?

 

[tango]

Believe me, NO ONE in England regards ANY mayor as God.

I sometimes wondered about some of the mayors and how they saw themselves

Seriously though, you make good points regarding the differences between reverence and worship.

In England there are also a number of livery companies, known as "The Worshipful Company of (whatever)" - there are companies of everything from barbers to clockmakers to florists. From what I can tell they are at least somewhat ceremonial in nature, referring back to traditions that have lasted for centuries. I can't say I was involved in any of them but from what I gather there isn't a whole lot of worship going on there.

A number of terms used to describe and address people suggest rank - a title like "Your Highness" suggests that the subject is, well, higher. Someone who is "lowly" is lower. Bowing and curtsying are processes by which one makes oneself lower - even if these practices do largely date back to more feudal times they do little more than acknowledge the status of another rather than necessarily implying worship.

As another example (in the UK at least) it's considered good form to bow when entering a court room if the judge is sitting. If the judge enters while you are seated it is expected that you will stand to acknowledge the judge, then sit only after the judge is seated.

 

[Josiah]

I sometimes wondered about some of the mayors and how they saw themselves

Seriously though, you make good points regarding the differences between reverence and worship.

In England there are also a number of livery companies, known as "The Worshipful Company of (whatever)" - there are companies of everything from barbers to clockmakers to florists. From what I can tell they are at least somewhat ceremonial in nature, referring back to traditions that have lasted for centuries. I can't say I was involved in any of them but from what I gather there isn't a whole lot of worship going on there.

A number of terms used to describe and address people suggest rank - a title like "Your Highness" suggests that the subject is, well, higher. Someone who is "lowly" is lower. Bowing and curtsying are processes by which one makes oneself lower - even if these practices do largely date back to more feudal times they do little more than acknowledge the status of another rather than necessarily implying worship.

As another example (in the UK at least) it's considered good form to bow when entering a court room if the judge is sitting. If the judge enters while you are seated it is expected that you will stand to acknowledge the judge, then sit only after the judge is seated.

I think sometimes people need to use their dictionary.....

 

[Josiah]

Why worship an idol?

No.

No more than an English person is worshiping a courtroom as God when they enter it..... or students bowing before a Sensei are regarding him as God.... or my standing and talking off my hat and putting my hand over my heart during the National Anthem means I am worshiping the flag as God.... or the Japanese grandmother who lives next to my parents regards jsut about everyone as God since she bows as she greets people.....

 

[MennoSota]

No.

No more than an English person is worshiping a courtroom as God when they enter it..... or students bowing before a Sensei are regarding him as God.... or my standing and talking off my hat and putting my hand over my heart during the National Anthem means I am worshiping the flag as God.... or the Japanese grandmother who lives next to my parents regards jsut about everyone as God since she bows as she greets people.....

Are you praying to them while you bow?
There are denominations who advocate asking the "saints" to mediate for you and then they provide a shrine or mystical artifacts that you can make a pilgrimage to and seek special devine help through those mediators. Such reverence toward the dead becomes worship as you expect these dead people to benefit you in some mystical way.

 

[Josiah]

Are you praying to them while you bow?
There are denominations who advocate asking the "saints" to mediate for you and then they provide a shrine or mystical artifacts that you can make a pilgrimage to and seek special devine help through those mediators. Such reverence toward the dead becomes worship as you expect these dead people to benefit you in some mystical way.

1. Some Christians believe in LIFE after death for the justified, others that there is no life after death, that when a Christian dies, he is just DEAD. Perhaps you belong in the second group.

2. Asking another to pray for you is not regarding them as God nor worshiping them as such. I think you have things VERY confused.

3. No. If I expect my bunny to do something, I'm not THEREBY declaring my bunny to be God. I think you have things REALLY confused.


A blesses Lenten season to all....


- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

1. Some Christians believe in LIFE after death for the justified, others that there is no life after death, that when a Christian dies, he is just DEAD. Perhaps you belong in the second group.

Nope, but I recognize Jesus as my mediator. My ancestors may be in heaven or hell, but they are not ones I call upon to mediate on my behalf. Why? Because there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

2. Asking another to pray for you is not regarding them as God nor worshiping them as such. I think you have things VERY confused.

Do you build a shrine for your dead and ask them to mediate for you? That is what pagans do. Is this ordained by God for Christians to do the same?

3. No. If I expect my bunny to do something, I'm not THEREBY declaring my bunny to be God. I think you have things REALLY confused.

I have no idea what rabbit trail you have taken. Your point makes no sense.

A blesses Lenten season to all....

Where is lent taught in the Bible?

 

[Josiah]

Nope, but I recognize Jesus as my mediator.

So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?

My ancestors may be in heaven or hell, but they are not ones I call upon to mediate on my behalf.

Your choice.

Why? Because there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?

Does your church forbid people from praying for others because there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ? Does your denomination teach that the Holy Scriptures are wrong to instruct us to pray for one another?

If someone prays for another, does that mean they therefore are God? If you ask someone to pray for you, are you declaring them to be God?

Odd.... very odd.....

I have no idea what rabbit trail you have taken. Your point makes no sense.

You indicated that if we expect certain things of another, we therefore regard them as God. I didn't think that made much sense - but then nothing you've posted in this thread has made any sense to me at all.

Where is lent taught in the Bible?

Where is posting on the internet taught in the Bible? Yet, here you are... posting on the internet.



Very odd. Very odd indeed.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?

Irrelevant to the topic of icons and statutes. Another red herring you are using to avoid the topic.

So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?

Irrelevant to the topic of icons and statutes. Another red herring.

Does your church forbid people from praying for others because there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ? Does your denomination teach that the Holy Scriptures are wrong to instruct us to pray for one another?

Irrelevant to the topic of icons and statutes. Another red herring.

If someone prays for another, does that mean they therefore are God? If you ask someone to pray for you, are you declaring them to be God?

Irrelevant to the topic of icons and statutes. Another red herring.

Odd.... very odd.....

Indeed your attempt to change the topic is odd...very odd...

You indicated that if we expect certain things of another, we therefore regard them as God. I didn't think that made much sense - but then nothing you've posted in this thread has made any sense to me at all.

That's okay if things don't make sense to you. I don't hold it against you.

Where is posting on the internet taught in the Bible? Yet, here you are... posting on the internet.

Irrelevant to the topic of icons and statutes. Another red herring.

Very odd. Very odd indeed.

Indeed, your inability to stay on topic is odd. You seem to enjoy herring, however. [emoji226]

 

[Andrew]

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Acts 17:16-34


Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[NewCreation435]

So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?





Your choice.






So, if you ask a brother or sister to pray for you, you therefore regard that person as God?

Does your church forbid people from praying for others because there is only one mediator between God and man, which is Jesus Christ? Does your denomination teach that the Holy Scriptures are wrong to instruct us to pray for one another?

If someone prays for another, does that mean they therefore are God? If you ask someone to pray for you, are you declaring them to be God?

Odd.... very odd.....






You indicated that if we expect certain things of another, we therefore regard them as God. I didn't think that made much sense - but then nothing you've posted in this thread has made any sense to me at all.





Where is posting on the internet taught in the Bible? Yet, here you are... posting on the internet.



Very odd. Very odd indeed.



- Josiah

I would have to side with Mennosota on this one. Adding someone who is dead to your prayers is talking to the dead and is spiritism at best which is forbidden in the Old Testament. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it even suggests that I should pray to the dead. Please give me a scripture passage if it does because I don't recall reading that one.
It suggests that somehow if I just get enough people to pray for me then God will have to answer. When the Bible says that the Lord knows what I need before I ask him. Praying to the dead and asking them to intercede for me also suggests that somehow God can be manipulated by others if I just get enough people on my side. Do we doubt God's ability or willingness to do good things for his children?

Isaiah 8:19 "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

Deut 18:10-12 0 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.""

Isaiah 19:3 "The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists."

The word "consult" in Isaiah 8:19 is the trasliterated word darash and is in all three of the above scripture references and which means the following:
to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require

(Qal)

to resort to, frequent (a place), (tread a place)

to consult, enquire of, seek

of God

of heathen gods, necromancers

to seek deity in prayer and worship

God

heathen deities

to seek (with a demand), demand, require

to investigate, enquire

to ask for, require, demand

to practice, study, follow, seek with application

to seek with care, care for

(Niphal)

to allow oneself to be enquired of, consulted (only of God)

to be sought, be sought out

to be required (of blood)

 

[Josiah]

Adding someone who is dead to your prayers is talking to the dead and is spiritism at best which is forbidden in the Old Testament. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it even suggests that I should pray to the dead. Please give me a scripture passage if it does because I don't recall reading that one.

Friend, I think it was Jesus who said that while they die, yet shall they live. I don't believe that when Christians die, it's like when an rat or cockroach dies. I believe that when Christians die, they are made alive in Christ and they are in heaven. I don't think DEAD are in heaven, I think alive are in heaven. Do you disagree?

It suggests that somehow if I just get enough people to pray for me then God will have to answer.

No. Although friend, you are changing the subject. The issue of this thread is that if we ask someone to pray to them, if we bow before a person or image, if we kneel - are we thereby stating such is the God.


Friend, if you ask all those at CH to pray for you or a loved one, does that mandate that you believe having God hear the prayer is a mathematical factor of how many God counts as praying? I doubt. The Bible itself encourages us to pray for one another, it doens't set a limit on how many can be or should be asked. I'll bet there are times when most of the people of the world are praying for something (for example for peace during WW 2), does that mean God therefore won't answer it? The US Congress has often asked all Americans to pray for something, is that wrong? Does that mean God won't answer it, because too many were asked to pray? See my point?

When the Bible says that the Lord knows what I need before I ask him

Yes. Does that mean you never pray? Was Jesus wrong to pray? Was Jesus wrong to tell us to pray and to give us the Lord's Prayer? Is Scripture wrong to tell us to pray for one another?

suggests that somehow God can be manipulated by others if I just get enough people on my side.

I disagree. We ARE to pray.... but I disagree that the Bible indicates that God won't hear us unless X percentage of humans request it. Nonetheless, we are told to pray for each other.... Jesus prayed. Jesus taught all of us to pray.


Now, where does Scripture indicate that if we stand for the National Anthem or bow to the Queen or Sensai, or stand when a judge or the president enters the room (or even a lady)..... that means ERGO that person is the God? That's what we are discussing. This thread is not, "It is a sound practice to request our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for us?" That's a whole other enchilada. This is about knelling or bowing before a statue or person ergo mandates the object of such is God.

Isaiah 8:19 "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

Deut 18:10-12 0 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.""

Isaiah 19:3 "The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists."

Dead people are in hell. NO ONE known to me has EVER suggested that we request those in hell to pray to God for us.

Those in heaven are alive..... and with Jesus. Or so the Bible claims, anyway.

Now, friend, if you agree with MennoSota that Christians are also in hell, that the Bible is wrong about life after death, then I see your point. But we disagree on something MUCH bigger than whether a karate student bowing before his sensai means the teacher is God or a person bowing before the Cross means they told that a piece of wood is God.




Now, where does Scripture indicate that if we stand for the National Anthem or bow to the Queen or Sensai, or stand when a judge or the president enters the room (or even a lady)..... that means ERGO that person is the God? That's what we are discussing. This thread is not, "It is a sound practice to request our brothers and sisters in Heaven to pray for us?" That's a whole other enchilada. This is about knelling or bowing before a statue or person ergo mandates the object of such is God.



Thank you.



Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

I would have to side with Mennosota on this one.

Me, too. Christ is our only mediator and advocate.

I don't consider this to be spiritism, but it is a request for intercession. Some prayers even attribute powers to that saint to fulfil the request on their own.

In addition, the only verse that supports the idea of us asking another to pray on our behalf refers to a neighbor, someone like ourselves, not someone who has suffered physical death and gone onto the next life. And that neighbor would be doing exactly what you yourself would be doing--asking the Father, not acting as a preferred intermediary.