For what purpose do denominations build icons and statues

[Albion]

I'm not seeing any distinction between praying to someone, and asking someone to pray for you, in what I'm reading here.

If it's saints we are still talking about, I don't think there is any distinction, but I suspect that I'm missing the point you want to make.

If I pray to you, as if you were God, then there's a problem.
If I ask you to pray for me then I'm merely asking you to join with me in praying to God, in which case there isn't a problem.

Wait a moment. IF the person is in the afterlife--that's where this all began--then it is wrong. And if that saint is being asked to pray for you, you are asking him to act as an intermediary with God, not just join you in prayer. That is exactly what the RCC, for example, teaches about praying to the dead and it's what almost everyone who prays to some saint understands.

To "address" someone could be either, so to argue that "addressing" any given individual is sinful is to assume something that just isn't there.

No. It's a euphemism for praying. The assertions that were made earlier in the thread are now being watered down.

 

[Josiah]

Here's my (evidently unique and rebuked) perspective.....


1. Among the MANY bold, sweeping, flaming accusations here is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." Of course, nothing has been offered to substantiate this. There is at least one denomination known to me that permits Christians to request those living in heaven to pray to God for them, but that's a whole other enchilada. Yes, I don't deny there are probably individuals doing wrong but that doesn't mean the denomination teaches them to do so. If I can find a Baptist who murdered his wife, that does not mean that ergo all Baptist denominations dogmatically teach that all are to murder their wives. A lot of silliness in this thread that surprisingly is being defended.


2. There have been given two reasons why it is forbidden to request loved ones in heaven to pray to God with us..... A) Christians in heaven are just DEAD, there being no after LIFE, indeed they become demons and devils so that the prohibition from speaking with DEAD DEMONS applies to Christians in heaven. B) It is expressly stated as sin to communicate with the living in heaven. I simply reject the two reasons: The first makes Jesus a liar, the second makes Jesus a sinner.


3. It is silly to insist that if one disagrees with the reasons given to flame a denomination, ERGO a practice is being promoted and encouraged. Again, if I disagree with the bold statement that it is a sin to eat a gallon of ice cream after every meal because it makes your hair fall out" is NOT the same thing as endorsing and promoting the practice of eating a gallon of ice cream after every meal. There's much silliness in this thread, much of it defended. Tango and I have repeatedly said we don 't practice this and don't promote it.


4. I hold that it IS wrong to pray TO anything or anyone anywhere other than God (whether such is living on earth or more fully living in heaven is irrelevant.....). I've said this repeatedly. It's just I disagree with the bold statement and premise of this thread that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to pray TO subjects other than God. And I disagree with the bold statement that these several denominations dogmatically teach that all are to pray to the DEAD (all of whom are in hell). Those defending this thread have yet to quote even ONE denomination dogmatically teaching this. I suspect the reason no one has even TRIED to prove the accusation true is because they know it's not. That disturbs me (even though I suspect the never-stated object of the flame is the RCC, which I'm not known to passionately defend, lol). These ecumenical discussions are hard enough without folks knowingly lying and others defending that.



To change the subject: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686





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[MennoSota]

I'm pointing out the difference between reverence and worship. The difference between the Israelites beholding the bronze snake that Moses lifted up, and the Israelites worshiping the bronze snake in later years. The bronze snake wasn't the problem, the problem was when people worshiped it - if the snake had been the problem all along then Moses shouldn't have been lifting it up in the first place.

In theory one could bow down and worship just about anything but we don't use that as a reason for prohibiting anything that somebody might worship. Worshiping something that is not God is a bad thing to do, but it doesn't make the object of worship an inherently bad thing. Theoretically speaking you could come to my house and worship my television, and if that were to happen the problem would be that you were worshiping the wrong thing - it would be absurd to insist that the television be removed and destroyed because you were worshiping it.

What are the people in your picture actually doing? Are they praying to God in front of a statue, or are they praying to the statue? I don't know what's in their hearts so the picture in and of itself proves little. Sometimes I kneel at my computer desk - I'm not praying to my computer and I'm certainly not worshiping my computer, it's just that maybe I've got a load of paperwork or something on my desk chair and don't feel like moving it. Sometimes I kneel at my bedside as I read on my tablet. I'm not worshiping the bed, nor am I worshiping the tablet (nor am I praying to either), I'm just choosing a comfortable position to read. If you took a picture of me kneeling before my tablet and posted it on the internet maybe you could convince people that tablets were evil because this guy shown here (me) is clearly worshiping his.

Was your TV designed for the express purpose of bowing and praying to something other than God?
If I walk into the St Paul Cathedral, I find a shrine set aside to venerate Mary. I find another shrine for Paul. I then find a pantheon of shrines to others, which the Roman denomination has set up for parishioners to invoke as a talisman and provider of mystical benefits. Can you justify this?

 

[Albion]

Here's my (evidently unique and rebuked) perspective.....


1. Among the MANY bold, sweeping, flaming accusations here is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." Of course, nothing has been offered to substantiate this. There is at least one denomination known to me that permits Christians to request those living in heaven to pray to God for them, but that's a whole other enchilada.

No, it isn't. You're just using two different wordings in order to say the same thing.

 

[Josiah]

No, it isn't. You're just using two different wordings in order to say the same thing.

No. They are ENTIRELY different. Confessional Lutheran asking us to pray to God for his grandmother is NOT the same thing as his praying TO us to answer the prayer. He wants us to pray TO God with him for his grandmother. And Confessional Lutheran very likely does NOT consider us or God to be dead.


See posts 57 and 62.




,

 

[Albion]

No. They are ENTIRELY different. Confessional Lutheran asking us to pray to God for his grandmother is NOT the same thing as his praying TO us to answer the prayer.

Huh? Who does that?

He wants us to pray TO God with him for his grandmother. And Confessional Lutheran very likely does NOT consider us or God to be dead.

What does any of that have to do with praying to the dead, or as you preferred to word it, "requesting those living in heaven ...?"

I hold that it IS wrong to pray TO anything or anyone anywhere other than God (whether such is living on earth or more fully living in heaven is irrelevant.....). I've said this repeatedly.

For me, the problem is that you've also said the opposite. Perhaps you were putting yourself in the place of your opponent in order to make a point. By now, I just do not know.

 

[tango]

If it's saints we are still talking about, I don't think there is any distinction, but I suspect that I'm missing the point you want to make.

There is still a distinction. If I were to ask my late mother to pray for me (believing she is in heaven, having died in Christ) that is a very different proposition to praying to my late mother as if she were God.

Wait a moment. IF the person is in the afterlife--that's where this all began--then it is wrong. And if that saint is being asked to pray for you, you are asking him to act as an intermediary with God, not just join you in prayer. That is exactly what the RCC, for example, teaches about praying to the dead and it's what almost everyone who prays to some saint understands.

And I think the key question people are trying to get answered here is why it is wrong to ask a deceased person to pray. I don't think anybody in this thread has disputed the errancy of praying to a deceased human but if you want to widen the net to say that it is wrong to ask a deceased Christian to petition God on our behalf you need to demonstrate why.

No. It's a euphemism for praying. The assertions that were made earlier in the thread are now being watered down.

The original assertion seemed to be a generic question based on allegation. Perhaps some denominations do encourage praying to the dead in a way we consider inappropriate but it appears nobody in this thread does. On that basis I see two ways the thread would develop. Either nobody would respond at all (or there would be a few responses saying little more than "no idea, we don't do that in my church"), or people would ask about the underlying allegations. Hence the way the discussion has gone, including Josiah's comments about whether people are praying to the dead or asking the dead to pray (and drawing a distinction between those who died in Christ and those who did not), and my comments about whether people on their knees are necessarily worshiping the object that happens to be in front of them.

With regard to the latter point, when I decided it was time to stop fighting God I went to a nearby church (it was unlocked, and unused given the time of day mid-week) and knelt at the railing before the altar to pray. I hope I didn't accidentally dedicate my life to the altar.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Was your TV designed for the express purpose of bowing and praying to something other than God?
If I walk into the St Paul Cathedral, I find a shrine set aside to venerate Mary. I find another shrine for Paul. I then find a pantheon of shrines to others, which the Roman denomination has set up for parishioners to invoke as a talisman and provider of mystical benefits. Can you justify this?

Good point. Perhaps the point of the OP?
As an aside, let's take (for example) my avatar. If I were to be walking along this garden path, and come across this statue and be "moved" by it - enough to offer thanks to Christ for his sacrifice for me - is the movement and thanks directed to the statue holding a cat, or to Christ? If to the statue, then we have a problem. The statue can do nothing for me. If to Christ, then the statue has served as a reminder of where my true worship should be.

 

[Albion]

Perhaps we need to decide if these shrines are indeed set up in order to provide mystical benefits and be invoked as a talisman.

 

[Albion]

There is still a distinction. If I were to ask my late mother to pray for me (believing she is in heaven, having died in Christ) that is a very different proposition to praying to my late mother as if she were God.

I see. And that worshipping idea did come up along the way.

I would say that both are wrong, but I will agree that they are wrong in different ways. It is also complicated by the fact that the wording of prayers to the saints varies widely from just asking to join in prayer to the more common form where formal prayers attribute standing to the saint to get through to God in a way we are less likely to be able to do.

And I think the key question people are trying to get answered here is why it is wrong to ask a deceased person to pray. I don't think anybody in this thread has disputed the errancy of praying to a deceased human but if you want to widen the net to say that it is wrong to ask a deceased Christian to petition God on our behalf you need to demonstrate why.

By now I don't really care what any of you do. LOL But I believe, as does my church, that it is wrong to PRAY to anyone but God. I guess I thought that the mainly traditional Christians here who seem to predominate in the postings belong to churches that hold the same view. Right now, I do not actually know if Confessional Lutherans, for example, think that praying to the dead is a proper practice. I never did before.

 

[Josiah]

Huh? Who does that?

Friend, here is the tidbit from my post you chose to isolate and respond to:

1. Among the MANY bold, sweeping, flaming accusations here is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." Of course, nothing has been offered to substantiate this. There is at least one denomination known to me that permits Christians to request those living in heaven to pray to God for them, but that's a whole other enchilada

.

To which you retorted,

No, it isn't. You're just using two different wordings in order to say the same thing.

Your position being "dogmatically teaching us all to pray TO the DEAD is exactly the same thing as Confessional Lutheran asking us here at CH to pray to God for his grandmother."

I disagreed. I said they they every different things. You made the claim they are the same thing, I begged to differ.


And remember: One of the MANY dogmatic accusations MennoSota has made this thread all about is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" all to "pray TO the DEAD."

For me, the problem is that you've also said the opposite. Perhaps you were putting yourself in the place of your opponent in order to make a point. By now, I just do not know.

Please read post # 57 and 62. Try this, too: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686


It was made abundantly clear in 57 and 62 here. If you've read those, then I am entirely puzzled as to what alludes you or why in the world you would think I'm saying the "exact opposite" of whatever it is you think I'm saying the opposite of.... Yes, I disagreed with you when you claim that a denomination dogmatically teaching that all are to pray to the dead is exacly the same thing as Confessional Lutheran asking us to join him in praying to God for his grandmother..... I disagree that he likely sees us as dead..... but still, you're continuing to loose me, Albion. I'm TRULY lost and amazed by your continued disagreement with me and siding the the premises of this thread and MennoSotas (to me flaming and silly accusations) many points here. Try reading posts 57 and 62. All of them (yeah, they are kind of long). Maybe again. If something isn't clear, ask me.


To a different topic but maybe more constructive: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686




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[Albion]

Your position being "dogmatically teaching us all to pray TO the DEAD is exactly the same thing as Confessional Lutheran asking us here at CH to pray to God for his grandmother."

For the life of me, I cannot find where I wrote that. You will have to direct me if I am to give any reply.

I disagreed. I said they they every different things. You made the claim they are the same thing, I begged to differ.


And remember: One of the MANY dogmatic accusations MennoSota has made this thread all about is that there are at least two denominations that "dogmatically teach" all to "pray TO the DEAD."

I've seen you react to that statement, but what are the two denominations? EO and RC? If so, that would be correct.

 

[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]






Respectfully friend, no, it is not.


The issues are...

1. If one respects a person or bows to someone or something, by that action, that person or object becomes the Lord God. That when the Brits bow to the Queen, they make her an Idol and God. I disagree. Tango has written effectively on this but MennoSota has defended his pov.

2. That when Christians die, they are just eternally died (just as those in hell) - there is no after LIFE. Indeed, that those who physically died are now demons and devils - thus the prohibition to speak with demons applies. Of course, this makes Jesus wrong in His promises and makes Jesus a sinner in Luke 9:28-36.

3. Four times now, I have stated I don't do this and don't defend the practice. Tango has posted (repeatedly) the same thing. That's not the issue. The issues are the two premises here: Those in heaven are just eternally DEAD (indeed, demons) which means Jesus was wrong in His promises, and that it is expressly forbidden to address them which means Jesus is a sinner because He did exactly that.

4. The statement that there are at least 2 denominations that "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD." I think that's a lie. And the reality that MennoSota has not even attempted to defend his accusations conveys to me maybe he knows it's a lie. As I posted, we have enough trouble in these ecumenical discussions without people knowingly lying. Do you disagree?







... although Jesus did. Did He sin?


I agree with you. I just don't agree that what we find (or don't find) in the examples of things illustrated in the Bible is the norma normans.... if it was, we couldn't be posting on the internet, could we? I reject the premise that just because we don't see something expressly illustrated in the Bible, it is thus forbidden and sinful to do it. Frankly, I hear that rubric all the time - often by people posting it on the internet, folks where probably 90% of what they do on a Sunday morning in church is nowhere illustrated in the Bible. TYPICALLY, people are apt to say that if JESUS did something, it must be okay - yet Jesus communicated with one who was dead and buried but some will dogmatically insist it is wrong to do that because it's no where illustrated as being done in the Bible.


Thank you.


- Josiah



.

I'm a little offended that you have to even ask if I believe Jesus is the sinless Son of God. No, I don't believe Jesus sinned at all. I would think you would know that by now about me. Please don't insult me like that again.

Furthermore, I didn't say nor have I ever said that those who die saved or not become demons. Never said that. Demons are fallen angels and were never people.

I don't know which two denominations may be referred to as specifically teaching that you should pray to the dead. I believe from what I have heard that some Catholics pray to Mary and other saints who have died. That is talking to the dead and I believe meets the criteria of the verses I cited in an early post about not communicating with the dead. We don't need to communicate with dead persons when we have Jesus who is at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. It isn't necessary.

On your early comment, if a person bows to someone that is simply showing respect and not necessarily worship.

I believe I clearly made my points, so I am through with this conversation for me. Peace

 

[Josiah]

I've seen you react to that statement, but what are the two denominations? EO and RC? If so, that would be correct.

MennoSota has repeatedly refuse to say which are these "denominations" But it's repeated in the title, in the opening post, and on and one - the premise of the thread.

No. I've read (every carefully) EVERY ONE of the 2,865 statements in the 1994 Official Catholic Catechism.... I've read every single page of the over 800 page Handbook of the Catholic Church.... NOWHERE does it dogmatically teach that all are to pray TO the DEAD. In fact, my Catholic teachers taught me that to pray to ANY other than God is a "sin" (that's the word they used) and to pray to the DEAD is a "sin" (that's the word they used). So, if MennoSota and those supporting this thread and it's accusations think one these denominations is the RCC, then we're still waiting..... where does the RCC "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD?" As often is done with gossip, there is just a VAGUE (but enormously flaming) accusation - put out there over and over but never even an attempt to show it's true. I find this kind of thing something to be rebuked rather than defended.

Did you read post 57? Did you read post 62? Did you read the opening post I put up on prayer? IF so, what is unclear to you? What did I say that was a contradiction to other things I said? What has so incredibly "puzzled" you? I am entirely perplexed how you can say I said the exact opposite of what I have repeatedly posted....

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

Friend, don't accuse me of HORRIBLE things that you obviously COMPLETELY misunderstood... then insist you won't hear anything I say in reply.... Please don't say you are offended - then run disallowing any response from me....

I'm a little offended that you have to even ask if I believe Jesus is the sinless Son of God. No, I don't believe Jesus sinned at all. I would think you would know that by now about me. Please don't insult me like that again.

Please read it again. Here's my point: IF it is claimed (as has been repeatedly in this thread) that it is a sin to communicate with one who had died (that's the apologetic I'm discussing), then we have to consider Jesus who did exactly that in Luke 9:28-36. Since I'm sure you agree that Jesus DID communicate with one who had once died (the Bible exactly says that in Luke 9:30-31). That being the undeniable reality - Jesus communicated with one who had died - then LOGICALLY there are only two options: Either the claim that it is sinful to communicate with one who had died OR Jesus sinned. I did NOT say which you choose, I simply said those are the only two options. Unless the Bible is wrong in Luke 9:30-31. What other logical option is there? Follow me?

Furthermore, I didn't say nor have I ever said that those who die saved or not become demons. Never said that.

... and obviously, I never REMOTELY said YOU did. I said that's the premise here, the apologetic being discussed here, the apologetic I'm replying to: that the reason we cannot request those in heaven to pray to God with us is because those in heaven are DEAD - just as those in hell are. If you have read my posts, you KNOW I never remotely said YOU said that, only that that's the premise here, one of the apologetical arguments being used, the apologetic we're discussing (well,one of them)

Read post # 62 here. PLEASE, I humbly request, read each point carefully. You might want to read too http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686

Demons are fallen angels and were never people

I agree. One MORE reason why the premise of this thread is something I reject. The prohibition in the OT from consulting demons doesn't apply to Christians LIVING in Heaven. But the apologetic here is that we are forbidden to ask those Christians living in heaven from praying with us to God is that they are DEAD. Several (not just MennoSota) have made that argument. I believe that those in heaven are NOT demons or devils and that they ARE living, they HAVE life everlasting, they are enjoying the after LIFE.... I believe what JEsus said that Christians will LIVE even though they die.... that Jesus rose from the dead as the first-fruits of all who believe in him. I strongly, strongly suspect you FULLY agree with me and thus disagree with the premise of this thread. I suspect you and I are on the same page..... if you read what I've been saying vis-a-vis the many points MennoSota has made here that I'm responding to.

I believe from what I have heard that some Catholics pray to Mary and other saints who have died

1. Jesus spoke with Moses who had died. Was He wrong to do that? THAT IS A QUESTION not an accusation. I strongly, strongly suspect you'll say "NO!" and perhaps thus think about your position a bit...

2. I believe from what I heard that there was a baptist who murder his wife. Does that mean that ERGO there are at least two baptist denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to murder their wives? THAT IS A QUESTION, not an accusation..... I'm 100% sure how you will answer it..... and I'm hoping that your answer will give you pause regarding the premise here that there are at least two denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to pray TO the DEAD.

3. I was a Catholic. I can tell you I NEVER saw anyone pray TO Mary. And I was taught by more than one Catholic teacher that to do so is "sin" (that's the verbatim word they used). I don't deny there might be a Catholic somewhere who does that, but then there's probably a Catholic who killed his wife, too - it doesn't mean ERGO the denomination dogmatically taught him to kill his wife. Do you see my point? I have very carefully read and studied every one of the 2,865 points of the official Catholic Catechism and I can assure you - with absolute certainty - that NEVER does it dogmatically teach that all are to "pray to the dead." What we were taught is that it is permitted to request our LIVING brothers and sisters in heaven to pray with us. We were NOT told that that makes the prayers more efficious or likely to be heard or answered, but that those LIVING in heaven still love us and care about us and want to pray for us. Now, if you go here: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686 you find that in addition to the SIX times in this thread that I do not practice this, I do NOT encourage this, I do NOT promote this.... I think what is true is NOT what is claimed here: That there are two denominations which the opening poster refuses to identify which "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD."

4. Read post # 62. Read http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686 I think that these ecumenical discussions are hard enough without people flaming denominations (without naming them) then running away from supplying any substantiation for the claim. This kind of flaming should not be supported. I'd expect staff in particular to not support it.

5. IMO, I don't think we should boldly (but namelessly) flame entire denominations based on what I believe I have heard from some people. The accusation is that there are denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to pray TO the DEAD. I KNOW there are many points of gossip floating all over the 'net in all directions. It doesn't make them true, IMO. I believe that we here at CH (and that includes the Staff) should work to discourage flamming of whole denominations in this way and should encourage truthfulness as much as practical. Just my opinion.

That is talking to the dead and I believe meets the criteria of the verses I cited in an early post about not communicating with the dead.

I don't disagree with the verses, I disagree with the application of their prohibition to speaking with dead demonic spirits to Christians who are LIVING in HEAVEN. Such seems to logically mandate the claim made there: that Christians who die in the Lord are just DEAD like those in hell, and that Jesus sinned by communicating with one who had died. I think the application of those verses to Christians in Heaven enjoying LIFE everlasting is what is very questionable..... applying it to Moses and Jesus in Luke 9:28-36 is very questionable..... The verses you quoted are correct, they just don't apply to the LIVING in heaven. THAT'S our disagreement, it seems. And I'm asking you to consider the promises of Jesus about Christians and everlasting life.... and consider Jesus' conversation with Moses in Luke 9:28-36. I'm simply upholding and supporting the promises of Jesus and the sinlessness of Jesus. I STRONGLY suspect you do, too - which is why I'm puzzled that you are so strongly disagreeing with me.



Follow me? Better understand my pov now?



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

Friend, don't accuse me of HORRIBLE things that you obviously COMPLETELY misunderstood... then insist you won't hear anything I say in reply.... Please don't say you are offended - then run disallowing any response from me....







Please read it again. Here's my point: IF it is claimed (as has been repeatedly in this thread) that it is a sin to communicate with one who had died (that's the apologetic I'm discussing), then we have to consider Jesus who did exactly that in Luke 9:28-36. Since I'm sure you agree that Jesus DID communicate with one who had once died (the Bible exactly says that in Luke 9:30-31). That being the undeniable reality - Jesus communicated with one who had died - then LOGICALLY there are only two options: Either the claim that it is sinful to communicate with one who had died OR Jesus sinned. I did NOT say which you choose, I simply said those are the only two options. Unless the Bible is wrong in Luke 9:30-31. What other logical option is there? Follow me?






... and obviously, I never REMOTELY said YOU did. I said that's the premise here, the apologetic being discussed here, the apologetic I'm replying to: that the reason we cannot request those in heaven to pray to God with us is because those in heaven are DEAD - just as those in hell are. If you have read my posts, you KNOW I never remotely said YOU said that, only that that's the premise here, one of the apologetical arguments being used, the apologetic we're discussing (well,one of them)

Read post # 62 here. PLEASE, I humbly request, read each point carefully. You might want to read too http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686






I agree. One MORE reason why the premise of this thread is something I reject. The prohibition in the OT from consulting demons doesn't apply to Christians LIVING in Heaven. But the apologetic here is that we are forbidden to ask those Christians living in heaven from praying with us to God is that they are DEAD. Several (not just MennoSota) have made that argument. I believe that those in heaven are NOT demons or devils and that they ARE living, they HAVE life everlasting, they are enjoying the after LIFE.... I believe what JEsus said that Christians will LIVE even though they die.... that Jesus rose from the dead as the first-fruits of all who believe in him. I strongly, strongly suspect you FULLY agree with me and thus disagree with the premise of this thread. I suspect you and I are on the same page..... if you read what I've been saying vis-a-vis the many points MennoSota has made here that I'm responding to.







1. Jesus spoke with Moses who had died. Was He wrong to do that? THAT IS A QUESTION not an accusation. I strongly, strongly suspect you'll say "NO!" and perhaps thus think about your position a bit...

2. I believe from what I heard that there was a baptist who murder his wife. Does that mean that ERGO there are at least two baptist denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to murder their wives? THAT IS A QUESTION, not an accusation..... I'm 100% sure how you will answer it..... and I'm hoping that your answer will give you pause regarding the premise here that there are at least two denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to pray TO the DEAD.

3. I was a Catholic. I can tell you I NEVER saw anyone pray TO Mary. And I was taught by more than one Catholic teacher that to do so is "sin" (that's the verbatim word they used). I don't deny there might be a Catholic somewhere who does that, but then there's probably a Catholic who killed his wife, too - it doesn't mean ERGO the denomination dogmatically taught him to kill his wife. Do you see my point? I have very carefully read and studied every one of the 2,865 points of the official Catholic Catechism and I can assure you - with absolute certainty - that NEVER does it dogmatically teach that all are to "pray to the dead." What we were taught is that it is permitted to request our LIVING brothers and sisters in heaven to pray with us. We were NOT told that that makes the prayers more efficious or likely to be heard or answered, but that those LIVING in heaven still love us and care about us and want to pray for us. Now, if you go here: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686 you find that in addition to the SIX times in this thread that I do not practice this, I do NOT encourage this, I do NOT promote this.... I think what is true is NOT what is claimed here: That there are two denominations which the opening poster refuses to identify which "dogmatically teach" that all are to "pray TO the DEAD."

4. Read post # 62. Read http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5196-Aking-Loved-Ones-to-Pray-for-Us&p=127686#post127686 I think that these ecumenical discussions are hard enough without people flaming denominations (without naming them) then running away from supplying any substantiation for the claim. This kind of flaming should not be supported. I'd expect staff in particular to not support it.

5. IMO, I don't think we should boldly (but namelessly) flame entire denominations based on what I believe I have heard from some people. The accusation is that there are denominations that dogmatically teach that all are to pray TO the DEAD. I KNOW there are many points of gossip floating all over the 'net in all directions. It doesn't make them true, IMO. I believe that we here at CH (and that includes the Staff) should work to discourage flamming of whole denominations in this way and should encourage truthfulness as much as practical. Just my opinion.






I don't disagree with the verses, I disagree with the application of their prohibition to speaking with dead demonic spirits to Christians who are LIVING in HEAVEN. Such seems to logically mandate the claim made there: that Christians who die in the Lord are just DEAD like those in hell, and that Jesus sinned by communicating with one who had died. I think the application of those verses to Christians in Heaven enjoying LIFE everlasting is what is very questionable..... applying it to Moses and Jesus in Luke 9:28-36 is very questionable..... The verses you quoted are correct, they just don't apply to the LIVING in heaven. THAT'S our disagreement, it seems. And I'm asking you to consider the promises of Jesus about Christians and everlasting life.... and consider Jesus' conversation with Moses in Luke 9:28-36. I'm simply upholding and supporting the promises of Jesus and the sinlessness of Jesus. I STRONGLY suspect you do, too - which is why I'm puzzled that you are so strongly disagreeing with me.



Follow me? Better understand my pov now?



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

Just as a side note I will tell you that these days I am having a problem with fatigue and don't have the energy to talk in circles. When I perceive myself as doing so I am going to cut that conversation short after I have made my point. It is not running from the issues. It is that I don't have the energy to talk in circles and be unproductive. I don't enjoy that and it has felt that there is a lot of misunderstanding in this thread and others. In fact, it is only my opinion, that sometimes these conversations need to end earlier than they do. At some point, it becomes completely unproductive. My job is not to convince you of my point of view. Nor do you have to worry about a stranger on the internet having an opinion that you don't share.

The transfiguration was a unique event in the life of Jesus and his disciples. He didn't experience this everyday, nor did the disciples. I suspect the whole point of this was not to have a conversation with Moses or Elijah (I have always wondered how the author knew that that is who they were, did they call each other by name?). The whole point was to strengthen the faith of the three closest disciples of Jesus because they were his leaders.

I hope that I am wrong about Catholics being taught to pray to Mary and others. It is what I have long heard about Catholics. Mary, while living in heaven, has died and her bones along with others saints are in the ground somewhere. That is what consulting with the dead mean. It means consulting with those who have died, meaning physical death. Consutling with the dead in this case means exactly what it says, consulting with those who have physically died. While their soul may live on in heaven, it is not their role to be an intermediate for us to God in prayer

I don't believe we can take that one conversation on the mountaintop, that happened during a unique period of Jesus life and apply it to all situations. Hope that helps

 

[tango]

Was your TV designed for the express purpose of bowing and praying to something other than God?
If I walk into the St Paul Cathedral, I find a shrine set aside to venerate Mary. I find another shrine for Paul. I then find a pantheon of shrines to others, which the Roman denomination has set up for parishioners to invoke as a talisman and provider of mystical benefits. Can you justify this?

No, clearly my TV was not made to be something that was worshiped. Are statues any more objects intended to be worshiped, or are they objects intended to focus our mind on the God that is worthy of worship?

Are your shrines really there to encourage worship, or to remind people of the one who should be worshiped?

 

[tango]

I see. And that worshipping idea did come up along the way.

Yes, the concept of worship is certainly a valid question to ask but to assume that because somebody is kneeling before an inanimate object it must follow that they are worshiping the inanimate object risks missing the point entirely. It is possible that someone is worshiping the object; it is also possible that they are kneeling before God and are kneeling at some kind of altar to God; it is equally possible that they are kneeling before God and happen to be facing an object. To assume which of those applies to someone seems pointless at best and unhelpful at worst.

I would say that both are wrong, but I will agree that they are wrong in different ways. It is also complicated by the fact that the wording of prayers to the saints varies widely from just asking to join in prayer to the more common form where formal prayers attribute standing to the saint to get through to God in a way we are less likely to be able to do.

The latter is definitely wrong, I don't think anybody is disputing that. Whether or not the former is wrong is part of the topic of the discussion - to believe it is wrong is certainly a valid opinion but something to support the opinion would be useful.

By now I don't really care what any of you do. LOL But I believe, as does my church, that it is wrong to PRAY to anyone but God. I guess I thought that the mainly traditional Christians here who seem to predominate in the postings belong to churches that hold the same view. Right now, I do not actually know if Confessional Lutherans, for example, think that praying to the dead is a proper practice. I never did before.

I'm not aware of anyone, in this thread at least, even attempting to justify praying to the dead, just the distinction between praying to those who have died and asking those who have died to pray for us. For what it's worth, my view is that if my late mother can see and hear me then she can figure out for herself how best to pray for me, and if she can neither see nor hear me then there's little point asking her to pray because she won't know about it.

 

[Josiah]

I hope that I am wrong about Catholics being taught to pray to Mary and others. It is what I have long heard about Catholics.

... until one is shown that it is true, it remains unknown (technically gossip) and IMO should not be spread as dogmatic fact to flame unnamed denominations - especially not with the support of websites and their staff.

... and even if that is shown to be true, that would only mean that there are Catholics among the 1.2 billion that do that; it would be entirely unrelated to the point that the RC Denomination dogmatically teaches that all are to pray TO the DEAD.

Do we agree on this?

I don't believe we can take that one conversation on the mountaintop, that happened during a unique period of Jesus life and apply it to all situations. Hope that helps

Understood; but I find it impossible to make as the apologetic that while Jesus DID converse with one who had died, it nonetheless is a sin. Where ever it happened or how often it happened. I have a problem with the nonetheless emphasis, indeed pinning the whole apologetic on that nonetheless point. Understand my perspective?


I hope your feeling offended as been resolved.


- Josiah




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[MennoSota]

No, clearly my TV was not made to be something that was worshiped. Are statues any more objects intended to be worshiped, or are they objects intended to focus our mind on the God that is worthy of worship?

Are your shrines really there to encourage worship, or to remind people of the one who should be worshiped?

Considering their are candles everywhere and the focus is on the statue, I expect the focus is on the statue and the thing it represents.
I am reminded of the Japanese Little League team that bows to the statue shrine in center field after each game. Shinto beliefs and all. Sadly the Roman church seems no different.