Why should I let you into my heaven, asks God. How do you reply?

[BruceLeiter]

You shouldn't.

But Jesus saved me.

Hallelujah! Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
~1Peter1:3-9~

I pray this to be for EVERY member and visitor here...May God bless you with His love and grace and salvation in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

And I pray for the same blessings in your life, @user1234!

 

[MoreCoffee]

the 2017 thread is resurrected! Praise persistence.

 

[Lamb]

the 2017 thread is resurrected! Praise persistence.

And I still point to Jesus as to the reason why

 

[MoreCoffee]

And I still point to Jesus as to the reason why

Fair enough.

I too point to Jesus, but not as a substitute for my own person; rather, I entrust myself to the mercy He won for us in His Passion, knowing that the Father welcomes me because I am united to Christ in faith, baptism, and a life being transformed by His grace, so that what God crowns in me is truly His own gift.

 

[Lamb]

Fair enough.

I too point to Jesus, but not as a substitute for my own person; rather, I entrust myself to the mercy He won for us in His Passion, knowing that the Father welcomes me because I am united to Christ in faith, baptism, and a life being transformed by His grace, so that what God crowns in me is truly His own gift.

Jesus most certainly is our substitute because His death and resurrection is why we have salvation. Your life being transformed is only the result of what HE accomplished.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus most certainly is our substitute because His death and resurrection is why we have salvation. Your life being transformed is only the result of what HE accomplished.

Can you show me a verse or verses that say that Jesus is "our substitute"?

Scripture teaches that Christ truly died “for us” in a vicarious and redemptive way, but it nowhere teaches the specifically Lutheran claim that our transformation is merely a passive result of His work; rather, the Bible consistently presents salvation as the fruit of Christ’s atonement received through faith, baptism, and our real cooperation with grace, so that the holiness required to see God is both God’s gift and something we must freely live out.

Scripture clearly teaches that Christ died “for us” — in our place.

This is the part Catholics and Lutherans both affirm, though we articulate it differently.
Examples:

• Isaiah 53:5 — “He was wounded for our transgressions; crushed for our iniquities.”
• 1 Peter 3:18 — “Christ also suffered for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous.”
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 — “He made Him to be sin for us.”

These teach substitution in the sense of vicarious atonement, which Catholic doctrine fully accepts.

There is no verse that says sanctification is only a result of justification, nor that human cooperation with grace is excluded. That is a Lutheran theological inference, not a biblical statement.

Consider these passages:

• Philippians 2:12–13 — “Work out your salvation… for God is at work in you.” (Both divine action and human cooperation.)
• James 2:24 — “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Directly contradicts the Lutheran formula.)
• Hebrews 12:14 — “Strive for… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” (Holiness is not merely a result; it is a condition.)
• Romans 2:6–7 — God “will repay each according to his works… to those who persevere in doing good, eternal life.” (Final judgement includes our lived transformation.)
• John 15:1–10 — Remaining in Christ requires ongoing obedience; fruitlessness leads to being “cut off.” (Union with Christ is not a passive consequence.)

​

 

[Frankj]

Can you show me a verse or verses that say that Jesus is "our substitute"?

Scripture teaches that Christ truly died “for us” in a vicarious and redemptive way, but it nowhere teaches the specifically Lutheran claim that our transformation is merely a passive result of His work; rather, the Bible consistently presents salvation as the fruit of Christ’s atonement received through faith, baptism, and our real cooperation with grace, so that the holiness required to see God is both God’s gift and something we must freely live out.

Scripture clearly teaches that Christ died “for us” — in our place.

This is the part Catholics and Lutherans both affirm, though we articulate it differently.
Examples:

• Isaiah 53:5 — “He was wounded for our transgressions; crushed for our iniquities.”
• 1 Peter 3:18 — “Christ also suffered for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous.”
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 — “He made Him to be sin for us.”

These teach substitution in the sense of vicarious atonement, which Catholic doctrine fully accepts.

There is no verse that says sanctification is only a result of justification, nor that human cooperation with grace is excluded. That is a Lutheran theological inference, not a biblical statement.

Consider these passages:

• Philippians 2:12–13 — “Work out your salvation… for God is at work in you.” (Both divine action and human cooperation.)
• James 2:24 — “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Directly contradicts the Lutheran formula.)
• Hebrews 12:14 — “Strive for… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” (Holiness is not merely a result; it is a condition.)
• Romans 2:6–7 — God “will repay each according to his works… to those who persevere in doing good, eternal life.” (Final judgement includes our lived transformation.)
• John 15:1–10 — Remaining in Christ requires ongoing obedience; fruitlessness leads to being “cut off.” (Union with Christ is not a passive consequence.)

​

What is the Catholic view of the Jewish (God mandated) practice of the sacrifice to atone for sins in relation to Jesus being called lamb of God and his crucifixion?

I'm thinking that the original sacrifice was a substitution of a sacrificial animal in place of the sinner as well as the sinning of the nation of Israel as a whole, but maybe I see it differently than others.

FWIW, In my view this sacrifice is necessary to make 'the wage of sin is death' a truth with the sacrificed animal receiving that wage in place of the sinner himself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is the Catholic view of the Jewish (God mandated) practice of the sacrifice to atone for sins in relation to Jesus being called lamb of God and his crucifixion?

I'm thinking that the original sacrifice was a substitution of a sacrificial animal in place of the sinner as well as the sinning of the nation of Israel as a whole, but maybe I see it differently than others.

FWIW, In my view this sacrifice is necessary to make 'the wage of sin is death' a truth with the sacrificed animal receiving that wage in place of the sinner himself.

1. What the Old Testament sacrifices were really doing
In Catholic theology, the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant *did* involve substitution, but not in the strict “the animal receives the exact punishment due to the sinner” sense.

The Church teaches that:

• The blood of animals **could not** truly take away sins (cf. Hebrews 10:4).
• These sacrifices were **real**, **God‑mandated**, and **efficacious**, but only in a **symbolic and anticipatory** way.
• They expressed repentance, covenant loyalty, and the desire for reconciliation.
• Their power came not from the animal itself, but from the future sacrifice of Christ, which they pointed toward.

So yes, they involved substitution — but more as **ritual representation** than literal transfer of guilt.

2. Why Jesus is called the “Lamb of God”
When John the Baptist calls Jesus *“the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”*, he’s drawing together several Old Testament threads:

• **The Passover lamb**, whose blood saved Israel.
• **The daily Temple lambs**, offered morning and evening.
• **The sin‑offering lambs**, offered for purification.
• **The Suffering Servant** in Isaiah 53, “like a lamb led to the slaughter”.

Catholic theology sees Jesus as the **fulfilment** of all these types — not just one of them.

3. How Christ’s sacrifice differs from animal sacrifice
Here’s the key Catholic point:

Animal sacrifices symbolised atonement.
Christ’s sacrifice accomplishes atonement.

The Catechism puts it this way: Christ’s death is:

• **once for all** (Hebrews 10:10)
• **perfect** and **sufficient**
• offered by a **divine person** in a **human nature**
• an act of **obedient love**, not simply a legal transaction

So while the Old Covenant sacrifices were shadows, Christ is the reality they were pointing toward.

4. About “the wages of sin is death”
You’re right that sin leads to death — spiritually and physically. But Catholic theology doesn’t say that the animal “receives the wage” in the strict sense. Instead:

• The animal’s death **symbolises** what sin deserves.
• Christ’s death **actually bears** the consequence of sin — not as a punishment inflicted by the Father, but as Christ freely entering into the human condition of suffering and death caused by sin.

The Church avoids the idea that the Father “punishes” the Son. Instead, Christ offers Himself in love, and the Father accepts that offering.

5. So how does substitution work in Catholic theology?
Catholicism affirms **substitution**, but not **penal substitution** in the strict Protestant sense.

Christ:

• stands in our place
• offers Himself on our behalf
• bears the consequences of sin
• reconciles us to the Father

But He does this as a **loving self‑offering**, not as a victim of divine wrath.

[Composed with the help of Microsoft Copilot, seriously altered by me]

 

[Lamb]

Can you show me a verse or verses that say that Jesus is "our substitute"?

​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Notice how it says the righteous for the unrighteous. I'm the unrighteous and He is the righteous. He brings me to God.

The concept is right there.

 

[MoreCoffee]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Notice how it says the righteous for the unrighteous. I'm the unrighteous and He is the righteous. He brings me to God.

The concept is right there.

I notice that it says, the righteous for the unrighteous, and that it does not say, the righteous in the place of the unrighteous. I take "for" to be a synonym for "on behalf of" in this verse in its context. It isn't substitution. It's reconciling love.

 

[Lamb]

I notice that it says, the righteous for the unrighteous, and that it does not say, the righteous in the place of the unrighteous. I take "for" to be a synonym for "on behalf of" in this verse in its context. It isn't substitution. It's reconciling love.

On behalf of also means that it's because of Him, which means that we didn't need to die because He did. Do you think you still need to die for your sins?

 

[MoreCoffee]

On behalf of also means that it's because of Him, which means that we didn't need to die because He did. Do you think you still need to die for your sins?

I said we don't believe that in a previous post. #48

 

[Lamb]

1. What the Old Testament sacrifices were really doing
In Catholic theology, the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant *did* involve substitution, but not in the strict “the animal receives the exact punishment due to the sinner” sense.

The Church teaches that:

• The blood of animals **could not** truly take away sins (cf. Hebrews 10:4).
• These sacrifices were **real**, **God‑mandated**, and **efficacious**, but only in a **symbolic and anticipatory** way.
• They expressed repentance, covenant loyalty, and the desire for reconciliation.
• Their power came not from the animal itself, but from the future sacrifice of Christ, which they pointed toward.

So yes, they involved substitution — but more as **ritual representation** than literal transfer of guilt.

2. Why Jesus is called the “Lamb of God”
When John the Baptist calls Jesus *“the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”*, he’s drawing together several Old Testament threads:

• **The Passover lamb**, whose blood saved Israel.
• **The daily Temple lambs**, offered morning and evening.
• **The sin‑offering lambs**, offered for purification.
• **The Suffering Servant** in Isaiah 53, “like a lamb led to the slaughter”.

Catholic theology sees Jesus as the **fulfilment** of all these types — not just one of them.

3. How Christ’s sacrifice differs from animal sacrifice
Here’s the key Catholic point:

Animal sacrifices symbolised atonement.
Christ’s sacrifice accomplishes atonement.

The Catechism puts it this way: Christ’s death is:

• **once for all** (Hebrews 10:10)
• **perfect** and **sufficient**
• offered by a **divine person** in a **human nature**
• an act of **obedient love**, not simply a legal transaction

So while the Old Covenant sacrifices were shadows, Christ is the reality they were pointing toward.

4. About “the wages of sin is death”
You’re right that sin leads to death — spiritually and physically. But Catholic theology doesn’t say that the animal “receives the wage” in the strict sense. Instead:

• The animal’s death **symbolises** what sin deserves.
• Christ’s death **actually bears** the consequence of sin — not as a punishment inflicted by the Father, but as Christ freely entering into the human condition of suffering and death caused by sin.

The Church avoids the idea that the Father “punishes” the Son. Instead, Christ offers Himself in love, and the Father accepts that offering.

5. So how does substitution work in Catholic theology?
Catholicism affirms **substitution**, but not **penal substitution** in the strict Protestant sense.

Christ:

• stands in our place
• offers Himself on our behalf
• bears the consequences of sin
• reconciles us to the Father

But He does this as a **loving self‑offering**, not as a victim of divine wrath.

[Composed with the help of Microsoft Copilot, seriously altered by me]

Your post #48 does say that Christ is our substitute.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your post #48 does say that Christ is our substitute.

From a Catholic dogmatic perspective, Christ is our substitute in the precise sense that He freely offers Himself in our place as the one true sacrificial victim whose obedient self‑offering to the Father accomplishes what the Old Covenant sacrifices only prefigured: He bears the consequences of sin by entering death, offers satisfaction on our behalf, and reconciles humanity to God, yet not as one punished instead of us but as the New Adam who represents us, acts for us, and merits for us the grace by which we are justified and sanctified (CCC 599–618).

 

[Lamb]

From a Catholic dogmatic perspective, Christ is our substitute in the precise sense that He freely offers Himself in our place as the one true sacrificial victim whose obedient self‑offering to the Father accomplishes what the Old Covenant sacrifices only prefigured: He bears the consequences of sin by entering death, offers satisfaction on our behalf, and reconciles humanity to God, yet not as one punished instead of us but as the New Adam who represents us, acts for us, and merits for us the grace by which we are justified and sanctified (CCC 599–618).

Isaiah 53:5

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isaiah 53:5

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Same thing applies. "for us" as opposed to "instead of".

 

[Lamb]

Same thing applies. "for us" as opposed to "instead of".

A substitute is still a substitute

 

[MoreCoffee]

A substitute is still a substitute

I have warm feeling about our exchanges but we each have stated our positions and that is as far as we can go, it seems to me.

Thanks.

And God be with us all.

 

[lost trails again]

`

Many Christians feel that there is a great division between the Catholic and Non Catholic faith, i believe one of the greatest challenges facing the Christian who are not Catholic is the situation involving the Sainthood Canonization of Rome.

As Christians who are not of the Catholic faith we see the reality that Roman Catholics have had thousands of Saints that have been “ PRE JUDGED “ here on earth and Catholic teaching declares that these Saints are ALREADY CLAIMED to be in Heaven ( RIGHT NOW ) - and Catholics are directly praying to thousands of these saints.

Thousands of Catholic Saints are already Pre - Judged by the Roman Catholic judgment and are judged to have been ascended up into heaven, even before the great judgment day, even before the resurrection an 2nd coming, Catholics believe that these Canonized Saints are hearing and receiving prayers.

So Basically what we are NOTICING is that Catholics have already Decided and JUDGED their thousands of souls ...............AS Heaven Bound Soul, Catholics, they emulate the role of acting as Judge and Jury ) and have already Pre -Judged Catholic saints,, before Judgment day.

The Roman Catholic Judgment day is a real time, live show = here on Earth, pre Judging people's souls and deciding - who is and who is NOT going to heaven.

Notice that - There are No NON CATHOLIC Saints. …..

In 2000 years of Roman Catholicism, There has never been a single non Catholic Saint and there Will be NON Catholic saints. - never, Catholics do not allow Non-Catholics to enter into heaven through this process. -

WHY ? Catholic teaching tells us why.

'Heretics “ those who are NOT MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH “ or who “ DO NOT HOLD TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE “ worship a GOD WHO IS A LIAR, and a Christ who is a liar.'
St. Augustine, (quoted in 'Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca', by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).


All OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Jews or heretics CANNOT SHARE IN ETERNAL life and will GO INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS THEY ARE JOINED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Pope Eugenius I've, in 'Bull of Union with the Copts', Council of Florence, Session 11, on February 4, 1442..


MISGUIDED PEOPLE attempt TO PERSUADE themselves & others THAT MEN ARE NOT SAVED ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.'
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (On Mixed Marriages), Encyclical promulgated on May 27, 1832, #2.


'HERETICS do NOT have THE SAME GOD, the SAME CHRIST as CATHOLICS.'
Tertullian: (Patrolo-giae Cursus Completus: Series Graca, Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 1:1216)


Remember after 2000 years of Catholicism - there has never been a Non - Catholic Saint, Catholics do not allow Non-Catholics to enter into their heaven. And Non - Catholic Christians DO NOT SERVE THE SAME GOD AS CATHOLICS - this is the historical teaching of the Roman Catholic Church

In conclusion as Non – Catholics - we are claiming that we are Christians -

Catholic teaching demands that we do not serve the same God as Catholics Catholic teaching demands that we are serving a god who is an evil liar and not the true god. Catholic teaching demands that Christians outside the catholic church, - - cannot share in eternal life and that we will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they we are joined to the catholic church


Yet Catholic teaching demands that Muslims are serving " the true God " - Muslims are serving the God of the Roman Catholic, - Muslims are serving the same exact God as Catholics.

For many of us, Christians, we whom are not Roman Catholic ourselves, we simply do not realize the depth and scope of how this seems so impossible to meet the challenge of communicating with eternal contradiction, opposition and dissimilarity,

our challenge, is not lack of understanding and lack of knowledge about the Catholic teaching but our challenge is the eternal distance from reality and a lack basic truth and genuine honesty that is everything we see in the Catholic teaching.

The more we know about Catholic teaching, the further we are pushed away from the orbit of reality, a never ending system of circular reasoning that folds in upon itself designed to cancel out and omit basic principles of God’s word.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In 2000 years of Roman Catholicism

This is the MAGA hat of non-Catholicism. "Roman Catholicism"; as Gollum might say "we hateses it don't we precious? Yes my love, we hateses it!" Admittedly that's a caricature but it isn't so far from your position, eh?