What early Christians believed about life after death

[Andrew]

Sheol is where we (as souls) all go after death, this has always been the belief, now there is a 'paradise' aka "Abrahams bosom" for the righteous past, present and future... and there is a gulf separating it from the lower parts of hades "Tartarus" which is where the unrighteous dwell past, present and future.
For the righteous this will be a joyful time with loved ones and all the righteous from times past, they will be escorted there by angels and in the presence of the Lord in Heaven, for the unrighteous however, it will be a place of torment and fear as they are in the presence of "Gehenna" aka "Lake of fire" (which is where the devil and his angels are reserved for).. feeling it's heat and knowing their doom, they are 'carried' away there (Tartarus) by the angels... ( where there will be much gnashing of teeth and wailing)...
We will all be conscious and aware after death.
All in all it's basically an intermediate waiting room and was known by early Christians as "the realm of the dead".
Will all "sleep" there? According to scripture no, for when the day comes the dead will be resurrected and the church will be raptured in a twinkling of an eye, they will be transformed, actually all will be transformed, those both good and bad in hades will be resurrected bodily for the judgment.
So when Jesus told the repented thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise" it was very literal for Jesus descended into Hades that very day... so you see the difference between Heaven and Hades? The righteous will join Jesus in Heaven as their final destination, and the unrighteous will join the devil and his angels in Gehenna "Lake of Fire"... regardless we all go to sheol first (unless you are alive on Earth during Christ's return), paradise for the righteous, but for many it will be a place of sorrow.
The misunderstanding comes from the Church of Rome, the dogma of "Purgatory" appeared and the KJV replaced Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, with the universal english word "Hell" and thus overtime we have accepted that we go either go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell after death (or Purgatory), that we are personally judged at that very moment we open our eyes from death, this is not true and it contradicts scripture.
This intermediate place known as "Hades" will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), this is the second death for the unrighteous, the righteous will join Gods heavenly Kingdom in Heaven for all Eternity.

When we die, the body and soul separate, the body returns to the Earth, and the soul enters into "Sheol" (Paradise/Abraham's bosom for the righteous...Tartarus for the unrighteous)
Jesus did not 'descend' into Heaven, that makes no sense, he descended into the "heart of the Earth" and preached his kingdom and message while in "sheol", this is exactly where he said he would go for three days, not "Heaven" nor the Lake of Fire...

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not based on fiction, Daniel tells us also that he is certain that God will not leave his soul in sheol.
If I had a PC I would have presented this differently, with passages from scriptures and quotes from our early church fathers but because I am typing this from my tiny phone I will allow our conversation to grow and we can share scripture and see where it leads.
Here are some videos that go into great lengths of detail if you are interested.
https://youtu.be/GhKUU4waDTI
https://youtu.be/QGs7ZOVHdFw


Thoughts?

 

[Andrew]

SO, to begin this conversation I raise a question!

Why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "today" he would be with Him in 'paradise' if Jesus was going to descend into the heart of the earth "hades" for three days?

Quick answer: because there are two regions of sheol, 'Paradise' and 'Tartarus'... This 'Paradise' is a joyous place where the righteous are gathered but it's NOT Heaven, Heaven is where we go AFTER the resurrection! Jesus did not descend into 'Heaven', he descended into the heart of the Earth into Sheol... 'Tartarus' for lack of a better word is the lower part of sheol where the unrighteous await their second death which is the Lake of Fire or "Gehenna"

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43

 

[Albion]

SO, to begin this conversation I raise a question!

Why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that "today" he would be with Him in 'paradise' if Jesus was going to descend into the heart of the earth "hades" for three days?

Because the day that Jesus spoke those words was the day both of them would die and pass into the world of spirits.

 

[Andrew]

Because the day that Jesus spoke those words was the day both of them would die and pass into the world of spirits.

Correcto!
But I was always told that there is no room for a 'paradise' in "Hell"...

...that "Hell" is synonymous with 'Sheol' making 'sheol' sound like a place where 'all' are tormented in fire..

believers will go to Abrahams bosom 'paradise' and wait until they are taken up to meet Christ in the air, some will be lucky enough not to taste death and will be taken up to Heaven on the day of resurrection... do you agree that we don't go directly to Heaven after death? That our souls in fact go down to Sheol into Abraham's bosom and wait joyously until the resurrection? While others gnash their teeth in fear in the lower parts awaiting their second death?

 

[Albion]

In my opinion, you are mixing some pre-Christian concepts in with Christian ones and making one POV sound like the official one. No one knows for a certainty what Paradise is like but I agree that it is not hell, and it is where we go pursuant to the first judgment. Jesus did not go to the dammed and gloat following his death on the Cross, although that is an old theory held unofficially by some Christians. And no, I do not believe in the cultic concept called soul sleep.

 

[Andrew]

In my opinion, you are mixing some pre-Christian concepts in with Christian ones and making one POV sound like the official one. No one knows for a certainty what Paradise is like but I agree that it is not hell, and it is where we go pursuant to the first judgment. Jesus did not go to the dammed and gloat following his death on the Cross, although that is an old theory held unofficially by some Christians. And no, I do not believe in the cultic concept called soul sleep.

Well we should stand on what all those different words originally meant instead of just calling it Hell. Christian Gnostics and earlier pagans where the ones who first believed in torment in fire exactly after death for the wicked and a peaceful eternal paradise exactly after death for the good.
Why can't we be distinguished from them?
All roads lead to Rome with the concept of "Purgatory" and allowing pagan traditions into the church and also William Tyndale for for mixing 'Paradise' and 'Tartarus' in 'Sheol' as one word "Hell" which has lead many to wonder "Where do we go before the resurrection?" should have never been a question in the first place, early Christians understood this well.

 

[Albion]

Well we should stand on what all those different words originally meant instead of just calling it Hell.

I dont think so. There are plenty of concepts that the Hebrews held to which we Christians do not. And when it comes to other peoples and their religions, that is even more certain.

 

[Andrew]

I dont think so. There are plenty of concepts that the Hebrews held to which we Christians do not. And when it comes to other peoples and their religions, that is even more certain.

I think it's important that we understand what the Hebrews including Jesus held true about their beliefs concerning the soul after death.
Parables use actual 'nouns', not made up things, to help us understand a concept of a deeper truth.
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
Luke 16:22-26

 

[Andrew]

Sadly the KJV is stuck on the word "Hell", replacing the original words used, this has caused great confusion, I can't even post scripture to make my point due to mistranslation, but you get the idea... the correct word in context here would be "Hades" not "Hell"...

 

[Albion]

I think it's important that we understand what the Hebrews including Jesus held true about their beliefs concerning the soul after death.
Parables use actual 'nouns', not made up things, to help us understand a concept of a deeper truth.
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
Luke 16:22-26

Andrew, that is a parable, an analogy, not a literally true story about a dead man talking with Abraham. It teaches a moral, but it is fictional. So now you can tell us what the story teaches.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, that is a parable, an analogy, not a literally true story about a dead man talking with Abraham. It teaches a moral, but it is fictional. So now you can tell us what the story teaches.

An analogy yes but Abraham's bosom is a real place, when parables are used they are used with practical terminology, "the hidden treasure", "the sower", "tares among the wheats", all use practical places, symbols and characters and such to relay a spiritual understanding. I'm saying that 'paradise' that Jesus went to was not in "Hell" nor "Heaven" but indeed in Abrahams bosom, he was in Sheol for 3 days, how can one be both in "Hell" and "Paradise" at the same time??
The KJV has some flaws, and it contradicts itself... KJV says Jesus went to Hell for 3 days, Jesus says he and the thief went to Paradise that very day, which is it?
You know what I think, that the parable of the rich and poor man is based on a real location, Abrahams bosom (paradise) and "Hades" are both located in the Heart of the Earth but are separated just as the parable describes. It may not have been an actual documented exchange of words between the two characters but the place is real and any Jew today will tell you that our souls go to Sheol, they deny Hell and Heaven, "Hell" because they don't consider all of sheol as the Christian "Hell", and they deny "Heaven" because that's something Christians believe...
I had a conversation with hebrew friend before and asked him about life after death, he told me the same thing, our souls go to Sheol, I asked him if it's like Heaven he said for some it's paradise, for others it's unpleasant, I asked "what after that?" he said "I don't know, I guess until judgment or the creation of the new universe"... ANYWAY lol
My point is that in order for Jesus to have gone to "Paradise" in "Hades" he must have held that Abraham's Bosom does exist and the places in his parables are true, upon death you open you eyes in either Paradise or you open your eyes outside of Paradise in the lower parts of Sheol...
I'm going to toss this out there but there are NDE where people remember vividly seeing there family and loved ones in Heaven but then are told that they must go back and then they open there eyes back on earth... I feel that what they are describing isn't Heaven but Paradise...
What do you think about all of this so far?
Paradise is not Heaven nor "Hell" so how could Jesus have gone to both Paradise and Hellfire at the same time?
The Catholic Church will never address this question because they know they confused everyone already with "Purgatory", and basically calling Abraham's Bosom "Hell" which is what they imply when stating that Jesus descended into Hell 3 days when he just said he would be in Paradise...

 

[tango]

What do people think about the question of comma placement?

"I tell you the truth this day you will be with me in paradise" could, depending on where the comma is added, be:

"I tell you the truth, this day you will be with me in paradise" (in other words, the truth is that before this day is out you and I will both be in paradise)

or

"I tell you the truth this day, you will be with me in paradise" (in other words, I'm telling you the truth now, that you and I will both be in paradise at some point)

Is there something else in the text that guides us towards one or the other?

 

[Albion]

An analogy yes but Abraham's bosom is a real place, when parables are used they are used with practical terminology, "the hidden treasure", "the sower", "tares among the wheats", all use practical places, symbols and characters and such to relay a spiritual understanding. I'm saying that 'paradise' that Jesus went to was not in "Hell" nor "Heaven" but indeed in Abrahams bosom, he was in Sheol for 3 days, how can one be both in "Hell" and "Paradise" at the same time??

Okay. Maybe I didn't appreciate what your main concern with this actually is. Yes, paradise, no to hell. I thought I covered that before but only in passing.

The KJV has some flaws, and it contradicts itself... KJV says Jesus went to Hell for 3 days, Jesus says he and the thief went to Paradise that very day, which is it?

Paradise, which is why many churches that use the KJV also pray "He descended to the dead" or something like that when reciting the Creed these days. OR, if they use the traditional language, include a footnote saying that this other wording is an alternate translation.

You know what I think, that the parable of the rich and poor man is based on a real location, Abrahams bosom (paradise) and "Hades" are both located in the Heart of the Earth but are separated just as the parable describes. It may not have been an actual documented exchange of words between the two characters but the place is real and any Jew today will tell you that our souls go to Sheol, they deny Hell and Heaven, "Hell" because they don't consider all of sheol as the Christian "Hell", and they deny "Heaven" because that's something Christians believe...

Well of course SOME of the referencse in the parable are real, but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is factual or even possible.

 

[Andrew]

What do people think about the question of comma placement?

"I tell you the truth this day you will be with me in paradise" could, depending on where the comma is added, be:

"I tell you the truth, this day you will be with me in paradise" (in other words, the truth is that before this day is out you and I will both be in paradise)

or

"I tell you the truth this day, you will be with me in paradise" (in other words, I'm telling you the truth now, that you and I will both be in paradise at some point)

Is there something else in the text that guides us towards one or the other?

I considered that before but why would anyone phrase it that way? When have you ever heard some one say something like "I tell you today, that we are going shopping"?
Have you ever heard anyone talk like that?

 

[Andrew]

Okay. Maybe I didn't appreciate what your main concern with this actually is. Yes, paradise, no to hell. I thought I covered that before but only in passing.



Paradise, which is why many churches that use the KJV also pray "He descended to the dead" or something like that when reciting the Creed these days. OR, if they use the traditional language, include a footnote saying that this other wording is an alternate translation.


Well of course SOME of the referencse in the parable are real, but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is factual or even possible.

I read that some Amish groups and Mennonites still hold that we wait in Hades/realm of the dead either in Paradise or in Torment, yet western Christianity in general believes that we are judged upon death and enter Heaven or Hell...
Many believe what most NDE see, that we wait outside the pearly gates of Heaven and gather with loved ones, this makes better sense, for those in Abrahams bosom or paradise are indeed in the presence of the Lord and await Heaven... meanwhile those in Torment feel the heat of the lake of fire and are in the presence of the 2nd death, usually when people describe Hell in NDEs they say its a rather dark and gloomy place of people weeping in sorrow and wailing or being in presence of demons but I never heard of anyone witnessing a lake of fire.
Im not disagreeing with you Albion, but I think you do understand what I mean.

 

[Albion]

I considered that before but why would anyone phrase it that way? When have you ever heard some way say something like "I tell you today, that we are going shopping"?
Have you ever heard anyone talk like that?

It does seem less likely than the other interpretation.