Was Jesus left alone and lonely by God when he died ...

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Some preachers, especially televangelists, suggest that Jesus was deserted by God when he was dying on the cross. Do you believe that was what happened?
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married

Alithis

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
2,680
Location
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Some preachers, especially televangelists, suggest that Jesus was deserted by God when he was dying on the cross. Do you believe that was what happened?

i dont know as i dont yet comprehend the verse

they base it on the words the lord cried out on the cross ..
but the words .. when heard by the onlookers some thought he was crying out to elijah .. due to the phonic sound of the words eli eli .

Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani - but The English words ELI ELI (Strong's Concordance Number #G2241) in their literal meaning in the Greek language are "God, God." The meaning of the word LAMA (Strong's Concordance Number #G2982) is "Why." Lastly, the exact meaning of the word SABACHTHANI (Strong's Concordance Number #G4518) is "You have left (forsaken, abandoned) me."

in light of the truth that the lord jesus at that moment "became sin" he embodied all the sin of the world in one living sacrifice can only make it the case that God at that instant abandoned him.. for all sinners are ultimately abandoned by God in hell ..there is no return from hell once judged as worthy to be there a person who is cast into that place is "abandoned "by god and at that moment on the cross the lord Jesus "became all the sin of the world embodied " something God could not be ..showing another reason he became flesh to do so .the lord jesus was "the manifestation of God -but as flesh "

so at this moment in time i see no reason to discount that God forsook Jesus on the cross .
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
i dont know as i dont yet comprehend the verse

they base it on the words the lord cried out on the cross ..
but the words .. when heard by the onlookers some thought he was crying out to elijah .. due to the phonic sound of the words eli eli .

Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani - but The English words ELI ELI (Strong's Concordance Number #G2241) in their literal meaning in the Greek language are "God, God." The meaning of the word LAMA (Strong's Concordance Number #G2982) is "Why." Lastly, the exact meaning of the word SABACHTHANI (Strong's Concordance Number #G4518) is "You have left (forsaken, abandoned) me."

in light of the truth that the lord jesus at that moment "became sin" he embodied all the sin of the world in one living sacrifice can only make it the case that God at that instant abandoned him.. for all sinners are ultimately abandoned by God in hell ..there is no return from hell once judged as worthy to be there a person who is cast into that place is "abandoned "by god and at that moment on the cross the lord Jesus "became all the sin of the world embodied " something God could not be ..showing another reason he became flesh to do so .the lord jesus was "the manifestation of God -but as flesh "

so at this moment in time i see no reason to discount that God forsook Jesus on the cross .

How would God forsake Jesus? Is he not God himself?
 

Alithis

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
2,680
Location
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
here we go again lol
he is the son of God ,, uniquely born forth from the father ..he came from the father and he returned unto the father from whence he came . he prayed to the father in heaven , the father spoke from heaven and authenticated the son "this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased " the lord jesus said i and the father are one .. he never said we are one and the same embodiment in the same place at the same time .
he said the father is in heaven .. while he ..the man was upon the earth .

the lord jesus is "the word" that became flesh, he is the speaking of God ..

when you speak your words go out from you .. as wind and sound
once they have gone out from you, are they you ? yes ,are they gone out from you ..yes, .. are you where they have gone out to ..no
do your words speak themselves ? no, they are spoken by you the speaker ..

just so -
the lord jesus also is brought into subjection to the father at the end of all things -if he is the father how can he be brought into subjection with the father ? he can't be .but he is not the father, he is the word spoken out from the father and the word spoken is always subject to the speaker becaseu the word spoken cannot be spoken without a speaker .

now who is greater ?.. a king or the words that the king speaks out ..? they are equal in authority !for they(the word) are the expression of the authoritative one ,gone out from him .
but the words did not speak themselves but were spoken, so while being equal in authority they are still subject to the one who speaks them .
just so -the lord jesus is the word of goD- the authority of God expressed outwards and thus equal to , yet subject to god who spoke .

the lord jesus himself said so .. when he said
"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.""
 
Last edited:

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Why do you believe it?
Why dont you? Jesus said on the cross my God my God why have you forsaken me? We also know that God cannot look upon sin. These discussions really are pointless I think but maybe not
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Why dont you? Jesus said on the cross my God my God why have you forsaken me? We also know that God cannot look upon sin. These discussions really are pointless I think but maybe not

The Lord knew no sin in fact it is said of him that he did not sin so for the Blessed Father to look upon him who knew no sin would be right and proper. Is it not written in the law that the one who sins will himself die? Is it not true that the Lord died on behalf of sinners but was not himself a sinner? The holy scriptures say, "So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:18-21) In what way was Christ made to be sin? Was it not as a sin offering. Was he not the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. And being an offering for sins - a perfect spotless offering acceptable to God - how is it possible to believe that God would not look upon this offering made to wash away the sins of the world? Surely he who was made sin for our sakes was sinless and pure a spotless offering to God? "And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised." (2 Corinthians 5:15) The Lord Jesus Christ is the sacrifice for sin but is not thereby turned into a sinner. All this being said, and remembering that the Lord is himself God, I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was left alone and lonely by God when he died.
 
Last edited:

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
When a sacrifice is made for sin those sins are placed upon the sacrifice. Death is the price and Christ took our sin and died for it. He passed through hell and the sin was taken off there and then He preached to the righteous side of Hell and led them out
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
When a sacrifice is made for sin those sins are placed upon the sacrifice. Death is the price and Christ took our sin and died for it. He passed through hell and the sin was taken off there and then He preached to the righteous side of Hell and led them out

Consider carefully, on the great feast of atonement the sins were placed on the scape goat while the sacrificial lamb remained spotless.So the lamb of God offered for the sins of the world remains spotless and sinless even though he is the atonement for our sins.
The Day of Atonement
¶ The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of Aaron’s two sons when they had approached the Lord and died. The Lord told Moses. “Remind [SUP][Lit. Tell][/SUP] your brother Aaron that at no time is he to enter the sacred place from the room that contains the curtain into the presence of the Mercy Seat [SUP][Lit. atonement place; and so throughout the book][/SUP] on top of the ark. Otherwise, he’ll die, because I will appear in a cloud at the Mercy Seat. Aaron is to enter the sacred place with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a whole burnt offering. He is to wear a sacred linen tunic and linen breeches that will cover his genitals. He is to clothe himself with a sash and wrap his head with a linen turban. Because they are sacred garments, he is to wash himself with water before putting them on.”
The Atonement and Scapegoat Lots
¶ “He is to take two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a whole burnt offering from the assembly of the Israelis. Then Aaron is to bring the bull as a sin offering for himself and make atonement for himself and his household.
¶ “Then he is to take the two male goats and present them in the Lord’s presence at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting. Aaron is to cast lots over the two male goats—one lot for the Lord and the other one for the scapegoat. [SUP][So with LXX; MT reads for Azazel; i.e. the goat that will be sent away][/SUP]
¶ “Aaron then is to bring the male goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and offer it as a sin offering. The male goat on which the lot fell for the scapegoat is to be brought alive into the Lord’s presence to make atonement for himself. Then he is to send it into the wilderness.”
The Sin Offering
¶ “Aaron is then to bring the bull for a sin offering for him, thus making atonement for himself and his household. He is to slaughter the ox for himself. Then he is to take a censer, fill it with coals from the fire on the altar in the Lord’s presence. With his hands full of spiced and refined incense, he is to bring it beyond the curtain.
¶ “Then he is to place the incense over the fire in the Lord’s presence, ensuring that the smoke [SUP][Lit. cloud][/SUP] from the incense covers the atonement place, according to regulation, so he won’t die. He is to take blood from the ox and spatter it with his forefinger toward the surface of the atonement place. Then he is to spatter the blood on the surface of the atonement place with his forefinger seven times.
¶ “He is to slaughter the male goat as a sin offering for the people and bring its blood beyond the curtain and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull: He is to spatter it on the atonement place over the surface of the atonement place. Then he is to make atonement on the sacred [SUP][Or holy][/SUP] place on account of the uncleanness of the Israelis, their transgressions, and all their sins. This is how he is to act in the Tent of Meeting, which will remain with them in the middle of their uncleanness.
¶ “No person [SUP][Lit. man][/SUP] is to be there when he enters the Tent of Meeting to make atonement in the sacred place until he comes out and has made atonement on account of himself, his household, and the entire assembly of Israel. When he goes to the altar in the Lord’s presence to make atonement for himself, then he is to take some of the blood from the bull and the male goat, place it around the horns of the altar, spattering it with the blood on his forefinger seven times, cleansing and sanctifying it from Israel’s sins.”
The Scapegoat Offering
¶ “When he has completed making atonement at the sacred place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, then he is to present the live male goat. Aaron is to lay his two hands upon the head of the male goat and confess over it the sins of Israel, all their transgressions, and all their sins, thus placing them on the head of the male goat that he’ll then send out to the wilderness by the hand of a man capable of carrying out this task. [SUP][The Heb. lacks of carrying out this task][/SUP] The male goat will bear on itself all their sins to a solitary land, as Aaron sends the goat out to the wilderness.
¶ “Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, taking off his white linen clothes that he had put on when he entered the sacred place and leaving them there. He is to wash his body with water at the sacred place and put on his clothes. Then he is to go out, offer a whole burnt offering for himself and a whole burnt offering for the people, thereby making atonement on account of himself and on account of the people.
¶ “As to the fat from the burnt offering, he is to incinerate it on the altar. The one who sent away the male goat as a scapegoat [SUP][So with LXX; MT reads for Azazel; i.e. the goat that will be sent away][/SUP] is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water. After doing so, he may enter the camp.
¶ “The bull for the sin offering and the male goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to the sacred place, are to be taken outside the camp. Their skin, meat, and offal are to be incinerated. The one who burns them is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water. After doing so, he may enter the camp.”
(Leviticus 16:1-28)
 
Last edited:

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Consider carefully, on the great feast of atonement the sins were placed on the scape goat while the sacrificial lamb remained spotless.So the lamb of God offered for the sins of the world remains spotless and sinless even though he is the atonement for our sins.
The Day of Atonement
¶ The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of Aaron’s two sons when they had approached the Lord and died. The Lord told Moses. “Remind [Lit. Tell] your brother Aaron that at no time is he to enter the sacred place from the room that contains the curtain into the presence of the Mercy Seat [Lit. atonement place; and so throughout the book] on top of the ark. Otherwise, he’ll die, because I will appear in a cloud at the Mercy Seat. Aaron is to enter the sacred place with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a whole burnt offering. He is to wear a sacred linen tunic and linen breeches that will cover his genitals. He is to clothe himself with a sash and wrap his head with a linen turban. Because they are sacred garments, he is to wash himself with water before putting them on.”
The Atonement and Scapegoat Lots
¶ “He is to take two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a whole burnt offering from the assembly of the Israelis. Then Aaron is to bring the bull as a sin offering for himself and make atonement for himself and his household.
¶ “Then he is to take the two male goats and present them in the Lord’s presence at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting. Aaron is to cast lots over the two male goats—one lot for the Lord and the other one for the scapegoat. [So with LXX; MT reads for Azazel; i.e. the goat that will be sent away]
¶ “Aaron then is to bring the male goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and offer it as a sin offering. The male goat on which the lot fell for the scapegoat is to be brought alive into the Lord’s presence to make atonement for himself. Then he is to send it into the wilderness.”
The Sin Offering
¶ “Aaron is then to bring the bull for a sin offering for him, thus making atonement for himself and his household. He is to slaughter the ox for himself. Then he is to take a censer, fill it with coals from the fire on the altar in the Lord’s presence. With his hands full of spiced and refined incense, he is to bring it beyond the curtain.
¶ “Then he is to place the incense over the fire in the Lord’s presence, ensuring that the smoke [Lit. cloud] from the incense covers the atonement place, according to regulation, so he won’t die. He is to take blood from the ox and spatter it with his forefinger toward the surface of the atonement place. Then he is to spatter the blood on the surface of the atonement place with his forefinger seven times.
¶ “He is to slaughter the male goat as a sin offering for the people and bring its blood beyond the curtain and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull: He is to spatter it on the atonement place over the surface of the atonement place. Then he is to make atonement on the sacred [Or holy] place on account of the uncleanness of the Israelis, their transgressions, and all their sins. This is how he is to act in the Tent of Meeting, which will remain with them in the middle of their uncleanness.
¶ “No person [Lit. man] is to be there when he enters the Tent of Meeting to make atonement in the sacred place until he comes out and has made atonement on account of himself, his household, and the entire assembly of Israel. When he goes to the altar in the Lord’s presence to make atonement for himself, then he is to take some of the blood from the bull and the male goat, place it around the horns of the altar, spattering it with the blood on his forefinger seven times, cleansing and sanctifying it from Israel’s sins.”
The Scapegoat Offering
¶ “When he has completed making atonement at the sacred place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, then he is to present the live male goat. Aaron is to lay his two hands upon the head of the male goat and confess over it the sins of Israel, all their transgressions, and all their sins, thus placing them on the head of the male goat that he’ll then send out to the wilderness by the hand of a man capable of carrying out this task. [The Heb. lacks of carrying out this task] The male goat will bear on itself all their sins to a solitary land, as Aaron sends the goat out to the wilderness.
¶ “Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, taking off his white linen clothes that he had put on when he entered the sacred place and leaving them there. He is to wash his body with water at the sacred place and put on his clothes. Then he is to go out, offer a whole burnt offering for himself and a whole burnt offering for the people, thereby making atonement on account of himself and on account of the people.
¶ “As to the fat from the burnt offering, he is to incinerate it on the altar. The one who sent away the male goat as a scapegoat [So with LXX; MT reads for Azazel; i.e. the goat that will be sent away] is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water. After doing so, he may enter the camp.
¶ “The bull for the sin offering and the male goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to the sacred place, are to be taken outside the camp. Their skin, meat, and offal are to be incinerated. The one who burns them is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water. After doing so, he may enter the camp.”
(Leviticus 16:1-28)
Yeshua is taking the role of the High Priest in this feast. Satan will take the role of the goat that remains outside before the congregation, looking just like the goat sacrificed.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Yeshua is taking the role of the High Priest in this feast. Satan will take the role of the goat that remains outside before the congregation, looking just like the goat sacrificed.

Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and no high priest of the old (and abrogated) covenant was of that tribe. Satan plays no role in redeeming the faithful from their sins - not even the role of a scapegoat.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and no high priest of the old (and abrogated) covenant was of that tribe. Satan plays no role in redeeming the faithful from their sins - not even the role of a scapegoat.
Book of Hebrews says differently... You would have to study the fall feasts... I give you a hint... The scapegoat is called Azazel.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Book of Hebrews says differently... You would have to study the fall feasts... I give you a hint... The scapegoat is called Azazel.

That's no hint. It was included in the reading I gave in post #10, perhaps you missed it. The notes said "[So with LXX; MT reads for Azazel; i.e. the goat that will be sent away]" If you have something from the book of Hebrews to present then do so please, hints and games are not helpful.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
neither is pretending to not know things
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and no high priest of the old (and abrogated) covenant was of that tribe. Satan plays no role in redeeming the faithful from their sins - not even the role of a scapegoat.
That is why in Hebrews it explains Yeshua's role as the forever priest of a different order.... Hebrew 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
[MENTION=131]visionary[/MENTION], the priesthood isn't really the subject of this thread despite it being raised.
 

visionary

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,824
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Messianic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Clarification is good.

You stated "Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and no high priest of the old (and abrogated) covenant was of that tribe."
I stated "That is why in Hebrews it explains Yeshua's role as the forever priest of a different order.... Hebrew 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Moving on ...
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
inconvienient truth?
 
Top Bottom