Vestments

[George]

This has been primarily said towards the EO Church, but also with others who have vestments. An argument I've heard is that vestments aren't necessary, though they carry symbolism and they were in the Bible.

 

[Lamb]

They aren't necessary. They're what Lutherans would call adiaphora (things scripture neither mandates nor forbids).

When a pastor or priest wears vestments, it hides the wordly man before us and points us toward the Christ who saves. Anything and everything in the liturgy is meant to point to our Savior.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes the priests in the temple wore them

 

[Josiah]

An argument I've heard is that vestments aren't necessary, though they carry symbolism and they were in the Bible.

I'd agree with that.

It's "adiaphoron" - a matter neither mandated nor forbidden in the NT. I don't say that the non-denom preacher in his Aloha shirt and jeans is THEREFORE wrong, but nor do I say that a Lutheran or Anglican or Orthodox or Catholic bishops are THEREFORE wrong to wear very specific clothing. And yes, I would note that in the OT, very special vestments were not only MANDATED by God Himself (directly) but God gave considerable detail as to exactly what these vestments were to be. Because God so specifically mandated it in the OT, I find a "vestments are BAD" argument rather difficult.



- Josaih

 

[psalms 91]

I'd agree with that.

It's "adiaphoron" - a matter neither mandated nor forbidden in the NT. I don't say that the non-denom preacher in his Aloha shirt and jeans is THEREFORE wrong, but nor do I say that a Lutheran or Anglican or Orthodox or Catholic bishops are THEREFORE wrong to wear very specific clothing. And yes, I would note that in the OT, very special vestments were not only MANDATED by God Himself (directly) but God gave considerable detail as to exactly what these vestments were to be. Because God so specifically mandated it in the OT, I find a "vestments are BAD" argument rather difficult.



- Josaih

They are not bad but also not necessary. My Methodist pastor wears vestments, my non denom doesnt, no difference

 

[Full O Beans]

They are not bad but also not necessary. My Methodist pastor wears vestments, my non denom doesnt, no difference

I agree. The early church pastors never wore anything that would attempt to elevate their stature from among their brethren. Our pastors are one of us. They have their calling and we have our own. Together, we form the complete Body of Christ, working together, no part greater in glory than any other.

Ephesians 4:16
He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

1 Corinthians 12:18-25
But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”

22 In fact, some parts of the body that seem weakest and least important are actually the most necessary. 23 And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect those parts that should not be seen, 24 while the more honorable parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together such that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. 25 This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other.

 

[Lamb]

Why would vestments cause you to think the man is elevated? The vestments show something quite different, that you have before you a humble servant of the Lord.

 

[Full O Beans]

Why would vestments cause you to think the man is elevated? The vestments show something quite different, that you have before you a humble servant of the Lord.

Man tends toward elevating spiritual leaders and those in the pulpit. Showing humility in that way is a form of elevation and even false humility. ("Look! There's a humble servant!!") We are all called to the same humility and the same calling---preaching the word to the world.

 

[Lamb]

Man tends toward elevating spiritual leaders and those in the pulpit. Showing humility in that way is a form of elevation and even false humility. ("Look! There's a humble servant!!") We are all called to the same humility and the same calling---preaching the word to the world.

Man does? Not always. I pray for my pastor because I know the hard work he does throughout the entire week. I often feel sorry for him.

 

[Full O Beans]

Man does? Not always. I pray for my pastor because I know the hard work he does throughout the entire week. I often feel sorry for him.

Of course! We are to always uphold those God places over us for the work they do and to give them double honour and pay them well according to the word of God!

 

[TurtleHare]

My pastor wears simple vestments at church because we are a poor congregation.

Full o Beans, don't know about you but I'm surprised my pastor can pay his rent on the piddly amount he makes. What kind of church do you belong to where your pastor is paid so well?

 

[Full O Beans]

My pastor wears simple vestments at church because we are a poor congregation.

Full o Beans, don't know about you but I'm surprised my pastor can pay his rent on the piddly amount he makes. What kind of church do you belong to where your pastor is paid so well?

We have a church that obeys God with regard to paying their spiritual leaders well. If my pastor looked poor and drove a jalopy on its last legs, what does that tell the world? We bless our leaders with "double honour" and pay them well according to the scriptural admonition.

1 Timothy 5:17 NLT
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

NKJV
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

 

[Josiah]

I'm on the church board. Our church worships about 50 on an average Sunday. We pay our pastor a salary of $61,200.00 for the year. He also gets a benefit package (health insurance, pension, life insurance, disability ,retirement savings) that comes to $29,211 for the year. He also gets $1000.00 per year education allowance. I have NO IDEA how that compares to other Lutheran and Protestant pastors of small churches. He does have a doctorate degree but I have no idea how that plays into the package. I just looked at my copy of the 2016 budget. My salary is similar, although I'm less than half his age. I have no idea what my benefit package costs my employer. I too have a doctorate.

The robe he wears is his own. The stoles he wears belong to the church and match those on the altar, pulpit, lectern. They were beautifully made by our ladies group several years ago. The same ladies made all the banners - custom designed and each is a quilt, really quite stunning.



- Josiah

 

[kiwimac]

I very rarely wear vestments.

 

[George]

I very rarely wear vestments.

On what occasion do you?

 

[Lamb]

WIf my pastor looked poor and drove a jalopy on its last legs, what does that tell the world?

It probably tells you that they aren't taking advantage of others and are living what they preach.

I have no idea what my current pastor makes but at my former church the pastor there made approximately the same amount as his congregation. That shows that he wasn't greedy but received an honest cost of living as was needed.

As for vestments...

I very rarely wear vestments.

Yeah, same here :rofl3:

Okay okay, I had to say it.

My thoughts for those against vestments, how do you feel about choir robes?

 

[Full O Beans]

I'd be ashamed to have a pastor that looked poor to the world, and who had to struggle financially.

It is unbiblical thinking that purveys the idea that our leaders are to be of small means. It is a shame to a congregation to not bless its spiritual shepherd with more than enough.

 

[Full O Beans]

It probably tells you that they aren't taking advantage of others and are living what they preach.

I have no idea what my current pastor makes but at my former church the pastor there made approximately the same amount as his congregation. That shows that he wasn't greedy but received an honest cost of living as was needed.

As for vestments...



Yeah, same here :rofl3:

Okay okay, I had to say it.

My thoughts for those against vestments, how do you feel about choir robes?

Choir robes: Old fashioned thinking.

 

[Brighten04]

I attend a Baptist church. Sometimes my pastor wears a robe, sometimes he wears a suit, sometimes he wears casual clothing. I don't think it matters what he wears. I don't wear vestments, but it is not because I can't. But I think vestments bring a distinguished look to the minister. IMHO they are just hot. LOL. Ladies I know you know what I mean. LOL

 

[TurtleHare]

A black chasuble now that's pleasant indeed. Hehe