Universal Atonement

[Lamb]

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

 

[Josiah]

Besides a lot of Scriptures, I have a PASTORAL problem with limited atonement.... because if Jesus doesn't love EVERYONE, if Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, I have no reason to believe He loves and saves ME. In accepting John 3:16 (etc., etc., etc.), I know that EVERYONE is presented with the same grace, mercy, free gift - so that means I am, too.

No, I'm not a universalist since that mandates that faith is irrelevant.... John 3:16 (etc., etc., etc.) does not do that.


MY perspective.....


- Josiah

 

[Hammster]

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

We don't believe that every instance of world is equal. In John's writings, it's used at least eight different ways. So it doesn't necessarily have to mean every single person who ever lived. In fact, if it does, then why would people be punished in hell for sins Christ took away?


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[Romanos]

Moved to Christian Theology.

 

[Ruth]

Hi. I think universal atonement is a great thing!

 

[psalms 91]

I think that the biggest lie of satan is once saved always saved. I believe that Hebrews 6 addresses this although I know that universalists will interpret it their own way. We have free will and are given choice so it is not God but the ones who choose not to follow believe in Jesus or fall away that choose hell, not God

 

[Hammster]

I think that the biggest lie of satan is once saved always saved. I believe that Hebrews 6 addresses this although I know that universalists will interpret it their own way. We have free will and are given choice so it is not God but the ones who choose not to follow believe in Jesus or fall away that choose hell, not God

Do you believe all sins were atoned for on the cross?


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[psalms 91]

Of course but does it not say that we have to ask forgiveness daily as we sin daily? If I believe that everything is already covered then what need for repentance or to change at all? I believe that Jesus died for all but that not all will accept Him or follow Him, as for all being saved the bible is quite clear that certain peoples sins will not be in heaven and that there are those who fall away and cannot be renewed again, that is what Hebrews 6 is saying. Paul said it very well, should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid, how can we that are dead to sin continue any longer therein? No Jesus sacrifice is not an excuse to sin or to rest on the false hope that all is taken care of without repentance and coming to the cross

 

[Hammster]

Of course but does it not say that we have to ask forgiveness daily as we sin daily? If I believe that everything is already covered then what need for repentance or to change at all? I believe that Jesus died for all but that not all will accept Him or follow Him, as for all being saved the bible is quite clear that certain peoples sins will not be in heaven and that there are those who fall away and cannot be renewed again, that is what Hebrews 6 is saying. Paul said it very well, should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid, how can we that are dead to sin continue any longer therein? No Jesus sacrifice is not an excuse to sin or to rest on the false hope that all is taken care of without repentance and coming to the cross

Okay. You say all sins were atoned for. Do you believe that hell is where people will be punished for sin?


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[Lamb]

We don't believe that every instance of world is equal. In John's writings, it's used at least eight different ways. So it doesn't necessarily have to mean every single person who ever lived. In fact, if it does, then why would people be punished in hell for sins Christ took away?


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They aren't being punished for having their sins taken away. They reject that forgiveness and damn themselves.

 

[psalms 91]

Okay. You say all sins were atoned for. Do you believe that hell is where people will be punished for sin?


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Hell was never meant for man but if we choose to go there by rejecting Christ or not following Him then that is where we will end up. That is not what God intended but we have free will to choose

 

[Hammster]

They aren't being punished for having their sins taken away. They reject that forgiveness and damn themselves.

Wouldn't rejection of forgiveness be a sin?


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[Hammster]

Hell was never meant for man but if we choose to go there by rejecting Christ or not following Him then that is where we will end up. That is not what God intended but we have free will to choose

So it's not a punishment?


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[psalms 91]

Of course it is eternal torment is not reward. Rejection of Christ and His atonement sends you there. Unforgiven sin will as well

 

[Hammster]

Of course it is eternal torment is not reward. Rejection of Christ and His atonement sends you there. Unforgiven sin will as well

Unforgiven sin? I thought all sin was atoned for?


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[Lamb]

The bible is filled with paradoxes. It's true that Jesus died for all. It's also true that the sin against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

 

[psalms 91]

it is but we can reject that atonement and we can also sin presumpously as well. We can also come to Christ and walk away or not obey Him. A couple of semntances is not enough to get into this but I know that you are aware of what I say. I believe we had this conversation or something similar in CF and the conclusion I came to was that we would have to agree to disagree

 

[Hammster]

The bible is filled with paradoxes. It's true that Jesus died for all. It's also true that the sin against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

Then you have at least one sin not covered by the atonement. So that in itself limits the atonement.


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[Hammster]

Let's look at the clearest section of scripture which discusses the atonement. The first 10 verses of Hebrews 9 talks about the OT Day of Atonement. That Atonement was limited. It was only for the people of Israel. Then the writer says this:

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. - Hebrews 9:11-12

If "all" here means every single person whoever lived, then the conclusion would have to be that every single person has been eternally redeemed. I don't think anyone who isn't a universalist would agree that this is the case.



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[GuusVA]

They aren't being punished for having their sins taken away. They reject that forgiveness and damn themselves.

Just what I wanted to say. I mean if all our sins are forgiven, that would basically mean I could stop repenting and spending time not trying to sin because well they are forgiven anyways. I mean that would be sort of weird..
I mean all the work we spend doing outreach would be totally useless because God forgave everyone anyways, just saying.

I mean yes it says ALL, but on other places in the bible it clearly states that you need to accept Jesus as your Savior to be saved from hell. I mean just how crooked would a faith be if you don't need to believe to be saved? How crooked would everything else you believed in be if Jesus died for us on a cross so that we didn't need to go to hell? That would simply mean that every christian on this earth would be able to stop believing, Just my opinion but I mean it feels so crooked. So incorrect.