Till the Last Penny Paid

[Jason76]

Matthew 5:26 "Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Supporters of eternal hell cannot get around this verse. Well one speaker said the original intent was to say "it couldn't be paid" in some sort of sarcasm. However, that doesn't make sense. Now, Catholics claim it's really about purgatory and some Universalists claim it means hell is purgatorial.

 

[Albion]

I don't want to oppose you just for the sake of being argumentative, but you just identified several different ways in which that verse CAN, in fact, be gotten around. At least in a qualified sort of way.

 

[Jason76]

I don't want to oppose you just for the sake of being argumentative, but you just identified several different ways in which that verse CAN, in fact, be gotten around. At least in a qualified sort of way.

Enlighten me.

 

[Albion]

Enlighten me.

As I said, you referred to them in your own post.

 

[Jason76]

As I said, you referred to them in your own post.

I forgot the post. It's been awhile since I been here last. I will look for it.

 

[1689Dave]

Supporters of eternal hell cannot get around this verse. Well one speaker said the original intent was to say "it couldn't be paid" in some sort of sarcasm. However, that doesn't make sense. Now, Catholics claim it's really about purgatory and some Universalists claim it means hell is purgatorial.

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

 

[Jason76]

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

What is the Greek behind everlasting? There is some hot debate or so many wouldn't doubt it.

 

[1689Dave]

What is the Greek behind everlasting? There is some hot debate or so many wouldn't doubt it.

"eternal"

 

[Albion]

I forgot the post. It's been awhile since I been here last. I will look for it.

Hi, Jason.

I was referring to the Original Post in this thread, which you wrote yesterday. In it you made reference to how Catholics...and also how Universalists...interpret that verse you gave us.

I'm not saying that I agree with the idea that either one of them has about the last penny being paid, but neither is it the case that no one has any explanation to offer.

 

[Jason76]

Hi, Jason.

I was referring to the Original Post in this thread, which you wrote yesterday. In it you made reference to how Catholics...and also how Universalists...interpret that verse you gave us.

I'm not saying that I agree with the idea that either one of them has about the last penny being paid, but neither is it the case that no one has any explanation to offer.

There is another verse about being "salted with fire" and that coming after "the worm that dieth not". Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[Albion]

If the existence of an eternal hell is approached on the basis of Scripture, there are indeed relevant verses and some of them fall on one side of the issue while others fall on the other side.

One problem is that they all require some interpretation, and none say "Yes a hell where unbelievers and evildoers will be tormented forever and ever does (or does not) exist."

But the verses that can be marshalled in support of Universalism are few, only about a half dozen, and they are not clearcut. By contrast, the verses that suggest a conventional hell are many and forceful.

 

[Jason76]

If the existence of an eternal hell is approached on the basis of Scripture, there are indeed relevant verses and some of them fall on one side of the issue while others fall on the other side.

One problem is that they all require some interpretation, and none say "Yes a hell where unbelievers and evildoers will be tormented forever and ever does (or does not) exist."

But the verses that can be marshalled in support of Universalism are few, only about a half dozen, and they are not clearcut. By contrast, the verses that suggest a conventional hell are many and forceful.

No, not really. It's more complex than that. Well, one thing that needs to be looked at is the context an overall theme of the Bible.

 

[Albion]

No, not really. It's more complex than that. Well, one thing that needs to be looked at is the context an overall theme of the Bible.

I suppose one could say that...and come up with all sorts of different rationalizations.

But if we go by the verses on either side of the issue--which is what people normally do whenever any doctrinal question arises--the ones that may support a universalist view are few and not very definite, quite in contrast to those that appear to be talking about a hell as it has traditionally been believed.

 

[Jason76]

I really believe that many people, as strange as it is, don't want to belive in an "age of punishment", but prefer to think of eternal torture.

 

[Albion]

I really believe that many people, as strange as it is, don't want to belive in an "age of punishment", but prefer to think of eternal torture.

What the "many" people believe about it is unknown, but I'd guess that more people prefer to think of hell as temporary rather than a place of eternal punishment or annihilation.

But either way, it's what the Bible teaches that matters...and you started us off in this discussion by referring to what the Bible says.

So, on that basis, we can judge that it's not temporary, as though the souls who are sent there will advance to heaven after a while. And to that end, we have--in the Bible--quite a few verses that say it's eternal or everlasting and hardly any that might support a Universalist conclusion.

The possibility that hell leads to annihilation rather than everlasting exclusion from heaven is a different matter, by the way.