Thoughts on the 'annihilationism' Thread

[Pedrito]

jsimms435 in Post #19: “So your claiming that when a person dies they cease to exist and then they are resurrected at the last day, which if they cease to exist then how are they resurrected? Please back up what your saying with scripture. I don't see any evidence that what your saying is true in scripture and I've read it over numerous times in the last 34 years ”

The illogicality of that is demonstrated by a simple question or two.

I could ask for instance, seeing that bodies cease to exist (including the bones in many cases) – decay, consuming fire, – and the component atoms from one body can find their way into other bodies via the consumption of plants, or the consumption of animals that ate such plants, or maybe even drinking runoff water – then how can those bodies be resurrected?

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Jsimms435 in Post #19 (again): “So your claiming that when a person dies they cease to exist and then they are resurrected at the last day, which if they cease to exist then how are they resurrected? Please back up what your saying with scripture. I don't see any evidence that what your saying is true in scripture and I've read it over numerous times in the last 34 years”

Jsimms435 in Post #23: “I asked you to show scripture to support your view and you have not.”

I doubt that my former request will bear any fruit – my request that specific Holy Scripture supplied by Stravinsk be acknowledged as contradicting the post-Nicene “immortal soul” doctrine. Therefore, in complying with requests in the Posts quoted above, I must risk casting a few pearls... (various emphases added.)

Acts 4:1-2: 1 “And [as] they spoke to the people, the priests, and the temple commander, and the Sadducees came on them, 2 being grieved that they taught the people, even to announce through Jesus the resurrection from [the] dead."

Acts 17:18: “And certain philosophers from the Epicureans and from the Stoics met him. And some said, What will this babbler say? And others said, He seems to be an announcer of foreign demons (because he preached Jesus and the resurrection to them)."

Acts 17:32: “And hearing [of] a resurrection of [the] dead, some indeed mocked; and others said, We will hear you again concerning this.

Acts 23:6: “But when Paul saw that the one part were Sadducees and the other part Pharisees, he cried out in the sanhedrin, Men! Brothers! I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee! I am being judged because of the hope and resurrection of [the] dead."

Acts 24:14-15 [emphasis added]: “14 But I confess this to you, that after the Way which they call heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things that are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of [the] dead, both of the just and unjust."

1 Corinthians 15:21-22: 21 [emphasis added]: “For since death [is] through man, the resurrection of [the] dead also [is] through a Man. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive."

Philippians 3:11: “if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead."

Hebrews 6:1-2: “1 Therefore, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of [the] baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Hebrews 11:35 [emphasis added]: “Women received their dead raised to life again, and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,9:10: “5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; nor do they any longer have a part forever in all that is done under the sun… 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do [it] with all your might; for [there is] no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave where you go."

Psalm 115:17: “The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence."

Psalms 146:4: “His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Isaiah 26:19: “Your dead ones shall live, [together with] my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew [is as] the dew of lights, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

There are more, but I’d better stop for space reasons. (No mention of immortal souls or continuing consciousness, note. Why not mention something that important?)

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Note also Albion in Post #20: “It's reincarnation, IOW. But there is almost nothing in Scripture to support that particular POV.”

I would suggest that labelling a holy revelation from God as being “reincarnation” is inviting trouble from Someone other than me.

 

[NewCreation435]

they are resurrected the same way any resurrection happens, by the power of God. Did you even read my last post about progressive revelation? All the posts prove in your last post is that the resurrection is mentioned and will happen. It doesn't support your view of cessation of existent. It doesn't say anything about where the spirit of the man or woman goes after the body dies. It's irrelevant to our topic

 

[Pedrito]

Abbreviations used in this Post:

- TOTAT = “Thoughts on the Annihilationism Thread” in World Religion & Speculative Theology;
- ANN = “Annihilationism” in World Religion & Speculative Theology;
- PR = “Progressive Revelation” in Christian Theology.

I am submitting this Post to both the TOTAT and PR threads, because it has continuing relevance to both. (This Post is a little long, but each section is bite sized and can be considered in isolation. And even with that, not every statement in Post #40 has been addressed.)

And Please Note: there are yet a number of other statements made in the TOTAT thread by holders of the “conscious after death”/”immortal soul” perspective, that still need addressing.

One hopes that the TOTAT thread will not be closed prematurely (i.e. before those statements have been addressed).

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jsimms435 in Post #40 in TOTAT:

You are correct in saying that the concept of death in the Old Testament is different from the New

I request of jsimms435 that he reproduce the statement or statements I made that expressed that idea.

Because I have been consistently demonstrating that the concept of death is totally consistent (exactly the same) in both the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures and the Inspired Greek Scriptures.

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jsimms435 in Post #40 in TOTAT:

There is such a thing as progressive revelation.

Correct.

But the Holy Revelation regarding (what might be termed) the death state, did not change with the coming of the Original Apostolic Gospel. The consistency was actually taught by Jesus Himself.

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jsimms435 in Post #40 in TOTAT [emphasis added]:

Those in the days of Job and David didn't have the New Testament, the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. They often phrased death in terms of Sheol, which at best is that the dead didn't have awareness of what was going on on earth and sometimes was viewed as a garbage dump

Sheol (the grave) was never viewed as a garbage dump. The Valley of Hinnom (translated as Gehenna or Hell for us), the deep ravine on one side of Jerusalem, was the garbage dump in which everything thrown in was extinguished. And that garbage dump didn’t exist until after Jerusalem was taken.

Both Jesus and Paul confirmed the “Old Testament” revelation regarding death as being true.

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Jsimms435 in Post #40: “Instead of getting your concept of hell from Job, which is probably the oldest book in the Bible. Interpret your views in light of the whole of scripture. Instead of discounting the passages that I have and others have given you.”

A. jsimms435 has opened the door for me to request that jsimms435 provide the “dozens of scriptures he made reference to in Post #8 in ANN, and that MennoSota provide the “forest of verses” he mentioned in Post #2 in that same thread. I’m sure people would like to know how many dozens make a forest.

And I request of Albion that he provide for us “every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death” (Post #19 in ANN). I would hate to miss considering an important piece of evidence.

And maybe jsimms435 can list those verses in Ezekiel (that I have found elusive) that he mentioned in Post #31 in TOTAT.

B. I ask jsimms435 to please show how I have been guilty of “discounting the passages that I have and others have given you”. In my recollection it was the “conscious after death”/”immortal soul” camp that treated portions of God’s Holy Revelation dismissively.

And as I said, I haven’t finished the task, yet. I request more time.

C. Is there really “a concept of hell” in Job? Aren’t the two occurrences of the word “hell” in Job, simply poor translations of the Hebrew word sheol (grave)? Nothing to do with eternal punishment at all.

 

[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION] do not make duplicate posts on this forum. That is disruptive and inappropriate. this is a warning**

I have said all that I am going to say on this matter. I have answered all your questions if you want to go back through the thread and read my replies. You might want to pay attention to post #28 and 29 as it has scriptures referring to what I have been saying. Nobody is arguing that the resurrection of the physical body will occur. Nobody is arguing that the physical body dies. Your missing the point and I'm tired of repeating myself. this conversation has been ongoing for two months now and you ignore any posts I write, so what is the point in discussing anything with you.

 

[atpollard]

Is there really “a concept of hell” in Job?

Yes.

Aren’t the two occurrences of the word “hell” in Job, simply poor translations of the Hebrew word sheol (grave)? Nothing to do with eternal punishment at all.

No. Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

 

[Pedrito]

jsimms435 in Post #19[emphasis added]:

So your claiming that when a person dies they cease to exist and then they are resurrected at the last day, which if they cease to exist then how are they resurrected?...

Me in Post #41:

The illogicality of that is demonstrated by a simple question or two.

I could ask for instance, seeing that bodies cease to exist (including the bones in many cases) – decay, consuming fire, – and the component atoms from one body can find their way into other bodies via the consumption of plants, or the consumption of animals that ate such plants, or maybe even drinking runoff water – then how can those bodies be resurrected?

jsimms435 in Post #42:

they are resurrected the same way any resurrection happens, by the power of God.

It would seem that jsimms435 answered his own question. Does it not?

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A person could be forgiven for wondering why such a question, one which has such an obvious answer, would be asked in the first place.

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What must not be overlooked, is the strong psychological impact that such questions and related statements have on people.

That psychological impact is never fully removed by the sensible, logical answer. The damage is done. Readers note.

And in the main, that is exactly why questions like that are employed in the first place.

 

[psalms 91]

jsimms435 in Post #19[emphasis added]:


Me in Post #41:


jsimms435 in Post #42:


It would seem that jsimms435 answered his own question. Does it not?

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A person could be forgiven for wondering why such a question, one which has such an obvious answer, would be asked in the first place.

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What must not be overlooked, is the strong psychological impact that such questions and related statements have on people.

That psychological impact is never fully removed by the sensible, logical answer. The damage is done. Readers note.

And in the main, that is exactly why questions like that are employed in the first place.

Exactly, which is why I say that these great selling debates and lack of faith, (yes questions about the power of God and His ability to do anything shows doubt), turns people away from the simple message of salvation and turns them into twice the child of hell. Noone cares about your intellect or way with words we should be concenred with souls and not debates

 

[Pedrito]

Virgil the Socialist in Post #32: “Why did they choose put the comma before "today" and not after it? There is no punctuation in Greek.”

atpollard in Post #33: “Because placing the coma after "today" makes Jesus sound like he is a complete idiot. Who starts a sentence with "I am talking with you this day, in order to tell you ..." it is self evident that you are talking today if the person is standing there listening to you.”

But could Jesus have been using a Hebrew idiom that is actually recorded elsewhere in Scripture?

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Let’s see [attention focus added]:

Genesis 25:31: And Jacob said, Sell me your birthright today.

Genesis 25:33: And Jacob said, Swear to me this day. And he swore to him, and he sold his birthright to Jacob.

Exodus 34:11: Observe that which I command you this day. Behold! I drive out before you the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

Deuteronomy 4:26: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it…

Deuteronomy 4:39: Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 4:40: Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee…

Deuteronomy 5:1: And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deuteronomy 6:6: And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deuteronomy 7:11: Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Etc., etc., etc.

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In all the above, the “this day” inclusions could be said to be “unnecessary”. But they are clearly a Hebrew vernacular expression used for emphasis. Like “right now” in English, and like “today” in Luke 23:43.


And I don’t think I’m overstepping the mark, if I counsel caution regarding making rash remarks about our Wonderful Saviour – e.g. “Because placing the coma after "today" makes Jesus sound like he is a complete idiot...”


I hold the Saviour of Mankind, my Saviour in fact, in higher regard than that.

 

[Pedrito]

jsimms435 in Post #44:

I have said all that I am going to say on this matter. I have answered all your questions if you want to go back through the thread and read my replies. You might want to pay attention to post #28 and 29 as it has scriptures referring to what I have been saying. Nobody is arguing that the resurrection of the physical body will occur. Nobody is arguing that the physical body dies. Your missing the point and I'm tired of repeating myself. this conversation has been ongoing for two months now and you ignore any posts I write, so what is the point in discussing anything with you.

OK. I went back and looked. In case I missed something. Here’s what I found.

(Readers note: I am being logical and level headed in my approach. I always strive to be. Identifying a Poster who made a particular statement or particular statements cannot logically be interpreted as flaming or being discourteous. Not under any circumstances.

I am also not drawing attention to attempts to directly and indirectly discredit Scripture deemed inconvenient, nor to places where I have been misquoted. Nor to the avoidance of Scripture, the like of which I have been accused of.)

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From jsimms435 Posts in this thread, supporting continuing life after death as opposed to cessation of existence:
Post #21 Hebrews 9:27-28 27 – Already ddressed in Post #39, with particular reference to the Creeds.
Post #29 Philippians 1:23-24 – To be addressed directly, soon. Matthew 22:29-32 – To be addressed directly, soon. Matthew 17:3 – To be addressed directly, soon.

Four references in all.

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From atpollard in this thread, supporting continuing life after death as opposed to cessation of existence:
Post #17 Psalm 49:15 – To be addressed directly, soon. Psalm 139:8 – To be addressed directly, soon.
Post #28 Luke 16:19-31 – To be addressed directly, soon. Luke 23:39-43 – To be addressed directly, soon.

Four references in all.

How does that compare with what has been submitted with respect to the other perspective – cessation of existence?

Continued…

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued from Post #49

Let’s look at some scripture references, as requested by [MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION], presented by [MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION] and [MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION] in support of a conscious “soul” continuing alive when a person dies.

Let’s try the following (as stated in Post #49):

From jsimms435 Posts in this thread, supporting continuing life after death as opposed to cessation of existence:
Post #21 Hebrews 9:27-28 – Already ddressed in Post #39, with particular reference to the Creeds.
Post #29 Philippians 1:23-24 – To be addressed directly, soon. Matthew 22:29-32 – To be addressed directly, soon. Matthew 17:3 – To be addressed directly, soon.

Four references in all.

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Hebrews 9:27-28: Both the Holy Bible and the four “anchor” creeds state that the judgement happens after the resurrection. We looked at that before. Hebrews 9:27-28 is the opposite of a proof text.

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Philippians 1:23-24: This verse set is employed, despite its apparent conflict with the verses which state that rescue from the state of death is by resurrection. (Those verses have had to be declared irrelevant because they are direct and numerous, and their presence contrasts with the absence of direct and numerous verses about continuing conscious souls.) But does Philippians 1:23-24 really conflict with the resurrection verses?

Consider: In cultures where Santa Claus is said to bring children presents during the night of Christmas Eve, what is said to an excited child? “The sooner you go to sleep, the sooner you’ll be opening your presents.”

If that is indicative of Paul’s perspective – dying sooner than later would shorten the perceived time before waking from the sleep of death in the presence of Jesus, then there is no conflict between that expressed thought and the multiple verses that speak of resurrection as God’s instituted rescue from death.

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Matthew 22:29-32: This is commonly interpreted in line with the conscious soul after death idea.

However, the context is the Sadducees’ denial of a resurrection – that resurrection being the only rescue from death that God had revealed, and that Jesus Himself taught. Jesus is countering the Sadducees’ idea of the finality of death. He points out that by God saying He is the God of the nominated Fathers, that death is not final – there will be a resurrection, and those Fathers can be counted alive because of that coming rescue. As opposed to their being dead-dead, that is. Remember that the God who had revealed that relationship in Exodus 3:6 and Exodus 3:15-16, also arranged to have committed to formal writing, the fact that resurrection was the mechanism of rescue from the unconsciousness of death, that He Himself would institute.

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Matthew 17:3: Matthew 17:9 tells us that it was a vision. It wasn’t really happening there and then. Were Moses and Elijah, supposedly disembodied “souls” at that time, actually visible? Were they naked? If not, where did they get their clothes from? What were Moses and Elijah saying to Jesus? What would they know about His coming death and what it would achieve, that He did not already know? Maybe that is the clue.

Luke 9:30-31 points to what was going on, if one is sensitive to it. Matthew 17:3 has nothing to do with souls being conscious after death.

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Psalm 49:15, Psalm 139:8, Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43, next time.

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued from Post #50

Now let’s have a look at the other 4 scripture references that have been tendered in support of the idea of a conscious “soul” continuing alive when a person dies. These were submitted by atpollard and bring the total number of verses submitted in that context to 8.

Those verses are Psalm 49:15, Psalm 139:8, Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43.

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Psalm 49:15: But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. (NIV)

That is totally in line with other statements of Scripture regarding rescue from death by resurrection.

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Psalm 139:8: If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. (NIV)

The context indicates the psalmist is acknowledging the futility of trying to escape God’s presence. Verse 9 demonstrates that the psalmist is employing poetic language.

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Luke 16:19-31: (Readers please read this carefully. There is insufficient space to reproduce the full text here. Jesus recounts the tale of Lazarus and the rich man.)

If the story is to be taken as literally true, then the Christian Gospel in its various proclaimed (and contradictory) forms is shown to be false. Salvation depends on how poor you are, not on faith. Interesting. Where does that leave wealthy “Christians” in Western nations when compared to the starving and diseased in economically disadvantaged countries? Maybe those wealthy ones had better sell all they have and give to the poor. Just in case.

Not only that, but we are now informed that souls of dead people in Hades have tongues, and their sufferings can be eased by drops of water, wherever that comes from. Also, how long did Lazarus have to queue up to have his turn at Abraham’s bosom? How long did he get to stay there before he had to return to the end of the queue once again?

Or could there be an entirely different meaning after all? Could Jesus have been recounting a parable to targeted people for a specific purpose?

Does the text actually tell us to whom Jesus was directing this story? And what could that purpose have been, if so?

Maybe the matter can be settled without question, simply answering the query “Did anyone of significance in Israel’s history have five brothers?”, and then answering this: “If so, who was it?”.

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Luke 23:39-43: (Readers please reference this. It recounts the situation of Jesus and the thief on the cross.)

As was pointed out in Post #48, the Holy Bible shows “this day” (“today” in some translations) to be a common Hebrew expression denoting emphasis and certainty. Like “I tell you right now” in English. The comma was added and positioned by translators to support a post-Nicene doctrine that they deemed needed bolstering.

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But maybe the verses presented so far to support the idea of a conscious “soul” continuing alive when a person dies, weren’t the best available.

We should remain open to considering the “dozens of scriptures”, the “forest of verses”, and “every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death”.

If they in fact exist, that is.

 

[Pedrito]

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atpollard in Post #17:

Psalm 49:15 NASB But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.
Psalm 139:8 NASB If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Cessation of existence?

Interesting. Let’s look at each statement in turn. (Other submitted Scriptures will be given attention later.)

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Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

In some translations the untranslated, transliterated word “Sheol” there, is translated as “the grave”. For instance, KJV, ERRB, HiSB, IHOT, LBP, MKJV, NIV.

And maybe we should consider the following:
Job 33:18 NASB: He keeps back his soul from the pit [H7845], And his life from passing over into Sheol [H7585].
Job 33:22 NASB: Then his soul draws near to the pit [H7845], And his life to those who bring death.
Job 33:28 NASB: He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit [H7845], And my life shall see the light.
Job 33:30 NASB: To bring back his soul from the pit [H7845], That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
Psalms 30:3 NASB: O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol [H7585]; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit [H953].
Psalms 30:3 NIV: O LORD, you brought me up from the grave [H7585]; you spared me from going down into the pit [H953].
Psalm 35:7 NASB: For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit [H7845] for my soul.
Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol [H7585], For He will receive me. Selah.
Psalm 49:15 NIV: But God will redeem my life from the grave [H7585]; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
Psalm 89:48 NASB: What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol [H7585]? Selah.
Psalm 89:48 NIV: What man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave [H7585]? Selah
Isaiah 38:17 NASB: Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit [H7845] of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

Strong's H953 = a pit hole (especially one used as a cistern or a prison), pit, well, cistern.
………………….. Destination of: the person.
Strong's H7585 = Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit, the underworld, righteous not abandoned to it, of the place of exile (fig), of extreme degradation in sin; (prior to post-apostolic times, the demonstrable only meaning was) the grave.
………………….. Destination of: a person’s life, a person’s soul, a person.
Strong's H7845 = a pit (especially as a trap), destruction, grave; (in post apostolic times, also) hell.
………………….. Destination of: a person’s soul.

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So, a dead person’s soul can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in the grave; or destroyed; or, in terms of pagan Greek philosophy, in “Hades” (whatever that means – the meaning seems far from concrete).

A dead person can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in “Hades”.

A dead person’s life can supposedly be: in “Hades”.

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Do Readers detect a measure of post-apostolic confusion in this matter? (The translations are post-Apostolic. “The grave” is consistent with companion OT revelation.)


Continued...

 

[psalms 91]

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atpollard in Post #17:


Interesting. Let’s look at each statement in turn. (Other submitted Scriptures will be given attention later.)

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Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

In some translations the untranslated, transliterated word “Sheol” there, is translated as “the grave”. For instance, KJV, ERRB, HiSB, IHOT, LBP, MKJV, NIV.

And maybe we should consider the following:
Job 33:18 NASB: He keeps back his soul from the pit [H7845], And his life from passing over into Sheol [H7585].
Job 33:22 NASB: Then his soul draws near to the pit [H7845], And his life to those who bring death.
Job 33:28 NASB: He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit [H7845], And my life shall see the light.
Job 33:30 NASB: To bring back his soul from the pit [H7845], That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
Psalms 30:3 NASB: O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol [H7585]; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit [H953].
Psalms 30:3 NIV: O LORD, you brought me up from the grave [H7585]; you spared me from going down into the pit [H953].
Psalm 35:7 NASB: For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit [H7845] for my soul.
Psalm 49:15 NASB: But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol [H7585], For He will receive me. Selah.
Psalm 49:15 NIV: But God will redeem my life from the grave [H7585]; he will surely take me to himself. Selah
Psalm 89:48 NASB: What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol [H7585]? Selah.
Psalm 89:48 NIV: What man can live and not see death, or save himself from the power of the grave [H7585]? Selah
Isaiah 38:17 NASB: Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit [H7845] of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

Strong's H953 = a pit hole (especially one used as a cistern or a prison), pit, well, cistern.
………………….. Destination of: the person.
Strong's H7585 = Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit, the underworld, righteous not abandoned to it, of the place of exile (fig), of extreme degradation in sin; (prior to post-apostolic times, the demonstrable only meaning was) the grave.
………………….. Destination of: a person’s life, a person’s soul, a person.
Strong's H7845 = a pit (especially as a trap), destruction, grave; (in post apostolic times, also) hell.
………………….. Destination of: a person’s soul.

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So, a dead person’s soul can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in the grave; or destroyed; or, in terms of pagan Greek philosophy, in “Hades” (whatever that means – the meaning seems far from concrete).

A dead person can supposedly be: trapped in a physical pit; or in “Hades”.

A dead person’s life can supposedly be: in “Hades”.

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Do Readers detect a measure of post-apostolic confusion in this matter? (The translations are post-Apostolic. “The grave” is consistent with companion OT revelation.)


Continued...

Is it also possible that since this is Old Testament that it is referring to the righteous side of hell which now is empty?

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #52, the total confusion and inconsistency relating to the translation of (the meaning assigned to) the Hebrew word “sheol” was highlighted, as was the consistency of the meaning “grave” with the rest of Scripture.

In reply, Psalms 91 in Post #53, in responded thus:

Is it also possible that since this is Old Testament that it is referring to the righteous side of hell which now is empty?

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Well, unfortunately that proposal requires the ignoring of the Inspired Holy Scriptures (in both Old and New Testaments) that state that rescue from death (the only rescue from Biblical death) is by resurrection.

One also needs to retrospectively lay a false interpretation onto Luke 16:20-31 (Lazarus and the rich man). The falsehood of that interpretation is obvious to anyone with a mind clear of pre-conditioning. That false interpretation both contradicts the true Gospel, and even highlights idiocies within the doctrine (“the righteous side of hell”, accompanied by an unrighteous side) that that passage is invoked to support.

Consider for instance:
- The stated basis for salvation is a person’s wealth or poverty;
- Spirit beings (non-physical souls) in the unrighteous side of hell have tongues and eyes; as do those in "the righteous side of hell";
- There is water available to place on those tongues;
- Souls in the righteous side of hell and in the unrighteous side of hell can see each other, hear each other, and talk to each other;
- Spirit beings (souls) in the unrighteous side of hell are being tormented before they are judged.

And consider Romans 3:10, referring to statements written before Jesus’ atoning death:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

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Naturally, all sorts of ideas can be floated in defence of the retrospective interpretation. For instance Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 are normally resorted to – all of which are negated by Matthew 27:57-60 for instance. (And their presention offers only emotionally satisfying "evidence".)

And totally ignored is what Jesus Himself had taught the family of Lazarus (the one whom Jesus loved – John 11:3) with respect to family reunion – Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day (John 11:24).

And yet again, totally ignored is what the Apostle Paul explained under divine inspiration. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The truth revealed by Holy Scripture contradicts the post-Nicene accretion (addition) proposed in Post #53.

 

[Pedrito]

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jsimms435 in Post #42:

All the posts prove in your last post is that the resurrection is mentioned and will happen. It doesn't support your view of cessation of existent. It doesn't say anything about where the spirit of the man or woman goes after the body dies. It's irrelevant to our topic

So:
- Scriptures which demonstrate unequivocally that the Apostolic Gospel repeatedly taught resurrection from the dead to be God’s chosen and only remedy for rescuing individuals from the unconscious death state, are declared irrelevant;
- Even though that is the state of the dead and the rescue mechanism that God had revealed in His inspired revelation to the Hebrews;
- And that same state and rescue mechanism are repeated in inspired NT statements;
- The inspired OT and NT statements are declared irrelevant because they say nothing about a continuing conscious existence after death – even though that concept was never a part of God’s Holy Revelation.

Interesting.

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Here are some references previously posted by me in this thread. Some of them indicate that death is death full stop. Others show that resurrection was the only mechanism of rescue from death being proclaimed in the Gospel. Individually and together, they are in direct opposition to Christendom’s post-Nicene teaching of Christians going to Heaven at death.

Please take the time to review each one carefully. The Reader will find it to be an illuminating and instructive exercise.
Post #5 2 Timothy 3:14-17, Matthew 22:23-32, Mark 12:18-27, and Luke 20:27-38, Acts 23:6-8
Post #24 (courtesy of another Poster) Psalms 104:29, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:6, 2 Kings 20:1, Job 17:13, Job 14:1-2
Post #27 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Post #39 John 11:23-24
Post #41 Acts 4:1-2, Acts 17:18, Acts 17:32, Acts 23:6, Acts 24:14-15, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22: 21, Philippians 3:11, Hebrews 6:1-2, Hebrews 11:35, Ecclesiastes 9:10, Psalm 115:17, Psalms 146:4, Isaiah 26:19


26 references in all. (The list isn’t exhaustive, but it is more than sufficient.)

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I submit that the New Testament verses presented above are indeed totally relevant, because they demonstrate the total absence of any teaching within the Apostolic Gospel about a Christian going to Heaven when he or she dies. They also indicate nothing about a non-Christian going to some place of horrible consciousness when that person dies. Those references above can not be blithely dismissed, as has been attempted. They agree unreservedly with God’s Holy revelation to Israel. (And the list isn’t exhaustive.)


Continued…

 

[Pedrito]

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I submit that the significant and meaningful list of NT (and OT) verses presented in Post #41 are indeed totally relevant, because they demonstrate the total absence of any teaching within the Apostolic Gospel about a Christian going to Heaven when he or she dies, and indicate nothing about a non-Christian going to some place of horrible consciousness when that person dies. Those references in Post #41 can not be blithely dismissed as has been attempted. They agree unreservedly with God’s Holy revelation to Israel. (And the list isn’t exhaustive.)

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But why believe me? What does God’s Holy Revelation tell us that the basic Gospel was?

Hebrews 6:1,2: “1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

Resurrection from death? Notably Present. Going to be with Jesus when Christians die? Notably Absent.

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On the basis of that, I believe it is not inappropriate for me to request yet again (originally in Post #43) detail of the supposed proof scriptures presented in the “Annihilationism” thread – namely, the “dozens of scriptures” referred to by jsimms435 in Post #8, the “forest of verses” referred to by Mennesota in Post #2, and “every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death” referred to by Albion in Post #19 (maybe just two or three dozen of those scriptures from each person will suffice, if there are indeed several dozens of them in the forest).

It is also pertinent to request from atpollard, the verses he referred to in Post #45 - Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

I wish to give give appropriate attention to each of those verses individually. Surely that is a reasonable request.


And I really would like to look at those Ezekiel verses referred to by MennoSota in Post #31.


I always like to let Holy Scripture speak.

 

[Pedrito]

...Continued

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In Post #17 atpollard presented, in support of a disembodied lifeform continuing to exist after a person dies:

Psalm 139:8 NASB: If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Wait a minute. Why does that verse say “I”? Shouldn’t it be “my soul”?

How can “I” ascend into heaven? And how can “I” make my bed in Sheol, unless it means the grave?

Besides, reading the wider passage Psalm 139:7-12 gives the context.

The statements are simply a poetic acknowledgement of the God’s omnipresence.


(Read the passage, and you’ll see for yourself.)

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To minimise any inconvenience, here it is. Psalms 139:7-12:

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.


Isn’t properly applied Scripture wonderful?

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #56, I referred to claims that were made (variously expressed) regarding the large number of verses that (supposedly) existed regarding God’s eternal (everlasting, perpetual) torturing of people’s everlasting souls in “Hell”. (And therefore that people do have everlasting souls that survive human death.) I requested their tabling because I always like to let Holy Scripture speak.

I present those claims here again as quotes, and once again request the tabling of those verses. (In the absence of that tabling, a public admission (confession) that the verses referred to do not actually exist, would be highly appropriate.)

(Bear in mind that it was jsimms435 who started the ‘annihilationism’ thread.)

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MennoSota From Post #2 in the ‘annihilationism’ thread [emphasis added]:

...it is developed by misapplying a couple verses while ignoring the forest of verses that make it untenable.

jsimms435 From Post #8 in the ‘annihilationism’ thread [emphasis added:

As far as I can tell, people who have taught this have been uncomfortable with the idea that God could punish anyone in hell for eternity and still be a loving God. This is the way they reconcile this in their minds. nevermind that there are dozens of scriptures that contradict this.

Albion from Post #19 in the ‘annihilationism’ thread [emphasis added]:

Were we here all members of a Jewish congregation, that argument would be appropriate--and it would be accepted at face value. However, we are Christians and have the enormous weight of the Gospels and the whole of the New Testament to guide our beliefs. Were you to quote or paraphrase every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death, the conclusion would be quite different. And unavoidable.

atpollard from Post #45 in this thread (Thoughts on the annihilationism Thread) [emphasis added]:

Actually, references to the afterlife are found throughout Job and seldom tied to the word 'sheol' [which does mean 'grave' rather than 'Hell' in Job.]

MennoSota from Post #31 in this thread (Thoughts on the annihilationism Thread) [emphasis added]:

Ezekiel shares a number of verses where the dead Kings of earlier Kingdoms wonder when Babylon, Tyre and Egypt will be punished. These souls are in the "pit" and very much conscious.

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Verses please. (The forest, the dozens, the every NT verse that teaches..., those found throughout Job, the ones in Ezekiel.) I always like to let Holy Scripture speak.

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[Pedrito]

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From Post #53 in the ‘annihilationism’ thread once again [emphasis added]:

Is this the only verse you cling to in holding to annihilationism?

I wonder: If someone holding the “annihilationism” perspective wrote words like that to an “immortal soul” person, would that someone end up being censured for it?

Or maybe if that someone holding the “annihilationism” perspective simply reacted in kind to the above quoted provocation, would they run the risk of suffering censure for that?

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Unfortunately, I have seen multiple examples in the past, of “Christians” baiting opponents until the opponents reacted. Attention was then focussed on that (“totally unreasonable”) reaction to the baiting, to turn attention away from the exceedingly strong evidence the baited person had been presenting. Baiting is thus one technique that is used to counter evidence that is considered dangerous – dangerous because it could well represent the bulk of Scripture on a matter.

In my long term observation, underhanded techniques are only used when they are deemed necessary – when the battle is considered lost without them (or at least in serious doubt).

Readers, please note: Which side has consistently felt the need to use underhanded techniques in this matter. (It was not the perspective labelled “annihilationism”.) The guilty parties have been people trying to counter tabled Scripture that supports that perspective.

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And what of the multitude of scripture references said to exist by members of the “immortal-soul-and-eternal-torture-in-hell” camp, supposedly supporting their belief? (jsimms435, MennoSota, Albion and atpollard).

I wonder how the Wonderful Author of the Amazing Bible views my having to request yet again (originally in Post #43, repeated in Post #56 and in Post #58) detail of those supposed proof scriptures. Refer to Post #58 to see those claims laid out in detail.

Let me repeat that I wish to give give proper attention to each and every one of those verses individually.


(But I’m starting to get the impression that they don’t actually exist. Do they?)


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