Theosis and humanity.

[MoreCoffee]

In the holy scriptures there is one passage that explicitly mentions that Christians will come to share the nature of Christ. There's another passage that says Christians have the mind of Christ. These are hints, not a lot more than hints, that true humanity is found only in Jesus Christ and that the faithful become fully and completely human only by union with Jesus Christ. I think there is something that some may take too far in this line of thought. I suspect that Buddhism has taken it too far with the notion of 'nirvana' in which, if I am not mistaken, personal identity and individuality is swallowed up in union with the eternal. My apologies to Buddhists if I am mistaken.

The reason I worry about taking it too far and why I feel confidence that what I said about Buddhist beliefs (as I perceive them) is not what Christian theosis is. Christian teaching is that Jesus Christ remains human in heaven. His resurrection is the hope of our own and his resurrected state is the state we hope to attain and his life is the life we yearn to receive but because Jesus is "the man, Jesus Christ" he remains an individual and has personal identity. Thus we too ought to hope for union with Christ that causes personal identity to remain and individuality to persist.

 

[Arsenios]

In the holy scriptures there is one passage that explicitly mentions that Christians will come to share the nature of Christ.

That would be Peter...

There's another passage that says Christians have the mind of Christ.

That would be Paul...

These are hints, not a lot more than hints, that true humanity is found only in Jesus Christ and that the faithful become fully and completely human only by union with Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of Theosis is the underlayment of Faith in God - Or better to say, its Hypostasis... It is the unifying non-dogmatized fact, the existence of which actually accounts for all the decisions of all the Ecumenical Christian Councils... It is the basis of all Church Dogma... Never openly proclaimed... In the EOC, it is the teaching of the Theotokos in silence, and the attainment of the Neptic Fathers whose praxis was and is Hesychia...

I think there is something that some may take too far in this line of thought.

As long as it is but a line of thought, it can easily go astray...

I suspect that Buddhism has taken it too far with the notion of 'nirvana' in which, if I am not mistaken, personal identity and individuality is swallowed up in union with the eternal. My apologies to Buddhists if I am mistaken.

Nirvana is a demonic doctrine designed to kill the spirit of man...

I know a lovely young woman who sent to a class that taught it... Everyone else was there to learn about it... She was there to DO it... Her instructor was very supportive... She succeeded... Total apathy... Kill her children, no problem... Two years... Couldn't escape... "In the grasp..." like the demoniacs... Dragging herself through each day...

A Greek young man visited her house, said hello on the way by, and stopped - Looked at her, and asked: "What is going on with you?" She related what happened, and he prayed for her and she came out of it... They are m

The reason I worry about taking it too far and why I feel confidence that what I said about Buddhist beliefs (as I perceive them) is not what Christian theosis is.

Correct-a-mundo...

Christian teaching is that Jesus Christ remains human in heaven.
His resurrection is the hope of our own and
his resurrected state is the state we hope to attain
and his life is the life we yearn to receive
but because Jesus is "the man, Jesus Christ"
he remains an individual and has personal identity.
Thus we too ought to hope for union with Christ
that causes personal identity to remain
and individuality to persist.

This is not about Theosis...

Arsenios

 

[TurtleHare]

I never did understand the concept of theosis and it could be either my brain not getting it or the person explaining it not doing it so well.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That would be Peter... That would be Paul...

Yes, brother Arsenios I knew who said it and even where it is said. Thank you for stating it in writing.

The doctrine of Theosis is the underlayment of Faith in God - Or better to say, its Hypostasis... It is the unifying non-dogmatized fact, the existence of which actually accounts for all the decisions of all the Ecumenical Christian Councils... It is the basis of all Church Dogma... Never openly proclaimed... In the EOC, it is the teaching of the Theotokos in silence, and the attainment of the Neptic Fathers whose praxis was and is Hesychia... As long as it is but a line of thought, it can easily go astray...

I see what you mean. Saint James reasoned that sin came from what was thought about when the thought grew in the mind until the body acted upon the thought. But you appear to be arguing the opposite, which may be true too, that right actions give birth to right thinking and when the right doing grows in the body the mind may understand the rightness. Is that so?

Nirvana is a demonic doctrine designed to kill the spirit of man...

I know a lovely young woman who sent to a class that taught it... Everyone else was there to learn about it... She was there to DO it... Her instructor was very supportive... She succeeded... Total apathy... Kill her children, no problem... Two years... Couldn't escape... "In the grasp..." like the demoniacs... Dragging herself through each day...

A Greek young man visited her house, said hello on the way by, and stopped - Looked at her, and asked: "What is going on with you?" She related what happened, and he prayed for her and she came out of it... They are m

The 'm' is a typo? Or is it an unfinished word like 'married'?

Correct-a-mundo...
This is not about Theosis...

Arsenios

That is right, what I wrote is not about theosis, it is about aspects of the incarnation that ought to be remembered whenever a thought like 'nirvana' passes into one's mind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I never did understand the concept of theosis and it could be either my brain not getting it or the person explaining it not doing it so well.

Anything that I write about it will be inadequate because it is more lived than written about. Yet the concept is not beyond human ability to write in words, saint Peter wrote about it, saint Paul too but in more obscure and oblique words. Think of what saint Paul says about baptism in Romans chapter six and you will see an oblique approach to the concept and if you think about what saint Peter wrote in his letters. One of the saints wrote:

A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the Incarnation of God, which makes man God to the same degree as God Himself became man ... . Let us become the image of the one whole God, bearing nothing earthly in ourselves, so that we may consort with God and become gods, receiving from God our existence as gods. For it is clear that He Who became man without sin (cf. Heb. 4:15) will divinize human nature without changing it into the Divine Nature, and will raise it up for His Own sake to the same degree as He lowered Himself for man's sake. This is what St[. Paul teaches mystically when he says, 'that in the ages to come he might display the overflowing richness of His grace' (Eph. 2:7)​

 

[Arsenios]

The 'm' is a typo? Or is it an unfinished word like 'married'?

Yes, my typo - Indeed they are married to this day and hour!

The nirvana so esteemed is soul-less apathy, which is demonic possession... It is fairly easily overcome by another for the one so afflicted, but not so much for its victim...

Another young Greek man visited an elder on Mt Athos - He had been on a pilgrimage to India, and visited the Monasteries there, and intended to go back, but went to see the elder first... The elder liked him a lot, and tried to talk him out of the trip, but did not succeed... So he taught him the Jesus Prayer, and blessed his journey... And he went to India to the monasteries there, and in them all, he spent his prayer time saying the Jesus Prayer... Stirred up a hornet's nest... Silent prayer is not so silent there, you see... And he finally tired of the enterprise and got the blessing of the Indian Guru to leave, who told him: "If you run into any difficulties getting back to Calcutta to the Airport, just say a little prayer to this place and you will be helped..." And sure enough, the train tickets got all messed up, and he said the little prayer, and was taken over, and suffered great lethargy, and could not figure out his way back, and was trapped... And after a couple of months, he remembered the elder one day, and cried out to him for help... The elder was in his hut talking with two visitors, and said: "Excuse me please..." And he turned to one side and said: "Come out of him..." And this was repeated three times, and the young man came to himself, and found his way home... And wrote the book: "The Elder, the Guru, and the Young Man."

Turns out that a lot of young Americans are wandering around India in that state of mind...

And over half are women...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I never did understand the concept of theosis
and it could be either my brain not getting it
or the person explaining it not doing it so well.

We all will encounter God sooner or later...
Some encounter Him sooner, in this life, and their lives are turned around...
This is the state of many Christians here...

IF one follows the discipleship of the Church unto purification of the heart...
And THEN meets God, the result is the Illumination of the Nous (mind)... [Baptism-Justification]
And IF one then keeps the purity of heart attained in Baptism...
And this means overcoming the world in one's self in suffering...
And THEN encounters God again...
The result is Glorification [Theosis]
And the Saint is born...
Who walks in the Power of God as a man...

This is the qintessential monastic endeavor, but it is not limited to monastics...
These are the Guardians of the Body of Christ in the Power of the Holy Spirit...
Paul was one of these...
So too have been many...
This is the narrow and straited way found by few...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I never did understand the concept of theosis...

Here is Elder Ephraim, one of the holiest men alive today, in his 90's, talking about hesychastic prayer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dETOVRuI3LM

The whole focus of the Orthodox Faith is the solid establishment in one's soul of ongoing and personal relationship with God... It is the point of discipleship... It is the goal... This union with God that not merely turns one's life around, but establishes such a person in a life that radiantly is elevated above all other worldly concerns...

Elder Ephraim is the smiley old guy on the right...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

The incarnation of the Lord as the man Jesus Christ really is integral to theosis.

 

[Arsenios]

The incarnation of the Lord as the man Jesus Christ really is integral to theosis.

One might think so, but this condition of soul, and the human person in its aftermath, predates the incarnation... The most famous of these is the Prophet Moses, who spent 40 days and nights on the Mountain with the Lord-God... His face was so lit up that the Israelites could not look upon it, and he had to cover his face to go among them...

The consequence of the Incarnation was to make this condition more accessible...
Rremember: It is the result of a God given encounter with a person who through the discipleship of the Church has attained purification of the heart by repentance AFTER (normally, mind you...) being entered into the Kingdom by Baptism... You see, as new-borns at Baptism, we grow up to maturity, becoming perfected in the Faith of Christ, and this is where many and most come up short, and do not elect to take the narrow and straited Way... Fore-shadowed by David having to kill Goliath in the Promised Land... Most were afraid of him... David had that rare combination of humility and indignation in the face of the enemies of God... And David was no stranger to Theosis, for he knew God, and was 'of God's own heart', and fell, and repented, and was received back by God, and wrote so many Psalms...

So the Incarnation of Christ IS integral, for by being Baptized INTO Christ, we become a New Creation which is now ABLE, in ways not available to the OT Saints, to attain purification of the Heart, because of the enhypostatic change wrought in the person of those Baptized into Christ... At Baptism, as new-borns, we are outwardly little more than servants ans slaves, though we are heirs of all the Grace of God... Which is why we grow and mature in our opposition and hidden warfare against evil powers qand principalities in high places... And the few who succeed, as Scripture relates, become the Holy Ones of the Body of Christ if they have been baptized into Christ... John the Baptist, the greatest of the Prophets, was NOT so Baptized...

Our decisions and actions in this life are determinative of the condition we will find ourself in when we come to the Life of the Age to Come - What we do and decide is critical... Not by way of earning anything, but by the Scripture that tells us: "Whosoever is faithful in small things shall be given great things..."

Paul's encounter with Christ on the Road to Damascus was Theosis, yet he still needed Baptism...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

One might think so, but this condition of soul, and the human person in its aftermath, predates the incarnation... The most famous of these is the Prophet Moses, who spent 40 days and nights on the Mountain with the Lord-God... His face was so lit up that the Israelites could not look upon it, and he had to cover his face to go among them...

The consequence of the Incarnation was to make this condition more accessible...
Rremember: It is the result of a God given encounter with a person who through the discipleship of the Church has attained purification of the heart by repentance AFTER (normally, mind you...) being entered into the Kingdom by Baptism... You see, as new-borns at Baptism, we grow up to maturity, becoming perfected in the Faith of Christ, and this is where many and most come up short, and do not elect to take the narrow and straited Way... Fore-shadowed by David having to kill Goliath in the Promised Land... Most were afraid of him... David had that rare combination of humility and indignation in the face of the enemies of God... And David was no stranger to Theosis, for he knew God, and was 'of God's own heart', and fell, and repented, and was received back by God, and wrote so many Psalms...

So the Incarnation of Christ IS integral, for by being Baptized INTO Christ, we become a New Creation which is now ABLE, in ways not available to the OT Saints, to attain purification of the Heart, because of the enhypostatic change wrought in the person of those Baptized into Christ... At Baptism, as new-borns, we are outwardly little more than servants ans slaves, though we are heirs of all the Grace of God... Which is why we grow and mature in our opposition and hidden warfare against evil powers qand principalities in high places... And the few who succeed, as Scripture relates, become the Holy Ones of the Body of Christ if they have been baptized into Christ... John the Baptist, the greatest of the Prophets, was NOT so Baptized...

Our decisions and actions in this life are determinative of the condition we will find ourself in when we come to the Life of the Age to Come - What we do and decide is critical... Not by way of earning anything, but by the Scripture that tells us: "Whosoever is faithful in small things shall be given great things..."

Paul's encounter with Christ on the Road to Damascus was Theosis, yet he still needed Baptism...


Arsenios

I think that perhaps your thinking on this matter is too time bound, brother Arsenios, for while it is true that the incarnation took place in time as it must because mankind exists in time until after the last judgement or until they die and are spirits in the heavens, yet the incarnation was purposed in eternity and its effects spread throughout all time as the creation story tells us. For Adam was made in the image of God and Eve too. The image that they bore was the image of the incarnate Christ, though the incarnation was not to take place in time for many thousands of years.

 

[Arsenios]

I think that perhaps your thinking on this matter is too time bound, brother Arsenios, for while it is true that the incarnation took place in time as it must because mankind exists in time until after the last judgement or until they die and are spirits in the heavens, yet the incarnation was purposed in eternity and its effects spread throughout all time as the creation story tells us. For Adam was made in the image of God and Eve too. The image that they bore was the image of the incarnate Christ, though the incarnation was not to take place in time for many thousands of years.

This issue goes back to the difference between Salvation in the Old Testament and Salvation in Christ... eg The difference between pre-Incarnate and post-Incarnate Salvation... And Christ saying that John the Baptist is the Greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, yet the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than is John... The reason is the en-hypostatic alteration of the person that occurs in Baptism into Christ - The New Creation is man-Godded by rebirth in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... "Except ye be born of Water and of Spirit..." Once conjoined hypostatically with God as a New Creature IN Christ, one is then able to receive the discipling of the Church unto purity of heart and the overcoming of demonic forces, which at God's discretion culminates in Gifts of the Holy Spirit by God conjoining His Gifts with the person so prepared... Sometimes He does, and sometimes not... His Call... Not ours...

So when Menno wrote that there is no difference in Salvation before and after Christ, he is right in terms of Theosis, but wrong in the hypostatic union - eg the New Creation... In OT times, one became saturated in the Holy Spirit, but still as a fallen man, whereas in NT times, one becomes saturated in the Holy Spirit as a person conjoined to the Risen Christ... Which is a whole 'nother level...

As to the matter of timelessness of the incarnation, it does not seem relevant to these considerations...

Indeed, the incarnation is the entry of God into time, giving Him a before and an after, a BC and an AD...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There are a lot of speculative misunderstandings regarding Theosis...
I can be perceived as a condition of soul, which it is not...
Because it is an event, and is the state of the soul within that event...
The event lasts from less than a second to 40 days [Moses]...
During that event, God is pouring His Energies into the person...
It is "Face to face" with God, though not with the Essence of God...
The normal everyday state of a human soul after theosis is the state of Illumination...
During the event, words fall away, as does thought...
There is a certain ex-stasis -
Paul described it as a not-knowing
whether he was in or not in the body...

It is the ultimate attainment of man on earth in his relationship with God...
It is the Treasury of the Church...
It was known to Padre Pio in the Latin Church...
It is known to many in the Orthodox Church...
No abundance, mind you...
But they can be readily found...
It is the Source of all the Written...
As St. Peter records in 2Pet 1:21...
Holy Men of God are intimate with it...
It is the Holy Union of man with God...
It is Life Everlasting...
It is here and now...
It is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...
These are the Pillars of the Ekklesia...
Whose prayers move mountains...

It is this that we protect...
In the dogmas of the Great Councils...
In the Praxis of the Faith...
Against all enemies...
With our very lives...


Arsenios