The widows mite.

[MoreCoffee]

There's a story in the gospel about Jesus and the apostles watching the people as they give their donations to the temple offering boxes. The temple offerings were used for the upkeep of the building and possibly for the payment of the Levites and priests. The story goes like this:

[41] And Jesus, sitting opposite the offertory box, considered the way in which the crowd cast coins into the offertory, and that many of the wealthy cast in a great deal. [42] But when one poor widow had arrived, she put in two small coins, which is a quarter. [43] And calling together his disciples, he said to them: “Amen I say to you, that this poor widow has put in more than all those who contributed to the offertory. [44] For they all gave from their abundance, yet truly, she gave from her scarcity, even all that she had, her entire living.”
(Mark 12:41-44)​

Is Jesus holding out the example of the widow as one for Christians to follow - give away all that you have for the upkeep of the church buildings and payment of the church's employees?

Is that what the text says or intends to teach?

 

[tango]

I don't see it as saying we must give everything away, simply that God looks at what we give compared to what we have, whereas as humans we tend to look at the bit after the currency sign. We are prone to see a donation for $100,000 as being hugely generous and more impressive than a donation for $1,000 but if that $100g came from someone like Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos the chances are they didn't even notice the change to their budget. To them it's pocket change even if to the rest of us it is a lot of money.

God may call us to literally give everything away, I just don't see this particular situation as being an instruction to do that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't see it as saying we must give everything away, simply that God looks at what we give compared to what we have, whereas as humans we tend to look at the bit after the currency sign. We are prone to see a donation for $100,000 as being hugely generous and more impressive than a donation for $1,000 but if that $100g came from someone like Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos the chances are they didn't even notice the change to their budget. To them it's pocket change even if to the rest of us it is a lot of money.

God may call us to literally give everything away, I just don't see this particular situation as being an instruction to do that.

I'm not so sure that it teaches anything about giving. It may be included in the gospel primarily to show how easy and superficial public religion is. The widow is not presented as a model to follow she is a contrast to the easy and superficial giving of the wealthy. The lesson may be that "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven".

 

[tango]

I'm not so sure that it teaches anything about giving. It may be included in the gospel primarily to show how easy and superficial public religion is. The widow is not presented as a model to follow she is a contrast to the easy and superficial giving of the wealthy. The lesson may be that "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven".

I'm not even sure the thing about the camel is relevant to this particular note. What I see is that God is more impressed by people who truly give, rather than people who give in a way that doesn't cost them anything to speak of, but doing it in a manner that's more about them than about the giving. Waving a wad of $100 bills before putting them in the collection might impress people who see just how much you are giving, but it doesn't impress God who knows just how many more of them you have in your bank account.

I also see a parallel with the widow in 1Kings 17, who made Elijah a cake despite it using up everything she had. What we have to give might be virtually nothing in human terms but if we give it to God he can use it. Just like the widow's last scraps of oil and flour, just like the widow's mite, just like the person who gave up their lunch to feed the 5000, God can make it enough.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm not even sure the thing about the camel is relevant to this particular note. What I see is that God is more impressed by people who truly give, rather than people who give in a way that doesn't cost them anything to speak of, but doing it in a manner that's more about them than about the giving. Waving a wad of $100 bills before putting them in the collection might impress people who see just how much you are giving, but it doesn't impress God who knows just how many more of them you have in your bank account.

I also see a parallel with the widow in 1Kings 17, who made Elijah a cake despite it using up everything she had. What we have to give might be virtually nothing in human terms but if we give it to God he can use it. Just like the widow's last scraps of oil and flour, just like the widow's mite, just like the person who gave up their lunch to feed the 5000, God can make it enough.

The passage about the Widow's mite is helpful at this point. It is a whole chapter in the gospel according to saint Mark and it covers many things but the story is set among these other stories for a reason that saint Mark has.

Mark Chapter 12

The Parable of the Tenants

1 And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower, and leased it to tenants and went into another country. 2 When the season came, he sent a servant to the tenants to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they struck him on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 And he sent another, and him they killed. And so with many others: some they beat, and some they killed. 6 He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Have you not read this Scripture:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”


12 And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away.

Paying Taxes to Caesar

13 And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. 14 And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone’s opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?” 15 But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar’s.” 17 Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him.

The Sadducees Ask About the Resurrection

18 And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. 22 And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

The Great Commandment

28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Whose Son Is the Christ?

35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet.”’


37 David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?” And the great throng heard him gladly.

Beware of the Scribes

38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39 and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

The Widow’s Offering

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”​

Sorry about the link/references that are still in the text, there were so many I did not remove them before posting this reply. I hope they do not distract too much. It may be useful to use your printed bible ... I edited the post, wrote a small "regular expression" and removed the unwanted references.

 

[tango]

That's a good point - in the context of vv38-40 it shifts focus onto the kind of religious leaders who demand a certain amount, and who do things more for show than anything else. Even so, I think the idea that God judges based on what we don't give as much as on what we do give is still there - as Jesus said, the widow put in more than the rich people because she gave everything she had. It's easy to throw $1000 donations around if you're a multimillionaire but it's much more of a sacrifice to put $10 in the plate and end up literally not knowing if you'll be eating tonight.

I can't help thinking also that the idea of giving sacrificially is to support people who have even less, not to give the preacher the chance to wear a $5000 suit and fly first class.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's a good point - in the context of vv38-40 it shifts focus onto the kind of religious leaders who demand a certain amount, and who do things more for show than anything else. Even so, I think the idea that God judges based on what we don't give as much as on what we do give is still there - as Jesus said, the widow put in more than the rich people because she gave everything she had. It's easy to throw $1000 donations around if you're a multimillionaire but it's much more of a sacrifice to put $10 in the plate and end up literally not knowing if you'll be eating tonight.

I can't help thinking also that the idea of giving sacrificially is to support people who have even less, not to give the preacher the chance to wear a $5000 suit and fly first class.

I agree with your closing statement; the story is not to encourage selfless giving to keep a building pretty or to make a preacher rich it is, if it is intended as a lesson, intended to teach that flaunting your giving is vanity and nothing more but giving when you have very little is true generosity. It is odd however that the poor widow gives to the same "offering box" as the rich and the box is likely for the Levites and priests or for the upkeep of the magnificent temple that Herod started and they was finished after Herod died and that Jesus said would be torn down so that one stone will not be left upon another. I can't help but think that Mark's intention is deeper than a lesson about giving.

 

[Arsenios]

There's a story in the gospel about Jesus and the apostles watching the people as they give their donations to the temple offering boxes. The temple offerings were used for the upkeep of the building and possibly for the payment of the Levites and priests. The story goes like this:

[41] And Jesus, sitting opposite the offertory box, considered the way in which the crowd cast coins into the offertory, and that many of the wealthy cast in a great deal. [42] But when one poor widow had arrived, she put in two small coins, which is a quarter. [43] And calling together his disciples, he said to them: “Amen I say to you, that this poor widow has put in more than all those who contributed to the offertory. [44] For they all gave from their abundance, yet truly, she gave from her scarcity, even all that she had, her entire living.”
(Mark 12:41-44)​

Is Jesus holding out the example of the widow as one for Christians to follow - give away all that you have for the upkeep of the church buildings and payment of the church's employees?

Is that what the text says or intends to teach?

No...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't see it as saying we must give everything away, simply that God looks at what we give compared to what we have, whereas as humans we tend to look at the bit after the currency sign. We are prone to see a donation for $100,000 as being hugely generous and more impressive than a donation for $1,000 but if that $100g came from someone like Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos the chances are they didn't even notice the change to their budget. To them it's pocket change even if to the rest of us it is a lot of money.

God may call us to literally give everything away, I just don't see this particular situation as being an instruction to do that.

What would you like to hold back from God?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not so sure that it teaches anything about giving. It may be included in the gospel primarily to show how easy and superficial public religion is. The widow is not presented as a model to follow she is a contrast to the easy and superficial giving of the wealthy. The lesson may be that "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven".

It teaches everything about giving...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not even sure the thing about the camel is relevant to this particular note. What I see is that God is more impressed by people who truly give, rather than people who give in a way that doesn't cost them anything to speak of, but doing it in a manner that's more about them than about the giving. Waving a wad of $100 bills before putting them in the collection might impress people who see just how much you are giving, but it doesn't impress God who knows just how many more of them you have in your bank account.

I also see a parallel with the widow in 1Kings 17, who made Elijah a cake despite it using up everything she had. What we have to give might be virtually nothing in human terms but if we give it to God he can use it. Just like the widow's last scraps of oil and flour, just like the widow's mite, just like the person who gave up their lunch to feed the 5000, God can make it enough.

Ananias and his wife is more relevant...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The passage about the Widow's mite is helpful at this point. It is a whole chapter in the gospel according to saint Mark and it covers many things but the story is set among these other stories for a reason that saint Mark has.

Mark Chapter 12

The Parable of the Tenants

1 And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower, and leased it to tenants and went into another country. 2 When the season came, he sent a servant to the tenants to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they struck him on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 And he sent another, and him they killed. And so with many others: some they beat, and some they killed. 6 He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Have you not read this Scripture:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”


12 And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away.

Paying Taxes to Caesar

13 And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. 14 And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone’s opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?” 15 But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar’s.” 17 Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him.

The Sadducees Ask About the Resurrection

18 And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. 22 And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

The Great Commandment

28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Whose Son Is the Christ?

35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet.”’


37 David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?” And the great throng heard him gladly.

Beware of the Scribes

38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39 and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

The Widow’s Offering

41 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”​

Sorry about the link/references that are still in the text, there were so many I did not remove them before posting this reply. I hope they do not distract too much. It may be useful to use your printed bible ... I edited the post, wrote a small "regular expression" and removed the unwanted references.

"But she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Giving out some of one's surplus won't cut it...

You are either all in, or not...

The passage is not about rich people, but about being all in for Salvation...

It is about totally trusting God to provide...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That's a good point - in the context of vv38-40 it shifts focus onto the kind of religious leaders who demand a certain amount, and who do things more for show than anything else. Even so, I think the idea that God judges based on what we don't give as much as on what we do give is still there - as Jesus said, the widow put in more than the rich people because she gave everything she had. It's easy to throw $1000 donations around if you're a multimillionaire but it's much more of a sacrifice to put $10 in the plate and end up literally not knowing if you'll be eating tonight.

I can't help thinking also that the idea of giving sacrificially is to support people who have even less, not to give the preacher the chance to wear a $5000 suit and fly first class.

It is about trusting God to provide.

"Give us this day our daily bread..."


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I agree with your closing statement; the story is not to encourage selfless giving to keep a building pretty or to make a preacher rich it is, if it is intended as a lesson, intended to teach that flaunting your giving is vanity and nothing more but giving when you have very little is true generosity. It is odd however that the poor widow gives to the same "offering box" as the rich and the box is likely for the Levites and priests or for the upkeep of the magnificent temple that Herod started and they was finished after Herod died and that Jesus said would be torn down so that one stone will not be left upon another. I can't help but think that Mark's intention is deeper than a lesson about giving.

It is not a social statement about not flaunting wealth...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat





A.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

It is about trusting God to provide.

"Give us this day our daily bread..."


Arsenios

As an anecdote - Years ago I was down to nothing. I was transitioning from one job to another and had not received my last check from the previous job (they were holding onto it for half-legitimate reasons, half out of spite - long story...). I'd tried all I could think of to get hold of it. Nothing. I hadn't yet been paid from my new job.

On one particular Sunday where the 'praise team' was singing a song out of context ("Give and it shall come back to you....") as a prompt to come forward with your tithe/offering as the Pastor watched to see who came up, I had my last five bucks in my pocket. I duly went up and put it in figuring "what's five bucks gonna do for me anyway..."

The next day the 'significant other' of the admin assistant from my previous job came to my work and said "C.A. wanted me to give this to you" - it was my check.

 

[Arsenios]

As an anecdote - Years ago I was down to nothing. I was transitioning from one job to another and had not received my last check from the previous job (they were holding onto it for half-legitimate reasons, half out of spite - long story...). I'd tried all I could think of to get hold of it. Nothing. I hadn't yet been paid from my new job.

On one particular Sunday where the 'praise team' was singing a song out of context ("Give and it shall come back to you....") as a prompt to come forward with your tithe/offering as the Pastor watched to see who came up, I had my last five bucks in my pocket. I duly went up and put it in figuring "what's five bucks gonna do for me anyway..."

The next day the 'significant other' of the admin assistant from my previous job came to my work and said "C.A. wanted me to give this to you" - it was my check.

You did well...

Even though your justification - $5 won't make all that much of a difference anyway - definitely qualified as lame...

But you gave it - That is the important thing...

And God wanted you to see the result to know the teaching...

Other times you don't get the payoff so directly...

Glory to God in all things...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

As an anecdote - Years ago I was down to nothing. I was transitioning from one job to another and had not received my last check from the previous job (they were holding onto it for half-legitimate reasons, half out of spite - long story...). I'd tried all I could think of to get hold of it. Nothing. I hadn't yet been paid from my new job.

On one particular Sunday where the 'praise team' was singing a song out of context ("Give and it shall come back to you....") as a prompt to come forward with your tithe/offering as the Pastor watched to see who came up, I had my last five bucks in my pocket. I duly went up and put it in figuring "what's five bucks gonna do for me anyway..."

The next day the 'significant other' of the admin assistant from my previous job came to my work and said "C.A. wanted me to give this to you" - it was my check.

It may seem a little sceptical to say it but there is no obvious relationship between your giving the last $5 and your receipt of the check the next day. But the story could be read as if there was a relationship between the two events. And some folk think it is "faith" to attribute such coincidences to God providential works in creation or even to answered prayer or a miracle.