The promise of the Holy Spirit

[Can't think of a name]

This was the prototype of our own baptism, with the receiving of the Holy Spirit:

The baptism of Jesus. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, [and] coming upon Him," (Matthew 3:16, NASB).


The Old Testament:
"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:25-27, NASB).

Baptism can be done by anyone because it's God who is doing the actual work, using the hands of man and the water that He attaches the promises to.



"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5, NASB).

That's baptism. There is but one baptism. Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Water baptism did not exist in the Old Testament.

Rather, the concept of pouring water or sprinkling it over someone is a METAPHOR for a spiritual experience.

regeneration is a theological idea that denotes a spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit or God. A pure heart is also the same thing, for a washed heart is regenerated, not by H2O but by the SPIRIT. The pure in heart and the washing of regeneration refer to spiritual realities and not physical matter.

The quotes you gave do not say that water baptism saves people. If you have no regeneration by the Spirit you have had nothing but a bath in water. I don't understand why you believe H2O is God.

 

[Frankj]

This was the prototype of our own baptism, with the receiving of the Holy Spirit:

The baptism of Jesus. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, [and] coming upon Him," (Matthew 3:16, NASB).


The Old Testament:
"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:25-27, NASB).

Baptism can be done by anyone because it's God who is doing the actual work, using the hands of man and the water that He attaches the promises to.



"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5, NASB).

That's baptism. There is but one baptism. Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

This is pretty much how I think about it, but I recognize that the main reason I believe that way is because I was brought up as a Lutheran and that is the way I was taught.

But you do bring up something important that I had not considered before, that is that baptism through the Spirit was a part of old testament baptism and is equally a valid imbuing of the Holy Spirit on Jews as well as Christians through Baptism.

I do recall Jesus teaches entering heaven through righteousness in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, and this took place before he was sacrificed for out sins.

Always more to consider, more to think about.

 

[Lamb]

Water baptism did not exist in the Old Testament.

Rather, the concept of pouring water or sprinkling it over someone is a METAPHOR for a spiritual experience.

regeneration is a theological idea that denotes a spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit or God. A pure heart is also the same thing, for a washed heart is regenerated, not by H2O but by the SPIRIT. The pure in heart and the washing of regeneration refer to spiritual realities and not physical matter.

The quotes you gave do not say that water baptism saves people. If you have no regeneration by the Spirit you have had nothing but a bath in water. I don't understand why you believe H2O is God.

There was a water cleansing ritual in the Old Testament that was a foreshadowing of our baptism.

You keep focusing on "water" instead of God's promise that He attaches to those waters. Jesus instituted baptism and told the disciples how to make disciples...by baptising and teaching. If baptism and teaching were ineffective, then disciples would not have been made at all.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism saves.

It's not just water, it's God working in those waters. My pastor says it's as if Christ is reaching out through the waters of baptism and clothing you with Himself.

This is pretty much how I think about it, but I recognize that the main reason I believe that way is because I was brought up as a Lutheran and that is the way I was taught.

But you do bring up something important that I had not considered before, that is that baptism through the Spirit was a part of old testament baptism and is equally a valid imbuing of the Holy Spirit on Jews as well as Christians through Baptism.

I do recall Jesus teaches entering heaven through righteousness in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, and this took place before he was sacrificed for out sins.

Always more to consider, more to think about.

I've been trying to remember all morning the one thing I wanted to add and it finally came to me...

Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John was baptized as a baby and said the statement (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9:3) : "Eighty-six years I have served him, and he never did me any wrong. How can I blaspheme my King who saved me?"

Polycarp said he was a servant of God for 86 years...and said it when he was 86 years old. That's a sure sign of evidence that baptism effects what God says it does. It washes away sins, clothes us in Christ and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, just like the scriptures say.

 

[Can't think of a name]

There was a water cleansing ritual in the Old Testament that was a foreshadowing of our baptism.

You keep focusing on "water" instead of God's promise that He attaches to those waters. Jesus instituted baptism and told the disciples how to make disciples...by baptising and teaching. If baptism and teaching were ineffective, then disciples would not have been made at all.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism saves.

It's not just water, it's God working in those waters. My pastor says it's as if Christ is reaching out through the waters of baptism and clothing you with Himself.



I've been trying to remember all morning the one thing I wanted to add and it finally came to me...

Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John was baptized as a baby and said the statement (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9:3) : "Eighty-six years I have served him, and he never did me any wrong. How can I blaspheme my King who saved me?"

Polycarp said he was a servant of God for 86 years...and said it when he was 86 years old. That's a sure sign of evidence that baptism effects what God says it does. It washes away sins, clothes us in Christ and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, just like the scriptures say.

1 Peter 3:21 isn't the end of the context. He goes on to say immediately that "it is not a washing of the body".

 

[Lamb]

1 Peter 3:21 isn't the end of the context. He goes on to say immediately that "it is not a washing of the body".

That's because your sins are being washed away by God in baptism. A baptism isn't meant to cleanse the body. It washes away your sin, clothes you in Christ's righteousness and gives you the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's all God's work.

 

[Can't think of a name]

That's because your sins are being washed away by God in baptism. A baptism isn't meant to cleanse the body. It washes away your sin, clothes you in Christ's righteousness and gives you the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's all God's work.

You are trying to make water baptism a requirement for salvation. If you aren't, explain how you aren't.

 

[Frankj]

To all but no one in particular: Consider water baptism as a matter of obedience if not as a requirement for or of receiving the Holy Spirit (it can be argued that the Holy Spirit can be received without water baptism).

The question them becomes one of should all calling themselves Christian be water baptized to show their obedience to Jesus (Christ)?

Matthew 28:18-20 "Jesus came to them and said: I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth! Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you. I will be with you always, even until the end of the world."

Does this change your view, or understanding, of being baptized?

 

[Lamb]

Jesus said:
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20.

Jesus instituted baptism, and even told His disciples that's how they were to go out to all nations and make new disciples (baptizing and teaching). Since it was instituted by Jesus, we know that our Lord is the one at work in baptism.

Here is another verse saying the same thing:
Mark 16:15-16. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

In Biblical accounts of Baptism, there was not a lengthy delay between conversion and Baptism (e.g. Acts 2, Acts 8:26-40, Acts 9:-17, Acts 22:1-16, Acts 16:33). They went hand in hand.

What does baptism do for us:

Galatians 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 22:16. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.
Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Titus 3:5. He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Eph. 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-10. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.


There is one baptism, not two separate ones:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism Ephesians 4:5

Don't focus on the water, but the promises that are attached, as per the verses above. God is at work in baptism, not yourself. "Be baptized" is passive meaning you aren't doing something, but something is being done to you. That's God at work.

Baptism is connected to the cross where your sins were won! God uses those waters of baptism to give you the promises He wants to bring to you: washing away your sin, clothing you in Jesus and giving you the gift of the Holy Spirit. It's not a new forgiveness, it's the forgiveness won at the cross and given to you. It's Jesus reaching through the waters to clothe you in His righteousness. It's the Holy Spirit dwelling within you to keep you in the truth faith and sanctifying you.

God is so wonderful to us to bring us those blessings in baptism! One baptism, not two.

 

[NewCreation435]

the contrast between the way the church seemed in Acts and it does today is significant though. It does not seem like believers or those claiming to be believers are very different in any aspect from non believers. It makes me wonder why. The church seems to lack so much power today. I will include myself in that as well. Maybe it is because people try to live the christian life under their own power instead of by the Spirit?

 

[Lamb]

the contrast between the way the church seemed in Acts and it does today is significant though. It does not seem like believers or those claiming to be believers are very different in any aspect from non believers. It makes me wonder why. The church seems to lack so much power today. I will include myself in that as well. Maybe it is because people try to live the christian life under their own power instead of by the Spirit?

Maybe? Maybe not? I mean, I read through Paul's letters in the bible and he's constantly guiding them back on track?

I think that fighting the Holy Spirit is kind of what we tend to do because we still live in these sinful bodies. That's why I'm glad that He won't leave us. He's going to keep working within us until we pass away or until Jesus returns for Judgment Day.