"the one who stands firm to the end will be saved"...

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Does this statement of Jesus from Matthew 24:13 mean that those who won't stand firm to the end will be lost?

 

[Lamb]

Does this statement of Jesus from Matthew 24:13 mean that those who won't stand firm to the end will be lost?

Those who turn away from our Lord will be lost. They are the ones who aren't standing firm in faith.

 

[Stephen]

Those who turn away from our Lord will be lost. They are the ones who aren't standing firm in faith.

What about the ones who are wobbling?

 

[Lamb]

What about the ones who are wobbling?

We either have faith or we don't for salvation. Even the smallest amount of faith (which has been given to a person by God Himself) saves. There are warnings to men to not turn away from God and discard the faith He has given them.

 

[Stephen]

We either have faith or we don't for salvation. Even the smallest amount of faith (which has been given to a person by God Himself) saves. There are warnings to men to not turn away from God and discard the faith He has given them.

Do you have evidence for that.

 

[Lamb]

Do you have evidence for that.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God.

 

[Stephen]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God.

I don't see that saying even the smallest amount of faith saves us, or that if we lose most of our faith we are saved if a tiny remnant is left.

Also stand firm to the end implies there is something we have to be doing until the end.

 

[Lamb]

I don't see that saying even the smallest amount of faith saves us, or that if we lose most of our faith we are saved if a tiny remnant is left.

Also stand firm to the end implies there is something we have to be doing until the end.

"saved through faith" that's it right there. When you stand firm, you remain where you are...in faith.

 

[Stephen]

"saved through faith" that's it right there. When you stand firm, you remain where you are...in faith.

Yes I see that. It's the effect of less than standing firm and the - even the smallest amount of faith saves that I am querying.
It's not all or nothing.

 

[Lamb]

Yes I see that. It's the effect of less than standing firm and the - even the smallest amount of faith saves that I am querying.
It's not all or nothing.

The amount of faith is what you're stuck on? Don't you see that the object of faith is Jesus Christ our Savior? Having Jesus means having salvation. That's why the amount is not important when you read Ephesians 2:8 but also John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Albion]

Yes I see that. It's the effect of less than standing firm and the - even the smallest amount of faith saves that I am querying.
It's not all or nothing.

That's rather an unusual translation of the verse. I can see how "standing firm" might raise the question of different degrees of commitment. By contrast, "endure" or "persevere" don't suggest that to me at all.

 

[Josiah]

Yes I see that. It's the effect of less than standing firm and the - even the smallest amount of faith saves that I am querying.
It's not all or nothing.

Stephen,


Maybe this will help....

God GAVE me physical life. I was born (by emergency C-Section) on January 23 1988 - very premature, so maybe God GAVE me life perhaps on May 23, 1987 (or so). Follow? I DID nothing. I RECEIEVED it - the divine gift of life, purely by grace, the work of God (although God EMPLOYED some means, supplied NOT by me). Now, once alive (by pure gift, as an absolute blessing, grace alone) I need to stay alive. I am not to set myself on fire.... I am not to shoot myself in the head... I am not to purposely harm my life via what I eat or drink or do. The Fifth Commandment applies ALSO to me and to my life. Follow?

Now, apply that here. The Bible insists that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of spiritual life (purely GIFT), the Creed says that "we believe in the Holy Spirit - the Lord and GIVER of Life" (that's spiritual life it's talking about in that section). "GIVER' means He GIVES it. The Bible also insists that Jesus is the Savior (thus, it's Jesus who does the saving). I was given faith (I believe at my emergency baptism by a nun at a Catholic hospital - but we may disagree on the WHEN) but whenever/however it was given to me, that faith is a GIFT.... (I wasn't even conscience, or even breathing when I was baptized), I became a Child of God, I was justified (in the narrow sense). BUT at that moment, I BEGAN a life journey, a spiritual journey empowered by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace (Word and Sacraments, especially), via the life of the church. I am to become ever more holy.... ever more loving.... ever more Christ-life.... ever more LIVING as the CHILD OF GOD I am (by pure adoption). SOOOOOOOO, did I give myself spiritual life? Did I save myself? Did I make myself a Child of God? No.... I was "DEAD in my sin" the Bible clearly states.... "no one can even say the words 'Jesus is Lord'.... no one TAKES anything from God! God GIVES His good gifts. Of course, that's not the "end all" of everything.... my Baptism made me His Own but His Own was not finished and is to stay His own. See my signature line - YES we are justified (narrow sense) by works, but not our own (so that Jesus is not the Savior, God gives nothing - we ripped it from Him), it's a GIFT.





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[Stephen]

Stephen,


Maybe this will help....

God GAVE me physical life. I was born (by emergency C-Section) on January 23 1988 - very premature, so maybe God GAVE me life perhaps on May 23, 1987 (or so). Follow? I DID nothing. I RECEIEVED it - the divine gift of life, purely by grace, the work of God (although God EMPLOYED some means, supplied NOT by me). Now, once alive (by pure gift, as an absolute blessing, grace alone) I need to stay alive. I am not to set myself on fire.... I am not to shoot myself in the head... I am not to purposely harm my life via what I eat or drink or do. The Fifth Commandment applies ALSO to me and to my life. Follow?

Now, apply that here. The Bible insists that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of spiritual life (purely GIFT), the Creed says that "we believe in the Holy Spirit - the Lord and GIVER of Life" (that's spiritual life it's talking about in that section). "GIVER' means He GIVES it. The Bible also insists that Jesus is the Savior (thus, it's Jesus who does the saving). I was given faith (I believe at my emergency baptism by a nun at a Catholic hospital - but we may disagree on the WHEN) but whenever/however it was given to me, that faith is a GIFT.... (I wasn't even conscience, or even breathing when I was baptized), I became a Child of God, I was justified (in the narrow sense). BUT at that moment, I BEGAN a life journey, a spiritual journey empowered by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace (Word and Sacraments, especially), via the life of the church. I am to become ever more holy.... ever more loving.... ever more Christ-life.... ever more LIVING as the CHILD OF GOD I am (by pure adoption). SOOOOOOOO, did I give myself spiritual life? Did I save myself? Did I make myself a Child of God? No.... I was "DEAD in my sin" the Bible clearly states.... "no one can even say the words 'Jesus is Lord'.... no one TAKES anything from God! God GIVES His good gifts. Of course, that's not the "end all" of everything.... my Baptism made me His Own but His Own was not finished and is to stay His own. See my signature line - YES we are justified (narrow sense) by works, but not our own (so that Jesus is not the Savior, God gives nothing - we ripped it from Him), it's a GIFT.





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Hi Josiah,
I don't disagree with what you say. But are you also saying that once you received that gift of faith you could never lose it?

 

[Stephen]

The amount of faith is what you're stuck on? Don't you see that the object of faith is Jesus Christ our Savior? Having Jesus means having salvation. That's why the amount is not important when you read Ephesians 2:8 but also John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I was baptised as a baby, went to catholic school etc.etc. But in my late teens I effectively became agnostic.
Had I lost my faith? If I had died then would I have not gone to heaven?

 

[Lamb]

I was baptised as a baby, went to catholic school etc.etc. But in my late teens I effectively became agnostic.
Had I lost my faith? If I had died then would I have not gone to heaven?

Only God can truly answer that question because I can't see if you have faith or not. It's possible you had fully rejected God and turned away from Him losing your salvation. But it seems that maybe you hadn't since God brought you back.

 

[mailmandan]

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

To be honest, I find that statement to be absurd. Why were they not of them? Did they choose to not be of them?

 

[Josiah]

Hi Josiah,
I don't disagree with what you say. But are you also saying that once you received that gift of faith you could never lose it?

Nope. That's a few of a tiny minority of radical Calvinists. I've addressed "OSAS" at length in other threads.

I'm not surprised that you don't disagree with me..... my family is very Catholic and none of them disagree with that pov. But of course, the RCC excommunicated Luther for it and repudiated it at the Council of Trent. But in terms of CATHOLICS, I've found much agreement. I discussed it once with a Catholic priest online at another site, and he admitted that the Lutheran position is very agreeable to him, he simply said Catholics call this "INITIAL grace".... and said in his view, the "problem" is mostly terminology: what Protestants call "justification" is quite different than what Protestants mean; he expressed the view that the CC's repudiation of Luther on this point was a "terrible misunderstanding" but I disagree. The Catholic Church knew EXACTLY what Luther meant but simply considered it heresy.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.


Blessings.


Josiah




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[Josiah]

Hi Josiah,
I don't disagree with what you say. But are you also saying that once you received that gift of faith you could never lose it?

Nope. That's a few of a tiny minority of radical Calvinists. I've addressed "OSAS" at length in other threads.

I'm not surprised that you don't disagree with me..... my family is very Catholic and none of them disagree with that pov. But of course, the RCC excommunicated Luther for it and repudiated it at the Council of Trent. But in terms of CATHOLICS, I've found much agreement. I discussed it once with a Catholic priest online at another site, and he admitted that the Lutheran position is very agreeable to him, he simply said Catholics call this "INITIAL grace".... and said in his view, the "problem" is mostly terminology: what Protestants call "justification" is quite different than what Protestants mean; he expressed the view that the CC's repudiation of Luther on this point was a "terrible misunderstanding" but I disagree. The Catholic Church knew EXACTLY what Luther meant but simply considered it heresy.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.


Blessings.


Josiah




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[Andrew]

Does this statement of Jesus from Matthew 24:13 mean that those who won't stand firm to the end will be lost?

Peter fell into the water because he was "of little faith" but he didn't drown, Jesus who called him to walk on water had rescued him..
later on when Jesus asks Peter who he believes He is, Peter confesses "You are Messiah, Son of the Living God", his faith had become a firm foundation of rock on which Christ is to set up His Church upon.
At the last supper Jesus says that everyone there will fall away from him, Peter assures Jesus that he will be the exception and not fall away as the others, Jesus tells him that he (Peter) will deny him three times before sunrise.
And so it happened that Peter denies being a disciple of Jesus, that he ever knew him, three times..
So what became of Peter who was the rock of the Church and fell away, thrice denying Christ?

Jesus forgave him on all three accounts by asking Peter three times if he loved Him, all three times Peter said yes.

If you love the Lord with all your heart mind and soul, even though you WILL fall again and again, He will never leave you!!