the meaning of Baptism

[Imalive]

I keep saying that when people say "are you saved?" and "do you have assurance of salvation?" and they get all worked up and say I believe in salvation by works. Never been able to figure it out. Must be a "protestant thing".

On one hand you say baptism saves us and then: are you saved? We're saved in the end. Your spirit gets saved at once and if you stay in Jesus and work out your election you have assurance that you're elected saved born again whatever. Baptism saves us. So it's baptism in the Spirit. He's the seal.

https://www.gotquestions.org/assurance-salvation.html

 

[MoreCoffee]

On one hand you say baptism saves us and then: are you saved? We're saved in the end. Your spirit gets saved at once and if you stay in Jesus and work out your election you have assurance that you're elected saved born again whatever. Baptism saves us. So it's baptism in the Spirit. He's the seal.

https://www.gotquestions.org/assurance-salvation.html

I'm consistent. Baptism saves but salvation is a life long journey and isn't complete until the last judgement and resurrection of the just. Jesus said so in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Imalive]

I'm consistent. Baptism saves but salvation is a life long journey and isn't complete until the last judgement and resurrection of the just. Jesus said so in Matthew 25:31-46.

Yes but 'are you saved' means have you gotten a new heart. Weird thing to ask someone who says theyre saved by baptism btw.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes but 'are you saved' means have you gotten a new heart. Weird thing to ask someone who says theyre saved by baptism btw.

I am baptised. That would be easier to answer. "yes, I am baptised" Peter says "baptism ... saves you"

 

[MennoSota]

I'm consistent. Baptism saves but salvation is a life long journey and isn't complete until the last judgement and resurrection of the just. Jesus said so in Matthew 25:31-46.

So...in your world...baptism gets you onto the salvation train, but you have to keep eating Jesus body, drink his blood, confess sins, etc., etc.,etc, in order to maintain your spot on the salvation train. You can not know, until judgment day, whether you have done enough to get a thumbs up from God. You sit on the train, crossing your fingers that the scales fall in your favor, hoping for a good verdict.
You realize that you could be a good Muslim, don't you? That's the same thing they believe. Just do more good works than bad and hope at the judgment day that the scales fall in your favor.
You have created your own hadith, MC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So...in your world...baptism gets you onto the salvation train, but you have to keep eating Jesus body, drink his blood, confess sins, etc., etc.,etc, in order to maintain your spot on the salvation train. You can not know, until judgment day, whether you have done enough to get a thumbs up from God. You sit on the train, crossing your fingers that the scales fall in your favor, hoping for a good verdict.
You realize that you could be a good Muslim, don't you? That's the same thing they believe. Just do more good works than bad and hope at the judgment day that the scales fall in your favor.
You have created your own hadith, MC.

Stop writing these nonsense posts. It makes you look bigoted and ignorant.

 

[MennoSota]

I am baptised. That would be easier to answer. "yes, I am baptised" Peter says "baptism ... saves you"

Water baptism? You misunderstand the scriptures MC. Because of your poor hermaneutics you have cut off the head of the church in your gospel.

 

[MennoSota]

Stop writing these nonsense posts. It makes you look bigoted and ignorant.

That is your rebuttal?
I laid out the problem with your position and why it cannot possibly be correct. You just attack me.
Can you actually address the problem I have exposed in your theology?

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is your rebuttal?
I laid out the problem with your position and why it cannot possibly be correct. You just attack me.
Can you actually address the problem I have exposed in your theology?

A number of your posts have content that is far too stupid to bother refuting.

 

[MennoSota]

A number of your posts have content that is far too stupid to bother refuting.

I think you need a break.
I have addressed the problem with your theology, especially as it relates to infant baptism. Please address the issue. All you are doing is attacking me personally, which the moderators can address.
My point regarding the similarities of your faith and the faith of Islam are based upon your own comments regarding infant baptism. There is much similarity as both require good works for salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think you need a break.
I have addressed the problem with your theology, especially as it relates to infant baptism. Please address the issue. All you are doing is attacking me personally, which the moderators can address.
My point regarding the similarities of your faith and the faith of Islam are based upon your own comments regarding infant baptism. There is much similarity as both require good works for salvation.

Your posts do not raise any issues related to the meaning of baptism. They mainly contain rants about anything but the meaning of baptism.

 

[MennoSota]

Your posts do not raise any issues related to the meaning of baptism. They mainly contain rants about anything but the meaning of baptism.

That's not true.
I have addressed specific Bible passages dealing with baptism. I posted a link to the verses where the word baptism is used so that we could study it. I am the one who brought up the greek word and its meaning.
It's clear that you are upset that I compare your theology of salvation to Islams theology of salvation. The similarities are there. The difference is that you start the process of works at infant baptism while Muslims raise their children via the teaching of the imam. Both, however, hope at the end that God judges the good works as more than the bad works and thus grants merciful salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's not true.
I have addressed specific Bible passages dealing with baptism. I posted a link to the verses where the word baptism is used so that we could study it. I am the one who brought up the greek word and its meaning.
It's clear that you are upset that I compare your theology of salvation to Islams theology of salvation. The similarities are there. The difference is that you start the process of works at infant baptism while Muslims raise their children via the teaching of the imam. Both, however, hope at the end that God judges the good works as more than the bad works and thus grants merciful salvation.

The thread is about the meaning of baptism. You haven't said what baptism means have you? You keep talking about babies and sumberging people. The meaning of baptism is not asking what the word means. That's trivial. It is asking what significance baptism has in Christian theology. What does it mean to be baptised. Not what does the word 'baptise' mean.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Look at the first post in the thread. It gives a Southern Baptist view of the meaning (significance) of baptism. It is not asking if we agree that the word 'baptism' means 'dip, immerse, wash etcetera'.

This statement is from the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000. A document that is from a Southern Baptist perspective.

"Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper."

Do you agree or disagree?

If it is an act of obedience and symbolic does that mean baptism must be by immersion?

Do you identify baptism as a testimony to others about what has happened to the person internally? What then should we make of infant baptism?

Scriptures that were referenced in this section which also includes a statement about the Lord's Supper are:
Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

The whole thing is http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

 

[MennoSota]

The thread is about the meaning of baptism. You haven't said what baptism means have you? You keep talking about babies and sumberging people. The meaning of baptism is not asking what the word means. That's trivial. It is asking what significance baptism has in Christian theology. What does it mean to be baptised. Not what does the word 'baptise' mean.

Yes I did.
Baptizo means to immerse or dip. That's it.
Thus, the ceremony of water baptism is just that.
Peter tells us that water means nothing. Thus the baptism Peter is referring to is the immersion the Spirit does in placing us into Christ. That baptism has no connection to water baptism. Water is just a symbol of what the Spirit has already done. Peter tells us this.
Your problem is that you cannot separate baptism from water and thus you force verses to mean what they don't say and say what they don't mean. You exhibit poor hermaneutics and then get mad when it gets pointed out.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes I did.
Baptizo means to immerse or dip. That's it.
Thus, the ceremony of water baptism is just that.

That's it? It's a bath then. Getting wet and nothing more. Okay. If that's how you see it then okay. Now we know. We can move on.

Peter tells us that water means nothing. Thus the baptism Peter is referring to is the immersion the Spirit does in placing us into Christ. That baptism has no connection to water baptism. Water is just a symbol of what the Spirit has already done. Peter tells us this.
Your problem is that you cannot separate baptism from water and thus you force verses to mean what they don't say and say what they don't mean. You exhibit poor hermaneutics and then get mad when it gets pointed out.

 

[MennoSota]

That's it? It's a bath then. Getting wet and nothing more. Okay. If that's how you see it then okay. Now we know. We can move on.

I can move on. You still have to address the shortcomings of your view that infant baptism gets you a ticket on board the salvation train (a train that may or may not lead to salvation, unless your good works outweigh your bad works and God the Judge shows mercy on the final judgment day.).
You hedge your bet. You say baptism saves, but then you say "not until the final judgment, but infant baptism is the first step in a series of works a person must do in order for God to judge with a thumbs up.
Muslims teach their own version of works with the hopes that God will give a thumbs up at the last judgment. Their version is called the hadith, which means "the way." Your version of getting God's thumbs up and Islams version of getting God's thumbs up is based upon the works you do. The only difference is the path you take to get to the judgment day. Your hadith is different from theirs, but both require the judgment of works for salvation to be attained.
You preach a different gospel than what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I can move on. You still have to address the shortcomings of your view that infant baptism gets you a ticket on board the salvation train (a train that may or may not lead to salvation, unless your good works outweigh your bad works and God the Judge shows mercy on the final judgment day.).
You hedge your bet. You say baptism saves, but then you say "not until the final judgment, but infant baptism is the first step in a series of works a person must do in order for God to judge with a thumbs up.
Muslims teach their own version of works with the hopes that God will give a thumbs up at the last judgment. Their version is called the hadith, which means "the way." Your version of getting God's thumbs up and Islams version of getting God's thumbs up is based upon the works you do. The only difference is the path you take to get to the judgment day. Your hadith is different from theirs, but both require the judgment of works for salvation to be attained.
You preach a different gospel than what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

The meaning of baptism has a little to do with who ought to be baptised but indirectly. You are fixated on babies. It's a red herring for this thread. This thread is about the meaning of baptism.

 

[atpollard]

Baptism does what circumcision use to do.

I can't find anything in Scripture that EXPLICITLY claims anything even close to that.

[For the record, that does not mean that it is wrong, just that it is not stated explicitly in Sola Scriptura.]

 

[MennoSota]

The meaning of baptism has a little to do with who ought to be baptised but indirectly. You are fixated on babies. It's a red herring for this thread. This thread is about the meaning of baptism.

You wrote:

I'm consistent. Baptism saves but salvation is a life long journey and isn't complete until the last judgement and resurrection of the just. Jesus said so in Matthew 25:31-46.

I have shown you the error in your reasoning.
It doesn't matter if the water baptism takes place as an infant or anytime on the timeline. Water baptism doesn't save. You are not judged for your good and bad works in order to enter heaven. If we were, all humanity would spend eternity in hell. We are judged solely upon whether God has graciously chosen to adopt us, atone for our sins and immerse us in Christ. If God has chosen to do that; He grants us pardon. If God has not chosen to do that; He rightly sends us to hell. Has God chosen to adopt you, MC?