The Law cannot forgive

[Lamb]

Where the confusion lies, and where I think we've disagreed, is in my saying that our lives, lived out in faith, is evidence of the Gospel to a lost world.

There can be evidence that we are the faithful to God to show to the world...

Yet, we can't rely on how WE live our lives to prove to the world that we are the faithful because even the most faithful men fall...look at King David and his adultery. He's a prime example of a good believer just being a sinful human being like the rest of us. We all have our sins and the world is so quick to see them and throw it back in our faces.

Reading back on the quote of my OP I don't see why you would even bring this up about evidence as a believer when I wasn't even mentioning that. I referred to the people who insist that by grace through faith alone isn't enough for them to have eternal life.

Edited to add that this is described in the Lutheran Book of Concord (the Lutheran Confessions)
Anything that preaches concerning our sins and God's wrath, let it be done how or when it will, that is all a preaching of the Law.

Therefore [we shall set forth our meaning:] we unanimously believe, teach, and confess that the Law is properly a divine doctrine, in which the righteous, immutable will of God is revealed, what is to be the quality of man in his nature, thoughts, words, and works, in order that he may be pleasing and acceptable to God;

 

[NewCreation435]

I can't baptize myself. It's God who baptizes. It still connects us to the cross and the forgiveness won there, giving us faith. Baptism is not Law but Gospel since God does it and remember that it's in the passive "be baptized".

no it is not passive. If you are baptized you agree to be baptized and go to the priest or pastor and voluntarily take part in the process. It is an act of obedience and as such it is an action you take or are a voluntary part of. And by saying you need to be baptized in order to be saved your adding to the cross of Christ.

 

[Lamb]

no it is not passive. If you are baptized you agree to be baptized and go to the priest or pastor and voluntarily take part in the process. It is an act of obedience and as such it is an action you take or are a voluntary part of. And by saying you need to be baptized in order to be saved your adding to the cross of Christ.

I really don't wish for this to be another baptism thread.

Baptism is God's work...it's one of His ways of delivering the work of the cross directly to us. Any wanting to be baptized comes from the Holy Spirit leading man to do it. Man's sinful self would much rather run away.

 

[NewCreation435]

Baptism isn't a work we do.

Regarding Jesus baptism
Matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

If it were passive then why did Jesus say this? Jesus was an active participant in his baptism. He went to John.

 

[Lamb]

Regarding Jesus baptism
Matthew 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

If it were passive then why did Jesus say this? Jesus was an active participant in his baptism. He went to John.

That was the beginning of Jesus' mission here on earth. That's why He said it. In His baptism He was baptized with our sins. In our baptism we are washed away of those sins.

I started a new thread for this topic https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?8221-Why-was-Jesus-baptized&p=181555#post181555

 

[Josiah]

1. Baptism isn't something self does for self. No one I know ever baptized themselves. Frankly, I was not awake or even breathing at the time.


2. In Sacramental theology, Baptism is a MEANS OF GRACE. It is a MEANS by which GOD conveys blessing. An ancient thought going back to the very earliest church, it is the affirmation that while God CAN (and occasionally does) work by "fiat" (without any means, solely by His willing it) it seems He usually works through stuff. A universal teaching in Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist and Reformed communities, Luther referred to such as "Tools in the hands of the Carpenter." Tools - inanimate and powerless in and of themselves (like a hammer hanging on a wall), in the hands of the Carpenter, MIRACLES can be created. True - human effort is involved by the minister, but that's not the point. When your pastor preaches the gospel, there is EFFORT involved: he worked long and hard preparing and writing that sermon, he practiced it over and over, and he put 100% of all he had into the preaching of it. Preachers go home TIRED after church! Now, can God USE that message? YES! Can God extend a blessing (even saving faith and spiritual life) through that effort? YES! But WHO accomplished that blessing? The preacher or God? Do you credit the preacher for saving you or God THROUGH the preacher's message? Now... CAN God give faith just bing/bang - just cuz He wills it? Yup (think of John the Baptist in his mother's womb) but that seems rare. God COMMANDS us to GO.... to preach and teach, to evangelize and missionize, to love and serve... why? Because OUR effort saves? No. Because the Carpenter has a tool box.... He tends to work MEDIATELY, via means. Means Christians typically administer (thus, "ministers").


I hope that helps.


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no it is not passive. If you are baptized you agree to be baptized and go to the priest or pastor and voluntarily take part in the process.

Nope. That's rarely the case today and was almost never the case before the 16th Century.


Baptism is something GIVEN, not taken. Rather like circumcision (to which it is compared) or like the blood in the Tenth Plague of Egypt, parents do something for their kids, they bring their little ones to Him and do not hinder them. But the divine blessings received are no more the result of the PARENTS' effort than the divine blessings of your pastor's sermon are the result of HIS effort. God simply tends to use means (doesn't have it... doesn't always... but usually does). Christians are NOT forbidden to DO anything for others (love, serve, invite, tell, teach) indeed they are commanded to do much (The Great Commission, the Great Commandment), not because their administering the means ("ministers") saves but because God tends to use means in saving.

And by saying you need to be baptized in order to be saved

Who ever claimed that? Do you HAVE to teach your children about Christ for them to be saved? Do you HAVE to bring them to church? Can't they be saved if you never mention God? Does YOUR teaching and bringing save? Nope. But does that make it wrong to tell and bring? Can God use that telling and bringing?



I hope that helps.


- Josiah




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