The Law cannot forgive

[Lamb]

You would think it would be an obvious statement...The Law cannot forgive...but I've seen it countless times on forums where people might agree with me on that statement and then they go back to proclaim that they will gain eternal life by "doing" something. That doing could be trying to obey God, or doing good works, bearing fruit etc... They forget that because we live in sinful bodies that whatever we do is tarnished by sin and so we cannot obey fully and our good works are still tainted by sin. Does God accept sin?

God accepted the death of Christ on the cross and we know that because of His Resurrection. If the atonement had not been accepted Jesus would have lain there in the tomb to this day. But Jesus is God and pure and holy. The umblemished lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

The Law cannot forgive but Jesus' death on the cross does forgive.

So when you see someone pushing you to do something to gain eternal life say NO, the Law cannot forgive! When you're in despair thinking about Judgment Day and how you can't live up to God's expectations say, My works aren't good enough nor are they ever enough to give me eternal life but I am forgiven because of Jesus' death on the cross.

The Law cannot forgive but God forgives because of Jesus.

Here are some verses to ponder:

Ephesians 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."

Daniel 9:9 "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."

Isaiah 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more ..."

1 Peter 1:3 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Acts 13:38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you."

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Josiah]

Correct...

The Law can do two things:
1) Condemn, rebuke, kill.... drive us to our knees
2) Guide our lives - never to fulfillment, however.

The Law CANNOT save (well, IF we DO it perfectly from conception to death - which only One did) and it cannot forgive, only the Gospel can do that.

 

[Lamb]

Correct...

The Law can do two things:
1) Condemn, rebuke, kill.... drive us to our knees
2) Guide our lives - never to fulfillment, however.

The Law CANNOT save (well, IF we DO it perfectly from conception to death - which only One did) and it cannot forgive, only the Gospel can do that.

Well, as Lutherans we believe the Law has 3 uses
Curb
Mirror
Guide

It always accuses.

It can't save.

 

[Josiah]

It really comes down to this (it ain't that complicated)...


WHO is the Savior?


If the answer is JESUS then Jesus is the Savior. Jesus saves. Jesus does the saving. It is the result of HIS will, HIS heart, HIS love, HIS holiness, HIS righteousness, HIS works.... HIS perfect live, HIS death on the Cross, HIS resurrection victory from the Tomb.... it's not me. Not at all, not a bit, not now, not ever. I may have some OTHER role in some OTHER thing but Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken.


If the answer is ME then I'm the Savior. I save. I do the saving. It is the result of MY will, MY heart, MY love, MY holiness, MY righteousness, MY works, MY decision, MY chanting of the Sinner's Prayer, MY coming on down.... it's not Jesus. Not at all, not a bit, not now, not ever. Jesus may have some OTHER role in some OTHER thing (maybe He's the Helper or Teacher or Inspiration or Possibility-Maker or Offerer) but I'm the Savior of me. Job's taken.


The devil works HARD... the devil works OVERTIME to get us to take our eyes off Jesus, off the Cross - and place them on self, on the mirror. The devil does his best (and he's good at it) to make Jesus as small and irrelevant as possible and make us as big and key as possible (MY feelings, MY thoughts, MY actions, MY desires, MY works). He doesn't need to do this with unbelievers (they are already his... they already have faith in self, they already are trusting in the Law) all his efforts are on Christians.


Who is the Savior? Answer that question CLEARLY, BOLDLY, SINGULARLY and the devil has no footing. Open a crack and he's cracked you open.


Is Jesus THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (the one who rescues, saves)?

Or is He the Possibility-Maker? Is He only the guy who makes it possible for you to save yourself, just the door opener to heaven, "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by your repentance and obedience and choices and feelings?" "Jesus saves no one but it makes it possible for all to be saved?"

OR is He just a Helper? Is He the divine HELP you gotta have? "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus will empower your salvation if you ask Him." "God will enable all that is needed."

OR is He just a Teacher? Just a Model/Example? Just divine Inspiration? He leads the way, He SHOWS the Way but is not The way?

If the devil can get you to entertain any of the "or's" - even just 0.01%, he's opened a crack, he's cracked you open. He will appeal to your pride, your need to control... He will make Jesus as irrelevant as He can in your life at that moment (the crack will widen; he's patient).... He will direct you to the Law and away from the Gospel....



- Josiah





.

 

[NewCreation435]

You would think it would be an obvious statement...The Law cannot forgive...but I've seen it countless times on forums where people might agree with me on that statement and then they go back to proclaim that they will gain eternal life by "doing" something. That doing could be trying to obey God, or doing good works, bearing fruit etc... They forget that because we live in sinful bodies that whatever we do is tarnished by sin and so we cannot obey fully and our good works are still tainted by sin. Does God accept sin?

God accepted the death of Christ on the cross and we know that because of His Resurrection. If the atonement had not been accepted Jesus would have lain there in the tomb to this day. But Jesus is God and pure and holy. The umblemished lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

The Law cannot forgive but Jesus' death on the cross does forgive.

So when you see someone pushing you to do something to gain eternal life say NO, the Law cannot forgive! When you're in despair thinking about Judgment Day and how you can't live up to God's expectations say, My works aren't good enough nor are they ever enough to give me eternal life but I am forgiven because of Jesus' death on the cross.

The Law cannot forgive but God forgives because of Jesus.

Here are some verses to ponder:

Ephesians 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."

Daniel 9:9 "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."

Isaiah 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more ..."

1 Peter 1:3 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

Acts 13:38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you."

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So does that include being baptized? If it grace alone by faith alone and not as a result of works

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

So does that include being baptized? If it grace alone by faith alone and not as a result of works

Baptism isn't a work we do.

 

[Lamb]

So does that include being baptized? If it grace alone by faith alone and not as a result of works

I can't baptize myself. It's God who baptizes. It still connects us to the cross and the forgiveness won there, giving us faith. Baptism is not Law but Gospel since God does it and remember that it's in the passive "be baptized".

 

[Josiah]

So does that include being baptized? If it grace alone by faith alone and not as a result of works

1. Baptism isn't something self does for self. No one I know ever baptized themselves. Frankly, I was not awake or even breathing at the time.

2. In Sacramental theology, Baptism is a MEANS OF GRACE. It is a MEANS by which GOD conveys blessing. An ancient thought going back to the very earliest church, it is the affirmation that while God CAN (and occasionally does) work by "fiat" (without any means, solely by His willing it) it seems He usually works through stuff. A universal teaching in Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist and Reformed communities, Luther referred to such as "Tools in the hands of the Carpenter." Tools - inanimate and powerless in and of themselves (like a hammer hanging on a wall), in the hands of the Carpenter, MIRACLES can be created. True - human effort is involved by the minister, but that's not the point. When your pastor preaches the gospel, there is EFFORT involved: he worked long and hard preparing and writing that sermon, he practiced it over and over, and he put 100% of all he had into the preaching of it. Preachers go home TIRED after church! Now, can God USE that message? YES! Can God extend a blessing (even saving faith and spiritual life) through that effort? YES! But WHO accomplished that blessing? The preacher or God? Do you credit the preacher for saving you or God THROUGH the preacher's message? Now... CAN God give faith just bing/bang - just cuz He wills it? Yup (think of John the Baptist in his mother's womb) but that seems rare. God COMMANDS us to GO.... to preach and teach, to evangelize and missionize, to love and serve... why? Because OUR effort saves? No. Because the Carpenter has a tool box.... He tends to work MEDIATELY, via means. Means Christians typically administer (thus, "ministers").


I hope that helps.


Blessings!


- Josiah

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

So the command of God Himself to "go and do likewise", what shall we do with that? And it was a command - no conditions were attached to it. No qualifiers. It is true that we CAN'T "do likewise" in the perfect way that Christ has done for us, but he has set the standard. And it's not a standard of the Law but of Grace. We should endeavor to follow it in all we do, but with the knowledge that we can't match it. But it is a standard for the Christian to follow. The parable of the talents comes to mind as an example of what I'm talking about. If we're given a standard (Talent) to follow, and bury it, Christ referred to as "wicked and slothful servant(s)". The Law does not save. But we have been given many examples of Grace - and it is this we follow.

If we, as Christians (and as Lutherans - some of us) are to separate "Law" and "Gospel" we have to start looking at what the Gospel DOES do and leave alone what the Law does NOT do. The gospel of Grace asks many things of us, and Christ is not a taskmaster in what he asks of us. He knows we cannot perfectly follow. But he still asks us to follow.

 

[Lamb]

So the command of God Himself to "go and do likewise", what shall we do with that? And it was a command - no conditions were attached to it. No qualifiers. It is true that we CAN'T "do likewise" in the perfect way that Christ has done for us, but he has set the standard. And it's not a standard of the Law but of Grace. We should endeavor to follow it in all we do, but with the knowledge that we can't match it. But it is a standard for the Christian to follow. The parable of the talents comes to mind as an example of what I'm talking about. If we're given a standard (Talent) to follow, and bury it, Christ referred to as "wicked and slothful servant(s)". The Law does not save. But we have been given many examples of Grace - and it is this we follow.

If we, as Christians (and as Lutherans - some of us) are to separate "Law" and "Gospel" we have to start looking at what the Gospel DOES do and leave alone what the Law does NOT do. The gospel of Grace asks many things of us, and Christ is not a taskmaster in what he asks of us. He knows we cannot perfectly follow. But he still asks us to follow.

The Gospel never asks us to do...it always tells us what God does.

You have confused Law and Gospel. The Law is what we are to do and not do. Jesus says go and do likewise, that's not Gospel. It's Law. Can it forgive you? No.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The Gospel never asks us to do...it always tells us what God does.

And how do you respond to that?

You have confused Law and Gospel.

Not at all. The Gospel of Christ is filled with his example which he left for us, not to fulfill perfectly - he was the only perfect Son of God. But he did send the Holy Spirit, who is alive in us and motivates us to do the work of God in the world. And where would we look but to the perfect Son of God as our example? Not to try and be 'perfect' as if we can be saved by our effort (we can't), but because we have been commanded to follow Him.

The Law is what we are to do and not do.

No, the Law is what we CANNOT do.

Jesus says go and do likewise, that's not Gospel. It's Law.

Lived out in the life of a Christian it is the Gospel in action, our witness to a broken and sinful world. That's grace.

Can it forgive you? No.

Agreed. We are forgiven by the unmerited favor of God through faith in His Son.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=55]ImaginaryDay2[/MENTION]
[MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]


Playing peace maker? Or just getting in the middle where grape is mushed (according to Mr. Miyagi)....


1. Would you both agree with post #4 ?

2. The Law cannot and does not save... nor is that it's purpose.... in JUSTIFICATION, it's purpose is to kill, to crush, to show us we've fallen (BADLY) and we can't get up, to bring us to our knees. In AA, they talk about how we must "hit bottom" before they will even accept help. But in SANCTIFICATION, it has a very different role: it shows us the goal, it shows us what is Christ-like, it shows us how we are to live AS CHRISTIANS. The purpose here has NOTHING to do with being saved, it has everything to do with how the saved BE.

3. Lutherans are by no means antinomian. The Law DOES apply. The Gospel does not eliminate the law, it transforms it and gives it power. Old adage, "We are save not by works but for works" or "We are saved by faith for works." OUR works are not optional - they just are not salvic. INDEED, Luther taught that ONLY via the Gospel is it even possible to do good works, in part because it is impossible to please God without faith and (just as important) the Gospel CHANGES our hearts and will (albeit, certainly not all-at-once; it is a lifelong process) and empowers our new Christian life. As my doctrine teacher put it, for the Christian, the Gospel is the engine and the law is the steering wheel - we need both, both apply. But it's much more organic and relational than that.


Does that help at all? :smile:


Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

I stand by what I say. The Law cannot forgive. (the Law is what we do and don't do...Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself as well as the 10 commandments all summed up by the first commandment)

If we're talking about eternal life we need forgiveness and the Law cannot forgive us.

A response does not merit us forgiveness.

Our "following" does not merit us forgiveness.

It is Jesus' death on the cross that earned forgiveness. That's Gospel.

Again, the Law does not forgive. If you think that living a good life because you say you're a Christian is going to forgive you then you deceive yourself because you still have sin that permeates what you do.

Forgiveness does not come from what you do. So stop navel gazing and hope that you're doing enough...it isn't going to happen.

I don't understand why, whenever we try to talk about forgiveness coming from God alone that people want to throw themselves into the mix insisting that there's more to it. There isn't.

 

[Lamb]

And how do you respond to that?

My response is to believe because God has given me faith.

Not at all. The Gospel of Christ is filled with his example which he left for us, not to fulfill perfectly - he was the only perfect Son of God. But he did send the Holy Spirit, who is alive in us and motivates us to do the work of God in the world. And where would we look but to the perfect Son of God as our example? Not to try and be 'perfect' as if we can be saved by our effort (we can't), but because we have been commanded to follow Him.



No, the Law is what we CANNOT do.

No, the Law is what we are told do and don't do by God. Love God with all your heart. You're told to do that. Have no other gods before me. You're told not to believe in other gods. Both Law. Both things we cannot do perfectly.

Lived out in the life of a Christian it is the Gospel in action, our witness to a broken and sinful world. That's grace.

What you're doing daily as a Christian is not gospel. It's a result of the Gospel.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...OR is He just a Teacher? Just a Model/Example? Just divine Inspiration? He leads the way, He SHOWS the Way but is not The way?

If the devil can get you to entertain any of the "or's" - even just 0.01%, he's opened a crack, he's cracked you open. He will appeal to your pride, your need to control... He will make Jesus as irrelevant as He can in your life at that moment (the crack will widen; he's patient).... He will direct you to the Law and away from the Gospel....

- Josiah

.

Hey Josiah! I don't think Lamm and I are as far off with one another as we think. I chopped off a bit of your post above because the last part got to where I was going. Some don't know Christ as 'The Way' so follow his example because he's a pretty good man and said a lot of things that will help us and others. But so did the Buddha, Oprah, Thich Nhat Hanh, and other "thinkers". And if they can 'think' enough, become enlightened enough, and contemplate their navel enough, then something 'better' will be waiting for them.

Nice try.

However, because Christ is 'The Way', then he becomes our ONLY Model, Example, and Inspiration. So this may be a Law as you've defined it (i.e. in regards to Sanctification), but when it's lived out, however imperfectly, there's a transition from Law to Gospel in action - it's something that's visible to the world. And I think that's where the stuck point is in our little disagreement

 

[Josiah]

Hey Josiah! I don't think Lamm and I are as far off with one another as we think.

Me, neither. Lutherans are very "touchy" on this point, lol. It's Law AND Gospel, Justification AND Sanctification. Just not confused or blended; properly distinguished. Romans 6 is just as true as Romans 3.

Knowing you both pretty well, I strongly suspect you two are on the same page.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

No, the Law is what we are told do and don't do by God. Love God with all your heart. You're told to do that. Have no other gods before me. You're told not to believe in other gods. Both Law. Both things we cannot do perfectly.

Lamm, we cannot do these things AT ALL! We NEEDED Christ to come, die, and rise again. The Holy Spirit in us enables us to act, however imperfectly.

What you're doing daily as a Christian is not gospel. It's a result of the Gospel.

I'm sorry you see things this way.

 

[Lamb]

However, because Christ is 'The Way', then he becomes our ONLY Model, Example, and Inspiration. So this may be a Law as you've defined it (i.e. in regards to Sanctification), but when it's lived out, however imperfectly, there's a transition from Law to Gospel in action - it's something that's visible to the world. And I think that's where the stuck point is in our little disagreement

What does that have to do with my topic then of the Law cannot forgive?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What does that have to do with my topic then of the Law cannot forgive?

I've agreed with you that the Law cannot forgive. However there's disagreement about what the Law actually refers to. The Law points to our sinful nature, and the fact that sin is in the world. We are born in sin, and sin is all around us. We cannot combat it, rise above it, overcome it. Christ, in His mercy, did that for us. And because of that we are forgiven when we acknowledge him in faith. However, in the OP you took the conversation from the Law (what it is) and made a connection to what we do

You would think it would be an obvious statement...The Law cannot forgive...but I've seen it countless times on forums where people might agree with me on that statement and then they go back to proclaim that they will gain eternal life by "doing" something. That doing could be trying to obey God, or doing good works, bearing fruit etc... They forget that because we live in sinful bodies that whatever we do is tarnished by sin and so we cannot obey fully and our good works are still tainted by sin. Does God accept sin?

And I've said again that if what we "do" is connected to following "law" then it is something that cannot merit favor with God. Many try. Many admit that Christ was a good teacher among many teachers (the Buddha, Thich Nhat Hanh - a 'Zen' master, Oprah, etc.). So we ttink of these individuals as having taught a 'good way' that will merit some favor with the gods or our own spiritual growth. But we both know it can't. Where the confusion lies, and where I think we've disagreed, is in my saying that our lives, lived out in faith, is evidence of the Gospel to a lost world. You have disagreed and turned back to saying this is 'Law' and therefore suggested (not saying outright) some effort on my part to merit favor (e.g. forgiveness). This, however, isn't true. So it has quite a bit to do with the OP

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Btw, I didn't intend to come and be a thread killer, or to push others out. Please come back if you have been a part of this conversation. Different voices need to be heard.