The intermediate state of life after death

[hobie]

This is not an easy subject, but we must understand what scripture gives us and discern. God cannot reward men with the bliss of heaven or the pain of hell before they are judged, and then resurrected to receive one or the other. The Bible nowhere says that rewards are given at death, but at the end of the world. Yet there arose from within the church, a doctrine of a intermediate state before they are judged even if have to suffer for the interim, and holds that they cannot be stopped from heaven as they are immortal notwithstanding any judgment.

On December 19th, 1513 at the Fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimis) declaring, “We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal” (Damnamus et reprobamus omnes assertenes animan intellectivam mortalem esse). This was directed against the growing “heresy” of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and the avowed conditional immortality of man. The Bull also decreed that those who adhere to such erroneous assertions should be shunned and punished as heretics. This view further suggests that at the resurrection of the righteous, the body and the soul are reconnected and salvation is now complete in a glorified state.

This caused a elevation of a controversy that went far beyond what the papacy would have wanted, lets see what happened beforehand.

"The event that would propel Martin Luther into historic prominence was his attempt to invite debate on the abuse of the doctrine of indulgences by the papal emissary Johan Tetzel on October 31, 1517. But indulgences cannot be understood without understanding purgatory.

This was a scholastic doctrine invented by the medieval church to explain how God deals with those who are good but are not good enough to merit immediate entry into heaven. Catholicism taught that Christ’s atonement on the cross (collectively) and the sacrament of baptism (individually) freed humans from “original” sin and made it possible to gain access to heaven.
However, because of human’s continuing propensity to commit “mortal sins,” this created a further barrier. Fortunately the church on earth has delegated authority to forgive sins through the sacrament of penance.

The medieval authorities made a distinction between guilt attached to a mortal sin and the penalty or satisfaction that was still due to God even when the guilt was removed. The priest through penance could only remove a small fraction of that satisfaction due so that the remainder (along with the punishment for less serious or venial sins) would have to be paid off after death in purgatory. The time in this prison of purgatory would be measured in tens, hundreds, or thousands of years. So when the church began to issue indulgences (certificates remitting part or all of the satisfaction due for sin), they were expressed in terms of “days” and “years” equivalent to earthy penances so that the perception was that the experience of purgatory was a temporary one. Indulgences were first made available to assist souls in purgatory by a papal bull of 1476....

The immediate cause of Luther’s stand on soul sleep was the issue of purgatory, with its focus on the conscious sufferings of anguished souls. In his famous 95 theses, which he posted at the church door at Wittenberg, Luther addresses purgatory from the viewpoint of a believing Catholic. Martin Luther’s first essay, Die Sieben Puszpsalm appeared in the spring of 1517, and according to Heinz Bluhm was met with instantaneous success. Martin Luther would go on to be one of the most read and beloved German writers. Some even consider him to be the greatest master of the German language. His 95 theses would capture the imagination of 17 the German people and spark the flame of the Reformation."http://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=jats

There are generally two views concerning the state of the dead among Christians. The first view asserts that when a person dies, his soul survives death and continues to exist in some place. For those who are saved, they go straight into paradise. For those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory (the Catholic view) where they are purified and made ready for paradise. Catholic teaching explicitly affirms the immortality of the soul, but its not supported by scripture.

The second view is that the soul is not a separate entity from the body. The body is a soul. We are all living souls. At death there is no surviving entity called the soul. The soul is dead; it is not immortal. In other words, the soul is simply the person, not a part of the person. It does not and cannot survive death. The person in this state is totally unaware of anything; the Bible calls it a sleep. It is the whole man who lives, the whole man who dies, and the whole man who is resurrected. At the resurrection the person is raised again from the dead and becomes a living soul. God's plan provides for the total eradication of sin and sinners from God's universe. After the judgment at the end, the wicked are cast in the Lake of Fire for the final punishment, and sinners will be no more. Eternal punishment means complete and final separation from God, a eternal exclusion from the privilege of life.

In the Old Testament much was revealed by God concerning the specifics of the afterlife. Believers died in hope of what God in his mercy would yet do for them. Their trust was in God who would ultimately redeem them, and we see their faith took concrete shape, as in Psalm 49...

Psalm 49:15
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

or in Job 19...

Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The future resurrection is spoken of in Daniel 12...

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We also see it in the New Testament...

Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.


John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


In the New Testament, Jesus affirms the certainty of the coming resurrection which, of course, requires the existence of an intermediate state. These passages shed light on it. In Matthew 22:31, Jesus affirms the coming resurrection of the dead, but then you have this.

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So how is He the God of the living, well we know God can raise anyone from the grave and made alive, as Lazarus was. Christ by His By death paid the ransom for us so we might live again. But who are the ones who will be with God and have eternal life, its not the wicked. So what is the intermediate state of the dead as they await the resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ, let look at what scripture says.

 

[hobie]

The early church held to this belief at the time of the apostles as it was the original Christian teaching and later as we can see, theological arguments based on this belief were also used to contest the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory and masses for the dead.

Now if there was ever a man that deserved to go straight to heaven at the point of death, it was Jesus Christ! Yet on resurrection morning Jesus said to Mary Magdalene, "Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father" John 20:17. The Son of God who is our example in all things died, was buried, and then after He was resurrected went to heaven. So it is with the Christians.

Death
Burial
Resurrection
Then go to heaven

The Apostle Peter who was filled with the Holy Spirit spoke concerning King David; word's to clear to misunderstand. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the Patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us to this day" Acts 2:29. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens.

The dead Christians are not ascended into heaven praising God on the streets of gold. "The dead praise not the Lord" Psalms 115:17. According to the prophet David, "In death there is no remembrance of Thee" Psalms 6:5. In fact, the dead have no thoughts or feelings either good or bad while in the grave. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... Also their love and their hatred, and their envy is now perished" Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. "His breath goeth forth he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" Psalms 146:4.

The dead do not communicate with the living! In fact the dead cannot haunt houses either! "He that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more, he shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him anymore" Job 7:9,10. They await the resurrection to wake them from the grave, which is the hope of Christians. Martin Luther wrote "“Our Lord has written the promise of resurrection, not in books alone, but in every leaf in springtime.”

At death man is asleep in the grave not knowing anything nor having any thoughts until the resurrection. There to awake to either everlasting life, of everlasting destruction. "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28,29. The Bible refers to death as a sleep 66 times. Clearly this is what happens at death, but yet there is struggle to accept what the Bible has, and go to the Papal definition, with its tradition or views.

 

[Andrew]

I own 2 SDA DVD lectures that are no doubt historical and interesting but both have this overwhelming obsession of belief that since the RCC has many obvious pagan influences and roots particularly since Constantine, that all RCC beliefs are rooted in paganism and thus whatever the ante Nicene church fathers epistles and Jews at the time held regarding life after death -if pagans believed it -it must be pagan.
Way to complicate a simple understanding of where we all go between death and the resurrection.. you better believe that you are judged right after death, you will go to Hades/realm of the dead/Sheol etc in either Paradise or the lower section of torment.. Not quite Heaven or the Lake of fire just yet, that comes after the Resurrection.
After you die you are judged, if you are righteous in God's eyes you go to Abraham's bosom/Paradise in Hades in reunion and communion of the saints with pure joy and comfort in Christs presence awaiting the resurrection, if you are unrighteous in God's eyes you go to the lower parts of Hades in torment -trembling in fear of being thrown into the second death/Lake of Fire upon resurrection.
It's very simple to comprehend, you are still judged after death, you wait either in glee or despair depending of the judgement, and then when Christ returns God will gather his saints to Him, Hades itself will be thrown into Lake of fire/Gehenna/second death, those who WERE in Hades who were judged righteously (that is, through Christ) will not face a second death but shall live forever...
As for living on through ego and history, the realm of the dead retain no knowledge of worldly wonders, ideals or opinions of others just as the bible states.. after death then the judgment.
The final judgment concerns the return of Christ and the resurrection and judgment day, that's it! Simple, beautiful, no need to call it non existence, that's the JW view.. That somehow God remembers you and recreates you even though you cease to exist... That's not scriptural as I pointed out..
Abel cried from the grave...
The thief I assume is still in paradise like Jesus said
Moses was seen talking with Christ..
Christ mentions Abraham and Lazarus along with the rich man having dialog with another, was Jesus a GNOSTIC??
Sorry but Christ didn't always use just a snappy parable dealing with nature or the nature of men, he was speaking of a supernatural place not of this world, if you can believe Him and Moses were speaking you can simply believe this easy!

Your church just like all protestants churches and even Catholic churches have been so distracted with regards to purgatory that you are willing to neglect or be confused about life after death and the intermediate state between death and resurrection.

None of your churches seem to follow the program on that matter, yes we are judged after death and no we don't skip resurrection and go straight to Heaven, we either wait in Paradise or in Torment, either in gladness or fear of Resurrection, and either while still alive or dead (rapture?), but just being non-existent is pure manmade dogma and believing we skip or become resurrected instantly after death is Gnosticism..

 

[hobie]

I own 2 SDA DVD lectures that are no doubt historical and interesting but both have this overwhelming obsession of belief that since the RCC has many obvious pagan influences and roots particularly since Constantine, that all RCC beliefs are rooted in paganism and thus whatever the ante Nicene church fathers epistles and Jews at the time held regarding life after death -if pagans believed it -it must be pagan.
Way to complicate a simple understanding of where we all go between death and the resurrection.. you better believe that you are judged right after death, you will go to Hades/realm of the dead/Sheol etc in either Paradise or the lower section of torment.. Not quite Heaven or the Lake of fire just yet, that comes after the Resurrection.
After you die you are judged, if you are righteous in God's eyes you go to Abraham's bosom/Paradise in Hades in reunion and communion of the saints with pure joy and comfort in Christs presence awaiting the resurrection, if you are unrighteous in God's eyes you go to the lower parts of Hades in torment -trembling in fear of being thrown into the second death/Lake of Fire upon resurrection.
It's very simple to comprehend, you are still judged after death, you wait either in glee or despair depending of the judgement, and then when Christ returns God will gather his saints to Him, Hades itself will be thrown into Lake of fire/Gehenna/second death, those who WERE in Hades who were judged righteously (that is, through Christ) will not face a second death but shall live forever...
As for living on through ego and history, the realm of the dead retain no knowledge of worldly wonders, ideals or opinions of others just as the bible states.. after death then the judgment.
The final judgment concerns the return of Christ and the resurrection and judgment day, that's it! Simple, beautiful, no need to call it non existence, that's the JW view.. That somehow God remembers you and recreates you even though you cease to exist... That's not scriptural as I pointed out..
Abel cried from the grave...
The thief I assume is still in paradise like Jesus said
Moses was seen talking with Christ..
Christ mentions Abraham and Lazarus along with the rich man having dialog with another, was Jesus a GNOSTIC??
Sorry but Christ didn't always use just a snappy parable dealing with nature or the nature of men, he was speaking of a supernatural place not of this world, if you can believe Him and Moses were speaking you can simply believe this easy!

Your church just like all protestants churches and even Catholic churches have been so distracted with regards to purgatory that you are willing to neglect or be confused about life after death and the intermediate state between death and resurrection.

None of your churches seem to follow the program on that matter, yes we are judged after death and no we don't skip resurrection and go straight to Heaven, we either wait in Paradise or in Torment, either in gladness or fear of Resurrection, and either while still alive or dead (rapture?), but just being non-existent is pure manmade dogma and believing we skip or become resurrected instantly after death is Gnosticism..

There is a lot of misunderstanding on this, especially the "bosom of Abraham" but lets go through it and see what scripture shows us. Let me put something that I just came across on Martin Luther that relates to this.

"A careful analysis of Martin Luther’s writings reveals more than 300 instances where he rebuts the medieval view of the soul, substituting in its place an undeniable "soul sleep" (psychopannychism). Indeed, all the essentials of the psychopannychistic view of man are found in Luther's writings; most of them stated repeatedly: the separate existence of the soul, its unconscious sleep in death, its exclusion from Christ's presence until the resurrection, and the ultimate reunification of body and soul at the last day as the true way to immortality and eternal life.

In his lectures on Ecclesiastes (1526), Luther asserted that the dead are "completely asleep" and do not "feel anything at all . . . they lie there not counting days or years; but when they are raised it will seem to them that they have only slept a moment."1 Commenting on Ecclesiastes 9:5, Luther said that he knew of no more powerful passage in Scripture showing that the dead are asleep and unconscious:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, KJV)

Verse 10 was another text proving "that the dead do not feel anything," since they are "completely asleep":2

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest (Ecclesiastes 9:10, KJV).

In Luther's commentary on 1 Corinthians 15, Luther argued that before Christ's resurrection, death was "true and eternal death," but now "It has become merely a sleep."

"For what was a true and eternal death prior to this and without Christ is now, since Christ has passed from death to life and has arisen, no longer death; now it has become merely a sleep. And so the Christians who lie in the ground are no longer called dead, but sleepers, people who will surely also arise again. For when we say that people are asleep, we refer to those who are lying down but will wake up and rise again, not those who are lying down bereft of all hope of rising again. Of the latter we do not say that they are sleeping but that they are inanimate corpses. Therefore by that very word ‘asleep’ Scripture indicates the future resurrection."3

Speaking of a Christian who has died in faith, Luther wrote "it is but a night before He [Christ] rouses us from sleep."4 The faithful who die, Luther said, "died in such a manner that after they had been called away from the troubles and hardships of this life, they entered their chamber, slept there, and rested in peace."....

Now Luther was not quite sure what happens to or where the soul went after death so we see "Unlike William Tyndale, who believed that the soul of man ceases to exist upon a man's death, Luther believed that the soul was a separate entity which leaves the body at death. Luther wrote, "After death the soul enters its chamber and is at peace; and while it sleeps, it is not aware of its sleep."

Luther believed that the return of Christ would terminate the sleep of death and bring to reality the hope of eternal life promised by Christ. This, Luther affirmed, is "the chief article of Christian doctrine":11

"For since we call it [death] a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..."...http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/179.htm


Now we know all the verses that speak on the intermediate state, so lets start with the ones that are clear then work from there. I am sure we can agree that death is called a "sleep in Jesus"...
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

As we look through the verses, clearly it is talking about death...

Psalm 13:3
3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

and we have multiple other verses....
Deut. 31:16__"Thou (Moses) shall sleep with thy fathers"
Sam. 7:12__"Thou (David) shalt sleep with thy fathers"
Kings 1:21__ "The king shall sleep with his fathers"
Kings 2:10__ "So David slept with His fathers"
Job 3_13__ "I should have slept"
Job 7:21__ "Now shall I sleep"
Psalm 76:5__ "They have slept their sleep"
Jer. 51:39__ "And sleep a perpetual sleep."
Daniel 12:2__ "Them that sleep in the dust."
I Cor. 15:6__ "some are fallen asleep"
I Cor. 15:51__ "we shall not all sleep"
Thess. 4:13 "concerning them which are asleep"
II Peter 3:4 "Since the fathers fell asleep"

Then we have Christs own words...
Matthew 9:24
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

[Andrew]

There is a lot of misunderstanding on this, especially the "bosom of Abraham" but lets go through it and see what scripture shows us. Let me put something that I just came across on Martin Luther that relates to this.

"A careful analysis of Martin Luther’s writings reveals more than 300 instances where he rebuts the medieval view of the soul, substituting in its place an undeniable "soul sleep" (psychopannychism). Indeed, all the essentials of the psychopannychistic view of man are found in Luther's writings; most of them stated repeatedly: the separate existence of the soul, its unconscious sleep in death, its exclusion from Christ's presence until the resurrection, and the ultimate reunification of body and soul at the last day as the true way to immortality and eternal life.

In his lectures on Ecclesiastes (1526), Luther asserted that the dead are "completely asleep" and do not "feel anything at all . . . they lie there not counting days or years; but when they are raised it will seem to them that they have only slept a moment."1 Commenting on Ecclesiastes 9:5, Luther said that he knew of no more powerful passage in Scripture showing that the dead are asleep and unconscious:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, KJV)

Verse 10 was another text proving "that the dead do not feel anything," since they are "completely asleep":2

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest (Ecclesiastes 9:10, KJV).

In Luther's commentary on 1 Corinthians 15, Luther argued that before Christ's resurrection, death was "true and eternal death," but now "It has become merely a sleep."

"For what was a true and eternal death prior to this and without Christ is now, since Christ has passed from death to life and has arisen, no longer death; now it has become merely a sleep. And so the Christians who lie in the ground are no longer called dead, but sleepers, people who will surely also arise again. For when we say that people are asleep, we refer to those who are lying down but will wake up and rise again, not those who are lying down bereft of all hope of rising again. Of the latter we do not say that they are sleeping but that they are inanimate corpses. Therefore by that very word ‘asleep’ Scripture indicates the future resurrection."3

Speaking of a Christian who has died in faith, Luther wrote "it is but a night before He [Christ] rouses us from sleep."4 The faithful who die, Luther said, "died in such a manner that after they had been called away from the troubles and hardships of this life, they entered their chamber, slept there, and rested in peace."....

Now Luther was not quite sure what happens to or where the soul went after death so we see "Unlike William Tyndale, who believed that the soul of man ceases to exist upon a man's death, Luther believed that the soul was a separate entity which leaves the body at death. Luther wrote, "After death the soul enters its chamber and is at peace; and while it sleeps, it is not aware of its sleep."

Luther believed that the return of Christ would terminate the sleep of death and bring to reality the hope of eternal life promised by Christ. This, Luther affirmed, is "the chief article of Christian doctrine":11

"For since we call it [death] a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..."...http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/179.htm

I'm not Lutheran, so what I get from the word "sleep" is simply inactivity of the body... If we "sleep" in "death" I suppose that what we may dream is only a response to what we experience, so seeing that in life we are judged according to our works, in death we have no power or wiggle room for correction.. thus a judgment, inactivity of the body, and a non negotiable state of result after death until the resurrection... the "awakening" is likewise like being awoken, the body is once again animated (reunited) and soulful..
You believe in non existence after death and then God remembers you and recreates you all over again?
I don't recall a single passage in scripture that God remembered Jesus and woke him up by recreating him.. I read the opposite, Jesus died and WENT to Hades, preached to the spirits and also brought the thief with him to "paradise", how can you be somewhere if you completely cease to exist?

 

[hobie]

It doesn't matter what denomination we are, it is Gods truth which He gives us in His Word that we need to grasp and understand, not dogma or tradition. Here is more on Luther, which I didn't get a chance to include...

"Archdeacon Blackburne's incisive summation of Luther's position was this:

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last mornent of his life."7

Blackburne then adds that Luther's commentary on Ecclesiastes, published in 1532, was "clearly and indisputably on the side of those who maintain the sleep of the soul."8 Blackburne, the Anglican scholar, is cited here because, having studied deeply into Luther's position nearly two centuries previously, and having searched out all the pertinent source evidences bearing thereon, he recorded this definite opinion: "Luther mentioned the immortality of the soul, as a portentous opinion, supported by nothing but the Pope's decrees."9

Dr. T. A. Kantonen, contemporary American Lutheran scholar and professor of systematic theology, Hamma Divinity School, likewise confirms the observations here made concerning Luther's position.

"Luther, with a greater emphasis on the resurrection, preferred to concentrate on the scriptural metaphor of sleep. 'For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death.' 'We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment and be happy with Him forever.' "10

4. DID LUTHER LATER REVERSE HIS POSITION?—To the question Did Luther "so alter his mind as to recant, and espouse the contrary doctrine?" Blackburne gives an unqualified "No."11 Luther, he asserted, not only held to "the sleep of the soul" in the decade from 1522 to 1532, when he published his commentary on Ecclesiastes, but his later reflections on the death of John, Elector of Saxony, show that he still believed that the souls of the righteous were "at rest."12

Blackburne then alludes to disputes among Luther's followers as to "what becomes of the soul after death" and gives Luther's reply as, "Nothing is revealed to us on that head, and that it is rash to affirm anything about it without the word of God."13 Nevertheless Luther, it must be frankly stated, was not always consistent. He himself was in the process of clarification, and was subjected to terrific pressures from associates who did not see the issue as he did."https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/froom/luther-conditionalism.php#.XfoyjNVKi1s

 

[hobie]

Now lets go over the 'bosom of Abraham' as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."https://support.amazingdiscoveries.org/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/252/0/the-rich-man-and-lazarus

 

[Andrew]

It doesn't matter what denomination we are, it is Gods truth which He gives us in His Word that we need to grasp and understand, not dogma or tradition. Here is more on Luther, which I didn't get a chance to include...

"Archdeacon Blackburne's incisive summation of Luther's position was this:

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last mornent of his life."7

Blackburne then adds that Luther's commentary on Ecclesiastes, published in 1532, was "clearly and indisputably on the side of those who maintain the sleep of the soul."8 Blackburne, the Anglican scholar, is cited here because, having studied deeply into Luther's position nearly two centuries previously, and having searched out all the pertinent source evidences bearing thereon, he recorded this definite opinion: "Luther mentioned the immortality of the soul, as a portentous opinion, supported by nothing but the Pope's decrees."9

Dr. T. A. Kantonen, contemporary American Lutheran scholar and professor of systematic theology, Hamma Divinity School, likewise confirms the observations here made concerning Luther's position.

"Luther, with a greater emphasis on the resurrection, preferred to concentrate on the scriptural metaphor of sleep. 'For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death.' 'We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment and be happy with Him forever.' "10

4. DID LUTHER LATER REVERSE HIS POSITION?—To the question Did Luther "so alter his mind as to recant, and espouse the contrary doctrine?" Blackburne gives an unqualified "No."11 Luther, he asserted, not only held to "the sleep of the soul" in the decade from 1522 to 1532, when he published his commentary on Ecclesiastes, but his later reflections on the death of John, Elector of Saxony, show that he still believed that the souls of the righteous were "at rest."12

Blackburne then alludes to disputes among Luther's followers as to "what becomes of the soul after death" and gives Luther's reply as, "Nothing is revealed to us on that head, and that it is rash to affirm anything about it without the word of God."13 Nevertheless Luther, it must be frankly stated, was not always consistent. He himself was in the process of clarification, and was subjected to terrific pressures from associates who did not see the issue as he did."https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/froom/luther-conditionalism.php#.XfoyjNVKi1s

Luther sounds like a regular man, indeed we don't know as much as we'd like to know but I guarantee the souls doesn't sleep nor cease to exists

 

[hobie]

Luther sounds like a regular man, indeed we don't know as much as we'd like to know but I guarantee the souls doesn't sleep nor cease to exists

But what does the Bible say, rather than relying on ideas or traditions of man, we need to go by Gods Word.

 

[hobie]

When a living breathing creature (a soul) ceases to breath he is asleep, he is "dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day, and is not ascended into the heavens” Acts 2:29,34. They "do not remember God." Psalms 6:5 "The dead do not praise the Lord." Psalms 115:17 "Their thoughts have perished." Psalms 146:4 "The dead know not any thing." Ecclesiastes 9:5. The dead never do anything on the earth any more, and await the resurrection.

When soul is found in the Bible it means literally a living breathing creature. Let us look at the true Hebrew idea of the soul from scripture.

When man had been created from the dust, what did he become? “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7.

To what other order of beings is the term soul applied? “And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the *****, and of the sheep.” Numbers 31:28.

Is the term living soul applied to anything besides man and beast? “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.” Revelation 16:3

Can a soul suffer thirst? “As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.” Proverbs 25:25.

May it also suffer hunger? “Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.” Proverbs 19:15.

Is a soul capable of eating? “But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.” Leviticus 7:20.

Can a soul be injured? “And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.” Joshua 11:11.

Can a soul die? “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4.

What is the prophecy say about the soul of Christ? “Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” Isaiah 53:12.

What happens to the soul at death? Where does the soul go? “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?” Psalm 89:48.

Because Christ “hath poured out his soul unto death.” is His soul dead now? “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.” Acts 2:31. “Hell” or hades here used is translated as “grave” in this verse, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” 1 Corinthians 15:55.

The second coming forever conquers death and hell (the grave) for the righteous but what happens to death and hell for the wicked when they are cast into the Lake of Fire? “And death and hell (hades = grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now as for Samuel coming up, it was clearly a demon that appeared to the witch of Endor in the form of the prophet Samuel, appearing to be Samuel to deceive. Today demons are coming in the form of our dead loved ones deceiving many, and even appearing as the 'Virgin Mary' or as other 'saints' or apparitions. We can go into that next..

 

[Albion]

This is not an easy subject, but we must understand what scripture gives us and discern. God cannot reward men with the bliss of heaven or the pain of hell before they are judged, and then resurrected to receive one or the other. The Bible nowhere says that rewards are given at death, but at the end of the world.

Salvation is not usually considered to be a "reward." The saved will be rewarded, it is true, but their status shortly after death is not that.

Yet there arose from within the church, a doctrine of a intermediate state before they are judged even if have to suffer for the interim, and holds that they cannot be stopped from heaven as they are immortal notwithstanding any judgment.

The "intermediate state" you are referring to requires a judgment. It merely isn't the final judgment.

On December 19th, 1513 at the Fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimis) declaring, “We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal” (Damnamus et reprobamus omnes assertenes animan intellectivam mortalem esse). This was directed against the growing “heresy” of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and the avowed conditional immortality of man. The Bull also decreed that those who adhere to such erroneous assertions should be shunned and punished as heretics.

Heresy, yes, but today they are generally considered to be members of cults.

This view further suggests that at the resurrection of the righteous, the body and the soul are reconnected and salvation is now complete in a glorified state.

Yes, although the evildoers are also judged.

"The event that would propel Martin Luther into historic prominence was his attempt to invite debate on the abuse of the doctrine of indulgences by the papal emissary Johan Tetzel on October 31, 1517. But indulgences cannot be understood without understanding purgatory.

That's right.

There are generally two views concerning the state of the dead among Christians. The first view asserts that when a person dies, his soul survives death and continues to exist in some place. For those who are saved, they go straight into paradise. For those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory (the Catholic view) where they are purified and made ready for paradise. Catholic teaching explicitly affirms the immortality of the soul, but its not supported by scripture.

That's the Romanist view, but it cannot be said that it also applies to Christians of other churches.

The second view is that the soul is not a separate entity from the body. The body is a soul. We are all living souls. At death there is no surviving entity called the soul. The soul is dead; it is not immortal. In other words, the soul is simply the person, not a part of the person. It does not and cannot survive death.

Relatively few people believe this.

Most Christians, therefore, are NOT described by either of the two views you've laid before us.

 

[Andrew]

When a living breathing creature (a soul) ceases to breath he is asleep, he is "dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day, and is not ascended into the heavens” Acts 2:29,34. They "do not remember God." Psalms 6:5 "The dead do not praise the Lord." Psalms 115:17 "Their thoughts have perished." Psalms 146:4 "The dead know not any thing." Ecclesiastes 9:5. The dead never do anything on the earth any more, and await the resurrection.

When soul is found in the Bible it means literally a living breathing creature. Let us look at the true Hebrew idea of the soul from scripture.

When man had been created from the dust, what did he become? “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7.

To what other order of beings is the term soul applied? “And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the *****, and of the sheep.” Numbers 31:28.

Is the term living soul applied to anything besides man and beast? “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.” Revelation 16:3

Can a soul suffer thirst? “As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.” Proverbs 25:25.

May it also suffer hunger? “Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.” Proverbs 19:15.

Is a soul capable of eating? “But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.” Leviticus 7:20.

Can a soul be injured? “And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.” Joshua 11:11.

Can a soul die? “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4.

What is the prophecy say about the soul of Christ? “Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” Isaiah 53:12.

What happens to the soul at death? Where does the soul go? “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?” Psalm 89:48.

Because Christ “hath poured out his soul unto death.” is His soul dead now? “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.” Acts 2:31. “Hell” or hades here used is translated as “grave” in this verse, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” 1 Corinthians 15:55.

The second coming forever conquers death and hell (the grave) for the righteous but what happens to death and hell for the wicked when they are cast into the Lake of Fire? “And death and hell (hades = grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now as for Samuel coming up, it was clearly a demon that appeared to the witch of Endor in the form of the prophet Samuel, appearing to be Samuel to deceive. Today demons are coming in the form of our dead loved ones deceiving many, and even appearing as the 'Virgin Mary' or as other 'saints' or apparitions. We can go into that next..

Soul + body is described as a "living soul" which makes perfect sense. Death is separation of the body, thus "sleep" is inactivity of the body but the soul itself does not cease to exist. The JW view is that your soul cease to exists and God will remember you and recreate your spirit with a new body, that's what you are insisting but it goes against scripture.. When Jesus will say a dead girl is just "sleeping" and "resurrects" her He does not create a new soul nor does he wake up a soul..
How is it possible that Abel cried after he died? Was God just going through personal emotional loss and used that phrase figuratively?
How can a man be assured that God will not allow his soul in sheol forever unless sheol is real place for souls?
This video is a lecture on what early Christians believed about life after death, he pretty much sums it up in the first 10 minutes or so but he goes through the many modern Christian beliefs first so you can see why they are all wrong..
https://youtu.be/QGs7ZOVHdFw

also there is this...

https://youtu.be/KqCve1AxJlM

 

[Andrew]

But what does the Bible say, rather than relying on ideas or traditions of man, we need to go by Gods Word.

I rely on no tradition btw, I am more interested in what the early Christians in Paul's era universally believed and I find it simple and delightful. When they disagreed they didn't create any separate denominational movements, theologians back then were our early Church fathers and were certainly not uneducated and we are no more wiser than they were even with all of our divisions, dogmas and theology..
Hard issues today were not so in the ante Nicene era, they only cared about the saving Gospel and working together to correct their bad habits in the churches outlined in the epistles and letters..
The SDA has manmade traditions.
Check out the early Christians, they worshipped on Sunday and they gathered before sunrise in different houses so not to be seen and persecuted, they likewise returned later that night for the same reason.. Doing this on a Saturday in broad daylight was certain death, sorry I know, totally off topic but my point is that these martyrs hardly had time with theological debating over things like "soul sleep", something that would sound alien to them and non biblical, they would were very aware of Gnostic teachings creeping into the church and so they would have been very careful in regards to radical theologies on life after death.. They wrote extensively on Gnostics who were creating there own ideas on the soul, reincarnation, skipping resurrection, ceasing to exist etc..

 

[Andrew]

Now lets go over the 'bosom of Abraham' as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."https://support.amazingdiscoveries.org/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/252/0/the-rich-man-and-lazarus

Parables are based on possible situations using actual things that speak on numbers of issues, greed, forgiveness, obedience, judgment etc.. none the less they are practical and using names or the term "certain" implies non figurative narratives.. Jesus was describing an actual place that the first victim of death "Abel" went to and cried from, it's not just a made up place but a very real place, Jesus went there ya know..
The heart of the Earth is the realm of the dead where souls go (not cease to exist)

 

[hobie]

Lets go over the story of the Witch of Endor and Saul, but lets see what the real Samuel told Saul before this...

1 Samuel 15:18-28
18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?
20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.
26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
28 And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.

Notice what it says in verse 23 on rebellion "is as the sin of witchcraft" and stubbornness against obeying the word of God, and Samuel made clear in verse 28 that "The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine". So that was already known, but Saul made it worse by then actually going to one with 'familiar spirits' which was forbidden by God, and he knew it.

1 Samuel 28:3
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

So at this time we see that Samuel was dead and buried as the verse makes clear, and Saul panics.

1 Samuel 28:5-7
5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

You can see the woman knew what Saul had done to those with familiar spirits, from what Saul told her.
1 Samuel 28:10-20 King James Version (KJV)
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Satan used a demon-possessed witch to bring up a familiar spirit that looked and sounded just like the prophet Samuel to bring about the destruction of King Saul. Now there are some that miss the issue here and go wondering if this is allowed by God and the implications. Here is some points on this issue, so lets look closely at verse 14:
"And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself"

This spiritual séance has been cited as evidence for life after death. But here are points to the contrary:

1. Wizards had been sentenced to death and banned from the land (1 Samuel 28:3; Leviticus 20:27).

2. God had departed from Saul and would not communicate with him (1 Samuel 28:15).

3. Samuel was supposedly "brought up." Other expressions used in this passage include: "ascending out of the earth," "cometh up," and "bring ... up." (verses 13-15). Is this where the righteous dead are. down in the earth? Not according to those who believe in the immortal soul.

4. Samuel is described as an old man covered with a mantle. Is this the way immortal souls appear? And where did the soul get the body? They're supposed to be disembodied. Was there a resurrection? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch and raise up Samuel? If not, can Satan raise the dead?

5. The apparition of Samuel told Saul, "Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me." 1 Samuel 28:19. Saul committed suicide on the battlefield the next day. Where did Samuel dwell, if the wicked Saul was to go to the same place?

6. The Bible never says that Saul saw Samuel. He received his information secondhand from the witch, and only concluded it was Samuel from her description. The truth is that the devil deceived the dissolute old woman, and she deceived Saul. It was nothing more than a devil-generated séance.

7. The enormity of Saul's sin is revealed in these words: "So Saul died for his transgression ... and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him." 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14..

We know that demons can impersonate dead saints, and even Satan show himself as a "angel of light".
2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So we need to stay close to God and His truth, not some witch or those with "familiar spirits".

Isaiah 8:19-20
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[hobie]

Soul + body is described as a "living soul" which makes perfect sense. Death is separation of the body, thus "sleep" is inactivity of the body but the soul itself does not cease to exist. The JW view is that your soul cease to exists and God will remember you and recreate your spirit with a new body, that's what you are insisting but it goes against scripture.. When Jesus will say a dead girl is just "sleeping" and "resurrects" her He does not create a new soul nor does he wake up a soul..
How is it possible that Abel cried after he died? Was God just going through personal emotional loss and used that phrase figuratively?
How can a man be assured that God will not allow his soul in sheol forever unless sheol is real place for souls?
This video is a lecture on what early Christians believed about life after death, he pretty much sums it up in the first 10 minutes or so but he goes through the many modern Christian beliefs first so you can see why they are all wrong..
https://youtu.be/QGs7ZOVHdFw

also there is this...

https://youtu.be/KqCve1AxJlM

Well lets go over a verse that many who advocate the soul is immortal use to point out the distinction between soul and body. Lets take a look at Matthew 10:28:

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

They argue that the soul is the real self that dwells within the body during life, but lives on separate from the body after death. The problem for their view is that this verse proves that the soul, like the body, can be destroyed in hell. If the soul can be destroyed, it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire. The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time.

The Greek word for "soul" (psuche) used in Matthew 10:28 means "life." It is the same word that is used four times in Matthew 16:25-26:

Matthew 16:25-26
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

In the King James Version it is translated "life" in verse 25 and "soul" in verse 26: "For whosoever will save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul [psuche]? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul [psuche]?" Note how the translators have varied the translation of the same Greek word. Verse 25 indicates that one could lose his soul for Christ's sake. That would not be possible if the soul were an immortal entity within man. The loss of the soul for the immortal-soul advocate means going to hell. Obviously no one goes to hell for Christ's sake. It is possible, however, to lay down ones life for Christ's sake. The translators, who believed in the immortality of the soul, saw the problem for their view and translated the word psuche by "life," even though they translated it "soul" in verse 26.

The real message of Matthew 16:25-26 is that eternal life will be lost for those who substitute selfish desires for the service of Christ. But eternal life will be given to those who love and serve Christ. The next verse puts the statement into its context: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works". Matthew 16:27.

Matthew 10:28 is thoroughly consistent with Jesus' overall teaching that the "soul" or "life" of the unbeliever will be destroyed eternally. That being the case the soul is not immortal.

Now we read in 1 Peter 3:18 in the King James Bible:
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So lets see what "quickened" means:

Psalm 71:20
Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

In Strongs Dictionary the word quickened (G2227) is translated in the following manner: quicken (9x), give life (2x), make alive (1x).

So its clear, "quickened" means made alive or as we see resurrected.

The New King James Version translates it like this..
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

When you read the whole context of that verse here, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit", the subject of this reference is the Spirit by whom in other words, "through the Spirit He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient, once in the days of long-suffering they waited in the time of Noah while the ark was being prepared..."

Some have thought this means that when Jesus died on the cross, He didn’t really die, He altered His state into the spirit, He went down into hell, He preached to the people who lived before the flood that they might have a second chance. This is a strange teaching that came out of Catholic theology. But what it does mean. He says He, Christ, through the Holy Spirit, preached to spirits who were in prison. You and I are spirits, and if we’re not saved we’re imprisoned by the devil, just like Peter was imprisoned and the angel came to set him free.

You can also see in Isaiah 61, part of the ministry of Christ, was He came to set the captives free and "opening the prison to them that are bound." Isaiah 61:1. So it’s simply saying that part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned by the devil.

Not only that, but that doctrine is devastating in that it also teaches there’s a second chance. The Bible in Hebrew 9:27 says "It’s appointed unto man once to die" and after that the judgment. You can’t die, and then while you’re in hell hope you can get Jesus to come preach to you.

Here is clearer explanation...
"Spirits in prison" is an expression for a person in bondage to sin and death. Prison has this association in the following passages:
"I the LORD have called thee [Christ] . . . to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." (Isa. 42:6,7).
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound." (Isa. 61:1).
See also Eph. 2:1,2 - Prior to becoming believers, Paul told the Ephesians: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience."http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01immortality/1peter3v19.html

 

[hobie]

Now as for Moses and Elijah meeting on the mountain top with the Disciples and Christ lets look at scripture.

2 Kings 2:1
2 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2 Kings 2:11
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Moses was one of the firstfruits resurrected from death. We see this when devil argued against it because he believed he had dominion over Moses in the grave. Jude as we see wrote: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven. When Christ was on the Mount of Transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah were seen together with Jesus by Peter, James, and John:

Matthew 17:1-3
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Christ has the power to resurrect as we see:
John 11:25
I am the resurrection and the life.

The Scriptures in both Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life to the dead will be restored in the resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

We see some of the firstfruits at Christ death on the cross..

Matthew 27:52-54
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

There will be separate resurrections for the righteous and for the wicked:
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice "the dead in Christ"
1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We see more:
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Corinthians 15:12-14
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

 

[hobie]

I rely on no tradition btw, I am more interested in what the early Christians in Paul's era universally believed and I find it simple and delightful. When they disagreed they didn't create any separate denominational movements, theologians back then were our early Church fathers and were certainly not uneducated and we are no more wiser than they were even with all of our divisions, dogmas and theology..
Hard issues today were not so in the ante Nicene era, they only cared about the saving Gospel and working together to correct their bad habits in the churches outlined in the epistles and letters..
The SDA has manmade traditions.
Check out the early Christians, they worshipped on Sunday and they gathered before sunrise in different houses so not to be seen and persecuted, they likewise returned later that night for the same reason.. Doing this on a Saturday in broad daylight was certain death, sorry I know, totally off topic but my point is that these martyrs hardly had time with theological debating over things like "soul sleep", something that would sound alien to them and non biblical, they would were very aware of Gnostic teachings creeping into the church and so they would have been very careful in regards to radical theologies on life after death.. They wrote extensively on Gnostics who were creating there own ideas on the soul, reincarnation, skipping resurrection, ceasing to exist etc..

Early Christians continued to pray and rest on the seventh day, and observe the Sabbath. But apostasy began to creep in the church, especially at Rome and by the 2nd century AD you start to find were some began to hold both, and soon a number of Christians affected by the spreading apostasy were observing only Sunday and not the Sabbath.

Take a look...https://www.christianitytoday.com/h...n-church-switch-sabbath-from-saturday-to.html
Notice they don't know why but just throw out "because the Resurrection and the beginning of Creation had both occurred on the first day of the week" But at Creation it was the seventh day that was made sanctified and made holy and clearly Christ rested on the Sabbath and then came up on Sunday.

Here is a good site to check on how the Sabbath has been held over the centuries..https://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/sabbath-through-the-centuries

To fully grasp this issue, we have to define what the Bible says a soul is:
How was man created?
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man was not given a soul – he became a living soul. Don't miss that. “Soul” and “spirit” are not the same thing. It is the unity of body and breath-of-life that constitute the soul. You ARE a soul; you do not HAVE a soul. It is sad that an educated clergy gets this part wrong in most churches, and in doing so, the rest of what happens after we die gets distorted based off this first failing step.

For those that are mathematically minded, the idea can be expressed as such:
Physical body (dust) + breath of life (spirit - ruwach) = living soul (a wholism of the two - nephesh)

The Hebrew word for soul is"nephesh". Nephesh was translated into many different English words for the KJV Bible (for instance; creature, beast, man, fish, thing, person or persons, etc) but an important thing one should plainly see is that none of the translations refer to it as being something that survives the death of the body nor does it mean that in the original Hebrew. It was used to describe the "wholism" of life - not a "dualism" as was latter taught by the Greeks (Plato to be precise) and is unfortunately with us still today.

The Hebrew word for spirit is "ruwach". This word means breath or air and these terms are used interchangeably. The Hebrew word “ruwach” appears 377 times in the Bible; 117 times translated as wind/air, 33 times as breath, and 227 times as spirit. There is no indication that there is any memory, consciousness, ego, or character associated with it in ANY of the verses. Also, there is no implication that it is immortal.

Now let’s look at Christ’s example on the cross and the thief since many cite this as a reason to believe that we go immediately to heaven or hell following death:
Luke 23:42-43
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The word “spirit” (ruach) simply means His breath. But now lets look at a few things:
1) Did Jesus ascend to heaven that day? No.
Remember, Jesus died on a Friday (day of preparation – Luke 23:54), laid dead in the sepulchre all of Saturday
(Sabbath – again Luke 23:54), rose on Sunday.
John 20:1 - The first day of the week (Sunday still) cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (Luke 24:21 further verifies it was three days)
John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus was dead and rose on the third day and still had not yet ascended to heaven.

2) Did the thief die that day? No.
In fact, the Jews didn’t want anyone hanging on the cross during their Sabbath day so the Romans broke the legs of the thief and the other (neither of which had died yet) so that when they took the crosses down they wouldn’t run away (John 19:31-33).

3) Did the thief even ask to be taken to heaven that day? No. The thief knew his theology – what did he ask?
Luke 23:42-43 "?And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom"...

The thief did not ask to be taken to heaven when he died but when Christ would return. This is very important to understand, don't miss it.

Never has the misplacement of a comma ever caused so much trouble. Remember, neither Greek nor Hebrew contains any form of punctuation nor capitalization – the translators put those in when they translated to English.
Is it possible they were swayed by a preconceived notion? Maybe so.
Are they “inspired” as the writers of the Bible were? No, certainly not.
Were they just being consistent? YES! Check it out; any time in the Bible where Jesus says “verily I say unto thee” there is always a comma immediately following the phrase. The translators were merely being consistent in their translation but this time it was at the expense of the true meaning of what Jesus actually said.

Let's see if there are examples of misplaced commas in other places in the Bible just to see if this is possible:
Acts 19:12 - So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Now ask yourself, were the handkerchiefs sick? Did they have evil spirits in them? No. According to the way this sentence is written then they were, right? Doesn't it stand to reason that the comma is misplaced? I would think so.
Let’s see another example:

Genesis 16:1 - Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Was Sarai Abram his name? No. The commas are missing between the names – it should read “Now Sarai, Abrams’s wife, bare him…” There are many others – the point is that punctuation mistakes DID happen and the example of the thief on the cross is merely another one that can easily be corrected if people would correlate the meaning to the plain teachings found in the rest of the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself but sometimes one must look a bit deeper than the surface to see that.

Here is a good explanation..."In Luke 23:43 we read of Jesus saying, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise.” But in John 20:1-17 we read that Jesus meets Mary in the garden on the first day of the week and says, ‘Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God’” (John 20:17). Additionally, John 19:31-33 states that the religious leaders asked for the thieves legs' to be broken and taken down from their crosses. They didn't want the thieves to hang on the crosses over the Sabbath.

We can see that Jesus could not have been with the thief in heavenly paradise that Friday if He had still not ascended to the Father on Sunday. Is this a contradiction? It would seem to be so on the surface. But what if the comma was after the word today instead of before it? The meaning would change completely...."https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/thief-on-cross