The Colossian Problem

[NewCreation435]

There has been much debate over the nature of the problem that Paul was addressing with the Colossian church in his little letter to them. I have heard it said that theologians have over 40 viewpoints about the nature of that problem. Whether it was Gnostic teaching or Jewish leaders from Jerusalem that was bothering them. Paul seems to indicate part of the problem in the below verses in Colossians 2:16-23

16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiriitual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

What do you think the nature of the Colossian problem is? Is it still a problem today? In what ways?

 

[psalms 91]

There has been much debate over the nature of the problem that Paul was addressing with the Colossian church in his little letter to them. I have heard it said that theologians have over 40 viewpoints about the nature of that problem. Whether it was Gnostic teaching or Jewish leaders from Jerusalem that was bothering them. Paul seems to indicate part of the problem in the below verses in Colossians 2:16-23

16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiriitual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

What do you think the nature of the Colossian problem is? Is it still a problem today? In what ways?

sounds like the


jewish leaders were giving them a hard time

 

[MennoSota]

We still have people who judge based upon the outward behavior of a person and how well that person conforms to the social mores of the group doing the judging. Do they wear a dress or a suit to church? Do they abstain from (pick your vice)? Do they do (pick your action) what is required by the denomination? Do they say the pledge of allegiance and stand when the national anthem is played? The list goes on and on.
Such outward displays do nothing to make us more God-ward. We Christians seem to struggle with recognizing we are aliens and exiles in a foreign land. Our kingdom is in heaven and our home town is there. Instead we conform ourselves to the kingdom in which we reside as ambassadors. Paul seems to be calling the Colossians (and us) out from this conformity.

 

[NewCreation435]

We still have people who judge based upon the outward behavior of a person and how well that person conforms to the social mores of the group doing the judging. Do they wear a dress or a suit to church? Do they abstain from (pick your vice)? Do they do (pick your action) what is required by the denomination? Do they say the pledge of allegiance and stand when the national anthem is played? The list goes on and on.
Such outward displays do nothing to make us more God-ward. We Christians seem to struggle with recognizing we are aliens and exiles in a foreign land. Our kingdom is in heaven and our home town is there. Instead we conform ourselves to the kingdom in which we reside as ambassadors. Paul seems to be calling the Colossians (and us) out from this conformity.

Yes, that's a bigger problem is some denominations than others. If you don't dress a certain way or carry the right Bible or use the right religious language you might not be accepted in some groups. That might be why some are reluctant to come to a church because they don't know what to expect.
the truth is that a person can look the part and say all the right things and it isn't reflective of what is going on in their heart. We tend to judge things in such superficial ways. I remember a lady complaining one time at a church I preached at saying I didn't use the King James Bible. I pointed out that the pew Bibles the church had bought were NIV.

 

[Arsenios]

2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom
in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body;
not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Here is the literal:

atina estin logon
Which things are a word

men exonta sofiav
seemingly having wisdom

en eyeloyrhskeia
in willful worship

kai tapeinofrosunh
and humble-mindedness

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

ouk en timh tini
not in valuing anything

prov plhsmonhn thv sarkov
for fulfillment of the flesh


So that we can infer from this the following:

Christian Faith Biblically looks like this:
1) Willful worship
2) Humble-mindedness
3) Unsparing severity of body
4) In not valuing anything for the fulfillment of the flesh

From this the only conclusion is that askesis is Christian...
And that there is such a thing as un-Christian askesis...

This passage normally has terrible translations...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Christian Faith Biblically looks like this:
1) Willful worship
2) Humble-mindedness
3) Unsparing severity of body
4) In not valuing anything for the fulfillment of the flesh

Oh my...
That's not faith at all. That is works in an attempt to merit God's favor. That's a misguided burden placed upon self in an attempt to gain God's favor by your own efforts. That is entirely contrary to the gospel of God's grace.
Your comments make me so sad for you, Arsenios. Your zeal is great, but your faith is non-existent. You are like Saul before the road to Damascus.
I know you think you are doing God's will, but you have severely missed the mark.

 

[Andrew]

Oh my...
That's not faith at all. That is works in an attempt to merit God's favor. That's a misguided burden placed upon self in an attempt to gain God's favor by your own efforts. That is entirely contrary to the gospel of God's grace.
Your comments make me so sad for you, Arsenios. Your zeal is great, but your faith is non-existent. You are like Saul before the road to Damascus.
I know you think you are doing God's will, but you have severely missed the mark.

I highly doubt that Arsenios believes he is doing Gods will by doing what every decent Christian feels in the Christian heart -in putting God first in everything that we do (being obedient for his name sake) -are doing. We are respectively responsible for our actions and our faith is a living testimony to others.
Gal 3:24 "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith"
In Fact Arsenios (as well as you Menno, and myself and everyone here at CH/anyone who BELIEVES in Christ) -ARE Gods will and ARE justified in faith.
Believing in Christ is not just a flat belief that God exist, because demons also believe in God... We are justified in the teachings of and as followers together of -the fellowship IN Jesus Christ (the Body of Christ) by strict belief.
Who are we to measure each others faith in the Lord? Is that not entirely up to God to determine who is and who is not Justified?
No one needs a PHD in scripture, only pure honest belief in Christ along of course with HIS teachings.

IMO

Edit note: I assumed this was the justification thread because of the language, TAPATALK previews words and I just jumped in lol just in case I get flamed for mentioning justification and time or two.

 

[Arsenios]

Oh my...
That's not faith at all. That is works in an attempt to merit God's favor. That's a misguided burden placed upon self in an attempt to gain God's favor by your own efforts. That is entirely contrary to the gospel of God's grace.
Your comments make me so sad for you, Arsenios. Your zeal is great, but your faith is non-existent. You are like Saul before the road to Damascus.
I know you think you are doing God's will, but you have severely missed the mark.

I appreciate your vast concern for me, but what I was hoping for was to engage the text which plainly states that what some do may look like the Christian practice of the Faith but actually is not... And the things I listed I took directly from the text, and I am sorry the Bible does not agree with your assessment of its words and thoughts...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I appreciate your vast concern for me, but what I was hoping for was to engage the text which plainly states that what some do may look like the Christian practice of the Faith but actually is not... And the things I listed I took directly from the text, and I am sorry the Bible does not agree with your assessment of its words and thoughts...

Arsenios

So the four points you made were examples of what a false faith looks like?

Christian Faith Biblically looks like this:

1) Willful worship

2) Humble-mindedness

3) Unsparing severity of body

4) In not valuing anything for the fulfillment of the flesh

It sure seems like the four points were what you were claiming a Christian needed to do.
If the four points were examples of a false faith, then I apologize. If you were claiming they were legitimate actions of a Christian, then my first point stands as it is woefully wrong and contrary to God's word. (especially 3 and 4)
Christ leads us to worship. Christ leads us to grateful humility in knowing we have no claim in regard to anything. The last two are rebuked in Colossians.

 

[Arsenios]

So the four points you made were examples of what a false faith looks like?

Yes... AND what the True Faith looks like...

So that by living an ascetic life is not in itself Christian...

But an ascetic life IS a part of a Christian life...

It sure seems like the four points were what you were claiming a Christian needed to do.

We do need askesis, but Christian askesis can be imitated by false religions...

If the four points were examples of a false faith, then I apologize.

They indeed are examples of a false faith, and are included in the True Faith...

If you were claiming they were legitimate actions of a Christian, then my first point stands as it is woefully wrong and contrary to God's word. (especially 3 and 4)

It is basically saying that Christian Faith does not have a monopoly on askesis...

Yet narrow and obstructed is the path leading to Life, and few are they that find it...

This is so because that way is Askesis...

Christ leads us to worship. Christ leads us to grateful humility in knowing we have no claim in regard to anything. The last two are rebuked in Colossians.

In the text I translated, the last two are included as similar to Christianity, but are not Christian...

All 4 are things which are a word seemingly having wisdom...

Just as the text states... "Seemingly, (but actually not,) having wisdom..." Which means that they imitate the Christian Faith in some ways (those enumerated), but are in fact false...

It is fairly straight-foreward...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I prefer the New Living Translation over the Arsenios translation.
Colossians 2:16-23
[16]So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
[17]For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
[18]Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,
[19]and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
[20]You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
[21]“Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
[22]Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
[23]These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

Notice that those who insist on pious self-denial are not connected to Christ. They are mere human teachings that are of little value.
But...Christ has set us free! How? Because when Christ died, we who are chosen also died with him. (This truth is presented in Galatians 2 and in Ephesians 2 as well as here.)
A Christian may think that severe discipline is of value, but it isn't. The ascetic life is a prideful life that calla attention to the outward works of man and places emphasis upon that persons action rather than on Christ and Christ crucified.
I studied the ascetics of North Africa and was profoundly saddened by their failure to grasp that Christ had paid it all and their actions were vain and selfish attempts to call attention to their self rather than Christ. Arsenios, please don't aspire to be like them. They epitomize what Paul condemned not what is admirable.

 

[NewCreation435]

Here is the literal:

atina estin logon
Which things are a word

men exonta sofiav
seemingly having wisdom

en eyeloyrhskeia
in willful worship

kai tapeinofrosunh
and humble-mindedness

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

ouk en timh tini
not in valuing anything

prov plhsmonhn thv sarkov
for fulfillment of the flesh


So that we can infer from this the following:

Christian Faith Biblically looks like this:
1) Willful worship
2) Humble-mindedness
3) Unsparing severity of body
4) In not valuing anything for the fulfillment of the flesh

From this the only conclusion is that askesis is Christian...
And that there is such a thing as un-Christian askesis...

This passage normally has terrible translations...

Arsenios

I'm not getting where you think the unsparing severity of the body quote is coming from. Your post was unclear to me. The passage is rebuking thinking that severe treatment of the body makes a person more holy or just in God's eyes. Paul was saying in essence, "It make look godly and right, but it is not and doesn't make you just before God."
In fact, we are trying by our words to add to the cross of Christ and earn grace then we are insulting God by suggesting His sacrifice wasn't good enough by itself

The actual verse says this
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

You notice it says that it has an "appearance of wisdom", yet it lacks any value.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not getting where you think the unsparing severity of the body quote is coming from. Your post was unclear to me. The passage is rebuking thinking that severe treatment of the body makes a person more holy or just in God's eyes. Paul was saying in essence, "It make look godly and right, but it is not and doesn't make you just before God."
In fact, we are trying by our words to add to the cross of Christ and earn grace then we are insulting God by suggesting His sacrifice wasn't good enough by itself

The actual verse says this
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

You notice it says that it has an "appearance of wisdom", yet it lacks any value.

atina estin logon
Which things are a word

men exonta sofiav
seemingly having wisdom

en eyeloyrhskeia
in willful worship

kai tapeinofrosunh
and humble-mindedness

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

ouk en timh tini
not in valuing anything

prov plhsmonhn thv sarkov
for fulfillment of the flesh

Let me put the above in more passable English, with commentary:

Whichever things are a word (teaching) seemingly having wisdom
So then we must ask: Which things appear to have Wisdom?

In fervent worship, in humble mindedness, and not sparing the body
Fervent worship and humble mindedness and bodily deprivation seem to have wisdom...

In not honoring anything for the fulfillment of the flesh
And this is the reason: Anything not honoring the fulfillment of the flesh...

The "Whichever things" refers to rules - Touch not, taste not, have no intercourse with, various worldly things...
These are the rules of the Mosaic Law...

It is because SOME of these "things" deny the flesh that they have the appearance of wisdom...
And three of them are enumerated in the text - Fervent worship, meekness, and self-denial of fleshly fulfillment...

It is NOT saying that these are evil, but that they are good, and because they are good, they can give the appearance of good, of wisdom, to things that are not of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not getting where you think the unsparing severity of the body quote is coming from.

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

The Greek grammar is: "Unsparing of body" Body is the genitive of afeidia... Strong's 857

You notice it says that it has an "appearance of wisdom", yet it lacks any value.

So how can unsparing of body have an appearance of wisdom unless it resembles wisdom?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

atina estin logon
Which things are a word

men exonta sofiav
seemingly having wisdom

en eyeloyrhskeia
in willful worship

kai tapeinofrosunh
and humble-mindedness

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

ouk en timh tini
not in valuing anything

prov plhsmonhn thv sarkov
for fulfillment of the flesh

Let me put the above in more passable English, with commentary:

Whichever things are a word (teaching) seemingly having wisdom
So then we must ask: Which things appear to have Wisdom?

In fervent worship, in humble mindedness, and not sparing the body
Fervent worship and humble mindedness and bodily deprivation seem to have wisdom...

In not honoring anything for the fulfillment of the flesh
And this is the reason: Anything not honoring the fulfillment of the flesh...

The "Whichever things" refers to rules - Touch not, taste not, have no intercourse with, various worldly things...
These are the rules of the Mosaic Law...

It is because SOME of these "things" deny the flesh that they have the appearance of wisdom...
And three of them are enumerated in the text - Fervent worship, meekness, and self-denial of fleshly fulfillment...

It is NOT saying that these are evil, but that they are good, and because they are good, they can give the appearance of good, of wisdom, to things that are not of Christ...

Reverse out the Greek grammar of enclosure, and you have:

Seemingly having a doctrine of wisdom in not honoring fleshly fulfillment,
by their fervent worship, meekness, and severe denial of the body...

From this, Christian askesis is affirmed... Because if Christian askesis is a false doctrine, then these practices would NOT "seemingly be a word of wisdom"... Indeed they DO seem to have some wisdom to them in that the DO look like Christian belief and practice...

Arsenios

They don't look like Christian belief and practice.
They look like worldly belief and practice and the text tells this to us.
The world celebrates and marvels at the severe discipline of pagans and works based religions. But, we who are identified in Christ have already died in Christ. We have been buried in Christ. We have been raised up with Christ. We have been seated in the heavenlies in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-7 and Colossians 3)
Our struggle is to live in this truth rather than live as pagans and the world.

 

[NewCreation435]

kai afeidia swmatov
and unsparing severity of body

The Greek grammar is: "Unsparing of body" Body is the genitive of afeidia... Strong's 857



So how can unsparing of body have an appearance of wisdom unless it resembles wisdom?

Arsenios

It does resemble wisdom to the human mind, but it is not wisdom. To seem like it is something and to actually be something is different. Even Satan pretends to be an angel of light.
most of the letter of Galatians speaks of this too as it has been said already in this thread. Paul exhorted the Galatians not to add to the gospel of Christ with works.

 

[Arsenios]

It does resemble wisdom to the human mind, but it is not wisdom.

Then we are forced to conclude that WHEN we actually do find wisdom, it will look like this...

To seem like it is something and to actually be something is different.

Exactly so - And the text is telling us in what ways it looks like true wisdom...

Even Satan pretends to be an angel of light.

Indeed he does, because God is Light... We cannot run from Light just because Satan's light is false, can we?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

They don't look like Christian belief and practice.

You are right, but only here in the west, and especially here in the US...

They look like worldly belief and practice

Worldly belief and practice glorify the flesh and fulfill its desires...

and the text tells this to us.

Where?

The world celebrates and marvels at the severe discipline of pagans and works based religions.

Do you mean the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA??

All professional sports do have severe discipline...

Some do think they are "religions" with "followers"...

They are very much "works based"...

And they have Christian parallels - Paul uses sports to explain the Faith:

1Cor 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all,
but one receiveth the prize?
So run, that ye may obtain.

What is the prize which we run to obtain?

Heb 12:1
...Let us run with patience
the race that is set before us...

The Christian Faith is a crucible of conflict
in an arena of contesting
wherein we are to overcome
the powers of darkness
within our own souls...

It is a war against evil powers and principalities...
In which we are to persevere to the end...
That we shall be saved...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You are right, but only here in the west, and especially here in the US...



Worldly belief and practice glorify the flesh and fulfill its desires...



Where?



Do you mean the NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA??

All professional sports do have severe discipline...

Some do think they are "religions" with "followers"...

They are very much "works based"...

And they have Christian parallels - Paul uses sports to explain the Faith:

1Cor 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all,
but one receiveth the prize?
So run, that ye may obtain.

What is the prize which we run to obtain?

Heb 12:1
...Let us run with patience
the race that is set before us...

The Christian Faith is a crucible of conflict
in an arena of contesting
wherein we are to overcome
the powers of darkness
within our own souls...

It is a war against evil powers and principalities...
In which we are to persevere to the end...
That we shall be saved...

Arsenios

Jesus already won the battle and the war on our behalf. We cannot merit God's favor by our disciplined life.
When the fruit of the Spirit is produced within us it is a beautiful thing. God feeds us, God sustains us, God produces within us.
Arsenios, your efforts are in vain. You will never be good enough. You will die in your trespasses and sins. You will miss the mark. You have no hope in your own efforts. You will utterly fail. Give up this unwinnable pursuit and let God do the work that He started in you.
You didn't earn God's favor by your actions and you won't sustain God's favor by your actions. That is the eternal message of Paul's letter to the Galatians.

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus already won the battle and the war on our behalf.

Indeed he did, and you and I are called of Him to FOLLOW HIM...

To deny your SELF...

To TAKE UP YOUR CROSS...

And to FOLLOW CHRIST...

Christ has done HIS part already...

Now it is YOUR job to follow Him...

And because He did,
and IF you desire,
you in Him will do so...

Or NOT...
IF...
You desire not to do so...

Arsenios