The actual Body and Blood, or just symbolic?

[Lamb]

@leaping through the night your posts are difficult to see because of the default background we have conflicting.

 

[BruceLeiter]

This is my body.

Sounds like it is His body.

He didn't mean that the disciples should come up and nibble on his leg or arm, did he? It's called a metaphor comparing a physical with a spiritual reality.

 

[leaping through the night]

Hello there " Lamb "

i'm sorry if there is something in the background, if there's anything i can do to make it better please let me know.



if we could take a closer look at one more passage of scripture here in " 1Co 10:16 + 17 "

here, we have the Greek word " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

this ancient Greek word today is translated as the word = Society

this Greek word means - = DEALING WITH SOCIETY =- partnership - fellowship - participation or (social) intercourse, - , communion, (contri-), distribution of words, messages or materials among society , fellowship.


please notice

1Co 10:16

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

of the blood of Christ?

The bread which we break, is it not the " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

of the body of Christ?

:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all " COMPANIONS / PARTNERS \ PARTAKERS of that one bread.​

here, the Greek word " κοινωνός - koinōnos " PARTNERS or PARTAKERS is the same Greek word


κοινωνός - koinōnos - a sharer, an associate: - companion, fellowship, partaker, partner


koinōnia and koinōnos are the same exact word only koinōnia means the action or method of how exactly the fellowship, communion, or joint participation takes place

and koinōnos means the individual persons involved in the partnership, companionship, and fellowship.

paul explains about communion

Rom 15:25 ........ I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. ..... to make a certain contribution / " communion " for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.



this is how the saints coming together become literally the " koinōnia - communion / PARTNERSHIP of the blood and body of Christ

we are many and we are all one bread, and one body: for we are all " COMPANIONS / PARTNERS \ PARTAKERS of that one bread.


Paul is describing the believers coming together as one body and one bread and one blood

1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread

paul is simply saying that

1Co 10:16

The cup of blessing - is the society / COMPANIONSHIP / PARTNERSHIP of the blood of the anointing / Christ

The bread which we break - is the society / COMPANIONSHIP / PARTNERSHIP of the body of the anointing / Christ​

this is how Paul uses the Greek words to describe the Lords Supper, all of the Greek words that we see have been tainted by tradition such as " Communion, Eucharist and Passover but each word has a basic meaning and purpose in describing the same exact Old Testament enactment of a Passover meal, a traditional Jewish dinner commemorating, memorializing and in memory and showing and proclaiming the Israelites' liberation from Egypt, with unleavened bread, wine, and lamb.



a basic supper where Christians are together in communion \as = koinōnos - sharers, associates: - companions, fellowshipping as partakers and as partners as themselves together are the one blood and one body of the anointing / christ

 

[Lamb]

Hello there " Lamb "

i'm sorry if there is something in the background, if there's anything i can do to make it better please let me know.



if we could take a closer look at one more passage of scripture here in " 1Co 10:16 + 17 "

here, we have the Greek word " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

this ancient Greek word today is translated as the word = Society

View attachment 2324

this Greek word means - = DEALING WITH SOCIETY =- partnership - fellowship - participation or (social) intercourse, - , communion, (contri-), distribution of words, messages or materials among society , fellowship.


please notice

1Co 10:16

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

of the blood of Christ?

The bread which we break, is it not the " communion = κοινωνία - koinōnia "

of the body of Christ?

:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all " COMPANIONS / PARTNERS \ PARTAKERS of that one bread.​

here, the Greek word " κοινωνός - koinōnos " PARTNERS or PARTAKERS is the same Greek word


κοινωνός - koinōnos - a sharer, an associate: - companion, fellowship, partaker, partner


koinōnia and koinōnos are the same exact word only koinōnia means the action or method of how exactly the fellowship, communion, or joint participation takes place

and koinōnos means the individual persons involved in the partnership, companionship, and fellowship.

paul explains about communion

Rom 15:25 ........ I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. ..... to make a certain contribution / " communion " for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.



this is how the saints coming together become literally the " koinōnia - communion / PARTNERSHIP of the blood and body of Christ

we are many and we are all one bread, and one body: for we are all " COMPANIONS / PARTNERS \ PARTAKERS of that one bread.


Paul is describing the believers coming together as one body and one bread and one blood

1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread

paul is simply saying that

1Co 10:16

The cup of blessing - is the society / COMPANIONSHIP / PARTNERSHIP of the blood of the anointing / Christ

The bread which we break - is the society / COMPANIONSHIP / PARTNERSHIP of the body of the anointing / Christ​

this is how Paul uses the Greek words to describe the Lords Supper, all of the Greek words that we see have been tainted by tradition such as " Communion, Eucharist and Passover but each word has a basic meaning and purpose in describing the same exact Old Testament enactment of a Passover meal, a traditional Jewish dinner commemorating, memorializing and in memory and showing and proclaiming the Israelites' liberation from Egypt, with unleavened bread, wine, and lamb.



a basic supper where Christians are together in communion \as = koinōnos - sharers, associates: - companions, fellowshipping as partakers and as partners as themselves together are the one blood and one body of the anointing / christ

Being one with Christ means He's present...which means when Jesus says This is my body, that it's true.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you view the act of Communion? Is it symbolic of what happened at the Last Supper, or do you believe in it transforming into the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

Jesus said, "this IS my body" and "this IS the cup of my blood" had he intended to say, "this means my body" and "this means the cup of my blood" it seems like he would have said it that way. Thus, I believe that it IS the body and it IS the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Jesus said, "this IS my body" and "this IS the cup of my blood" had he intended to say, "this means my body" and "this means the cup of my blood" it seems like he would have said it that way. Thus, I believe that it IS the body and it IS the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

@MoreCoffee, here are Jesus' seven "I AM" statements comparing himself to objects, actions, or people for spiritual lessons by claiming his deity:

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst."

Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Joh 10:13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Joh 11:27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”

All of Jesus' "I AM" claims are directly related to Exodus 3:13-15:

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee, here are Jesus' seven "I AM" statements comparing himself to objects, actions, or people for spiritual lessons by claiming his deity:

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst."

Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Joh 10:13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Joh 11:27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”

All of Jesus' "I AM" claims are directly related to Exodus 3:13-15:

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Do you say that Jesus is not the light of the world nor the resurrection and the life nor the good shepherd nor the door of the sheep nor I AM nor the bread of life, for me Jesus IS all of those titles which are either analogically true or ontologically true and fully applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ just as he IS the king of the kingdom and he IS the saviour of his people from their sins.

Jesus IS the bread broken for you and he IS the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, neither statement is a metaphor, both statements are sacramentally and non-metaphorically true of the Lord Jesus Christ.



The only bible I have ever encountered that makes Jesus' words about the wine and the cup into metaphors is The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of Jehovah's witnesses. That bible says; Matthew 26:26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: "TAKE, eat. This means my body." 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. (NWT)

 

[leaping through the night]

hello,.

1Co 5:7 ........For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;

but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

i agree with you , it's a very sad situation that "The New World Translation - of Jehovah's witnesses " has attempted to alter and remedy what they perceive to be a mistake or a miscommunicated text in the manuscripts.


Could this go to show how truly narrow minded and limited some religious organizations truly are to be completely unable to put their faith in the intended comprehension of metaphors, allegories, symbolisms and imagery

but the real question is why would Jesus continually use metaphors, allegories, symbolism

the reason is because Jesus is taking real life situations that people are focused upon and relating these distractions and focal points upon himself, which is the real meaning of salvation, eternal life and the voice of the Spirit of God.....in his word - Logos

for example --------- when the people were focused upon the temple and selling oxen, sheep and doves, and the exchanging of money, Jesus directed their focus and attention upon himself, using a metaphor or symbolism, relating himself and his own body to the temple.

BUT IN HIS symbolism - THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING HE WAS SAYING

JESUS WAS DECLARING THAT HIS LITERAL BODY WAS THE LITERAL TEMPLE BUILDING STANDING THERE IN JERUSALEM


Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, - Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


The people thought he was speaking of the literal temple but :22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

this is everywhere in the New Testament, Jesus is speaking to the multitude in parables and when he is all alone with his disciples he explains the literal meaning of the metaphors or symbolism

please remember

Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:



Please notice the words Jesus is saying in - “ Joh 6:55 “

my flesh is meat indeed,

and my blood is drink indeed.

Please notice that Jesus here is calling his flesh as meat and not as bread - - but his flesh is meat - so which is it ?


if we are going to take Jesus literally, - - is his flesh meat or is it bread ? ? ? ? ? ?

because he also calls himself as bread​

If we continue to take Jesus literally, let’s finish what he is saying about his flesh and blood -

and remember that the Bible describes the believers also as flesh and blood of the anointing / Christ
should we go deeper into revelation and begin eating one another in a Catholic Eucharist Mass ? ?

Just directly after Jesus proclaimed that his flesh and blood was meat and drink......Joh 6:61 ……….. Jesus knew …….. that his disciples murmured at his words…….. he said unto them, Doth this offend you?


Then Jesus explains exactly what he means, literally

:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Here Jesus is explaining that his literal flesh profits nothing: but the source of life whereby we have

life in us-
you shall live by me -
you shall live for ever -


because he is leaving the earth to go back upwards to heaven from where he came and his very words will be spirit and life

and Paul continues to use this very same example by again symbolizing and metaphorically comparing the WORD OF SCRIPTURE as milk and meat

this is how the Apostles and Disciples understand what Jesus was saying -- they continue his same example in their own writings in the same exact way that Jesus explained using parables, metaphors and symbolism,...


the bible refers to Jesus as our - passover, but what does it say about it ?

1Co 5:7 ........For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: :8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Mar 14:12 his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

:14 Jesus said............Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Joh 18:28 Jesus - might eat the passover.



the way that Paul understands the Passover of Jesus, is this made clear in Rom 15:25 ....... ? ?

. I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. ..... to make " communion " for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.


2Co 9:9 ....... gave to the poor .......... minister bread for your food ...... for your liberal communion unto them .


in final conclusion, i hope that Christians can read the original meaning of the manuscripts and take the original meaning for what it says without feeling that something has to be altered or ignored .... for with the surrounding context all things are made abundantly clear.

 

[Lamb]

hello,.

1Co 5:7 ........For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;

but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

i agree with you , it's a very sad situation that "The New World Translation - of Jehovah's witnesses " has attempted to alter and remedy what they perceive to be a mistake or a miscommunicated text in the manuscripts.


Could this go to show how truly narrow minded and limited some religious organizations truly are to be completely unable to put their faith in the intended comprehension of metaphors, allegories, symbolisms and imagery

but the real question is why would Jesus continually use metaphors, allegories, symbolism

the reason is because Jesus is taking real life situations that people are focused upon and relating these distractions and focal points upon himself, which is the real meaning of salvation, eternal life and the voice of the Spirit of God.....in his word - Logos

for example --------- when the people were focused upon the temple and selling oxen, sheep and doves, and the exchanging of money, Jesus directed their focus and attention upon himself, using a metaphor or symbolism, relating himself and his own body to the temple.

BUT IN HIS symbolism - THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING HE WAS SAYING

JESUS WAS DECLARING THAT HIS LITERAL BODY WAS THE LITERAL TEMPLE BUILDING STANDING THERE IN JERUSALEM


Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, - Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


The people thought he was speaking of the literal temple but :22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

this is everywhere in the New Testament, Jesus is speaking to the multitude in parables and when he is all alone with his disciples he explains the literal meaning of the metaphors or symbolism

please remember

Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:



Please notice the words Jesus is saying in - “ Joh 6:55 “

my flesh is meat indeed,

and my blood is drink indeed.

Please notice that Jesus here is calling his flesh as meat and not as bread - - but his flesh is meat - so which is it ?


if we are going to take Jesus literally, - - is his flesh meat or is it bread ? ? ? ? ? ?

because he also calls himself as bread​

If we continue to take Jesus literally, let’s finish what he is saying about his flesh and blood -

and remember that the Bible describes the believers also as flesh and blood of the anointing / Christ
should we go deeper into revelation and begin eating one another in a Catholic Eucharist Mass ? ?

Just directly after Jesus proclaimed that his flesh and blood was meat and drink......Joh 6:61 ……….. Jesus knew …….. that his disciples murmured at his words…….. he said unto them, Doth this offend you?


Then Jesus explains exactly what he means, literally

:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Here Jesus is explaining that his literal flesh profits nothing: but the source of life whereby we have

life in us-
you shall live by me -
you shall live for ever -


because he is leaving the earth to go back upwards to heaven from where he came and his very words will be spirit and life

and Paul continues to use this very same example by again symbolizing and metaphorically comparing the WORD OF SCRIPTURE as milk and meat

this is how the Apostles and Disciples understand what Jesus was saying -- they continue his same example in their own writings in the same exact way that Jesus explained using parables, metaphors and symbolism,...


the bible refers to Jesus as our - passover, but what does it say about it ?

1Co 5:7 ........For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: :8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Mar 14:12 his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

:14 Jesus said............Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Joh 18:28 Jesus - might eat the passover.



the way that Paul understands the Passover of Jesus, is this made clear in Rom 15:25 ....... ? ?

. I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. ..... to make " communion " for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.


2Co 9:9 ....... gave to the poor .......... minister bread for your food ...... for your liberal communion unto them .


in final conclusion, i hope that Christians can read the original meaning of the manuscripts and take the original meaning for what it says without feeling that something has to be altered or ignored .... for with the surrounding context all things are made abundantly clear.

Don't the original texts say "This is my body" ?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Do you say that Jesus is not the light of the world nor the resurrection and the life nor the good shepherd nor the door of the sheep nor I AM nor the bread of life, for me Jesus IS all of those titles which are either analogically true or ontologically true and fully applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ just as he IS the king of the kingdom and he IS the saviour of his people from their sins.

Jesus IS the bread broken for you and he IS the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, neither statement is a metaphor, both statements are sacramentally and non-metaphorically true of the Lord Jesus Christ.

View attachment 2326

The only bible I have ever encountered that makes Jesus' words about the wine and the cup into metaphors is The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of Jehovah's witnesses. That bible says; Matthew 26:26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: "TAKE, eat. This means my body." 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. (NWT)

Your list uses the word "metaphorical" truth. I think that you missed the discussion on poetic descriptions in your English classes. I was an English teacher with an English master's degree. When Jesus was speaking, he was not claiming to be a door or shepherd. He was using figurative words to describe spiritual realities. In other words, he claimed to the only way (door) into the safety of his powerful presence as God with the Father and the Spirit as our one God. He was actually a carpenter like Joseph, but he claimed to be David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1). He wasn't bread literally, but he is the only Source of spiritual nourishment for eternal life. Such is all the "I AM" claims.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your list uses the word "metaphorical" truth. I think that you missed the discussion on poetic descriptions in your English classes.

I think that's a condescending remark.

I was an English teacher with an English master's degree

and?

When Jesus was speaking, he was not claiming to be a door or shepherd. He was using figurative words to describe spiritual realities.

That's your take on it; it isn't consistent with Catholic theology nor with Catholic exegesis.

In other words, he claimed to the only way (door) into the safety of his powerful presence as God with the Father and the Spirit as our one God.

In other words, you claim that you have the competency to refute all of the ancient churches and the Lutherans and the Anglicans.

He was actually a carpenter like Joseph, but he claimed to be David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1). He wasn't bread literally, but he is the only Source of spiritual nourishment for eternal life. Such is all the "I AM" claims.

Yet he said, "I am the bread of life" and of the bread at the Holy Supper he said, "this is my body". Did the possibility cross your mind that bread is the earthly reflection of the heavenly bread that Christ said was his body?

 

[Frankj]

I was an English teacher with an English master's degree.

Jesus didn't speak English, he spoke Aramaic and probably Biblical Hebrew as well when he talked scripture with the various Rabbi's in the Temple.

His words are recorded in Koine Greek in the original texts of the Bible, English is a foreign language translation of them.

So obtain a masters degree in both Aramaic and Koine Greek if you want to use educational status to lend credibility to your words.

Just a suggestion.

 

[leaping through the night]

it is true that Jesus said literally " This is my body which is given for you and broken for you

this was the words Jesus was saying as he literally breaking the bread into smaller pieces


Jesus is taking the bread, breaking it up into smaller pieces and while he is doing this he says this is my body that is broken for you

JESUS HERE IS TEARING THE BREAD INTO PIECES AND BREAKING IT UP SHOWING AND DEMONSTRATING THE BREAKING PROCESS AS HIS VERY OWN BODY

Jesus took bread........and brake it saying - this do in remembrance of me.

that is it.

he brake it, saying - this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.



and this is what the Apostles did saying ......1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew, preach, declare and teach the Lord's death till he come

if we take Jesus literally without context - we would be crucifying people today to unite ourselves closer to Jesus

please notice Jesus literal words below
Mat 16:24 If any man will come after me........ take up his cross, and follow me.

Mrk 8:34 come after me...... take up your cross, and follow me.

Mrk 10:21 come......... take up the cross, and follow me.

Luk_9:23 If any man will come after me....... take up his cross daily, and follow me.


yet, no one has ever willingly taken up their cross and followed Jesus in his manner of death nor thought that Jesus intended people to literally pick up a cross and drag a literal cross to their death -

this is why Christians who do not rely upon the Traditions of Rome and Greece take the entire context of the Scriptures and put all of the context together and believe all of the entirety - the sum total, whole and fullness and complete message

and do not allow Tradition to contradict and override the scripture in its plain and simple meaning


there simply is no scripture that promotes or teaches a conversion process of bread and wine into a spiritual supernatural nourishment - the Greek and Roman Eucharist is only a tradition that has no scriptural foundation. -

imagination and fantasy do not convert the Greek word Eucharist into any other word but the word thankful



the holy thanks will always mean = the holy thanks - exactly as the author originally intended

 

[Lamb]

Older manuscripts don't have the addition of the word "broken" from what I've been researching.

 

[leaping through the night]

Older manuscripts don't have the addition of the word "broken" from what I've been researching.

that is something i will enjoy studying also, if you have any valuable information to share I would really appreciate that.

this may be true but can we consider the fact that both " Greek Catholic Orthodox Byzantine Text " + " Roman Catholic English Douay Rheims " bibles have the word " Brake Bread " referring to Jesus sitting, eating and breaking the bread into small pieces and saying this is my body that is being broken for you

this do in remembrance of me.


Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..........

the simple point I was trying to make is that the terminology of Eucharist in Greek simply means = " thanks "
and there just is not a communication to the reader that this is anything even close to a Catholic Eucharist Transubstantiation Mass


the Apostles are not doing this in the Scriptures and they even are pointing and indicating that the breaking of bread is just a simple supper that is used to preach, declare the message of Jesus, share the gospel and mainly used to feed the poor and needy ..

its not even mentioned as a part of salvation or as a permanent ministering ceremony that is critical or even important to anyone in the future beyond the small circle of disciples and those who directly knew Jesus personally.

Paul never knew Jesus and he insists upon nothing more than making food deliveries to the poor communities and asking that the Church observe a respectable sharing of the food and use it to preach, teach and show the death of the Lord within the church body and remember his death - for the Lords Supper. -

respectfully remembering, respectfully sharing, respectfully distributing that no one goes hungry - that the body of Christ will be not malnourished, sickly and even death among the body of believers be prevented - by sharing in honesty and distributing to the community.

is there any indication that any Church or Apostle have any Idea that the bread is supposed to be converted into spiritual nourishment

is there any indication that anyone in the Bible even knows anything about Catholic Eucharist Mass ?

all we see is a distribution to the poor, needy and hungry who are malnourished, sickly and even dying from lack of proper food and Paul Paul asks that a Supper be held to honor the Lord and that the food be properly and honestly distributed.

 

[Lamb]

that is something i will enjoy studying also, if you have any valuable information to share I would really appreciate that.

this may be true but can we consider the fact that both " Greek Catholic Orthodox Byzantine Text " + " Roman Catholic English Douay Rheims " bibles have the word " Brake Bread " referring to Jesus sitting, eating and breaking the bread into small pieces and saying this is my body that is being broken for you

this do in remembrance of me.


Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..........

the simple point I was trying to make is that the terminology of Eucharist in Greek simply means = " thanks "
and there just is not a communication to the reader that this is anything even close to a Catholic Eucharist Transubstantiation Mass


the Apostles are not doing this in the Scriptures and they even are pointing and indicating that the breaking of bread is just a simple supper that is used to preach, declare the message of Jesus, share the gospel and mainly used to feed the poor and needy ..

its not even mentioned as a part of salvation or as a permanent ministering ceremony that is critical or even important to anyone in the future beyond the small circle of disciples and those who directly knew Jesus personally.

Paul never knew Jesus and he insists upon nothing more than making food deliveries to the poor communities and asking that the Church observe a respectable sharing of the food and use it to preach, teach and show the death of the Lord within the church body and remember his death - for the Lords Supper. -

respectfully remembering, respectfully sharing, respectfully distributing that no one goes hungry - that the body of Christ will be not malnourished, sickly and even death among the body of believers be prevented - by sharing in honesty and distributing to the community.

is there any indication that any Church or Apostle have any Idea that the bread is supposed to be converted into spiritual nourishment

is there any indication that anyone in the Bible even knows anything about Catholic Eucharist Mass ?

all we see is a distribution to the poor, needy and hungry who are malnourished, sickly and even dying from lack of proper food and Paul Paul asks that a Supper be held to honor the Lord and that the food be properly and honestly distributed.

The breaking of the bread is not what I was referring to, it was the other part about the body being broken which seems to be a newer addition and not in the originals.

Paul's warning doesn't reflect any of that sentiment you try to insist upon. Here is the verse again:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:27

 

[BruceLeiter]

I think that's a condescending remark.

and?

That's your take on it; it isn't consistent with Catholic theology nor with Catholic exegesis.

In other words, you claim that you have the competency to refute all of the ancient churches and the Lutherans and the Anglicans.

Yet he said, "I am the bread of life" and of the bread at the Holy Supper he said, "this is my body". Did the possibility cross your mind that bread is the earthly reflection of the heavenly bread that Christ said was his body?

Have you ever considered the possibility that your Catholic teachings might be mistaken in their literalistic understanding of Jesus' "I AM" claims, @MoreCoffee? They do not take into consideration the contexts of the claims in the Gospel of John. Yes, other people besides those you mention can have insights to help you understand Jesus' sayings better. I'm talking about Protestants who might interpret it differently in the light of the contexts.

The Apostle Paul also said that all believers are Jesus' body; that is also a metaphor of a spiritual reality: 1Co_12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Have you ever considered the possibility that your Catholic teachings might be mistaken

Nope, never ever. Not once. NO no no no no

They do not take into consideration the contexts of the claims in the Gospel of John.

And you say this because?

I'm talking about Protestants who might interpret it differently in the light of the contexts.

Since I am not a protestant, I am wondering why you seem to expect me to follow your Protestant lead.

The Apostle Paul also said that all believers are Jesus' body; that is also a metaphor of a spiritual reality: 1Co_12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

1 Corinthians 12:24... God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, 25 that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues.

Cisero wrote (in Latin "Natura quæ formam nostram atque figuram, in qua esset species honesta, eam posuit in promptu; quæ partes autem corporis ad naturæ necessitatem datæ, aspectum essent deformem habituræ atque turpem, eas contexit atque abdidit.") - “Nature placed in view those aspects of our form and figure in which there was an honorable appearance; but the parts of the body given for the necessities of nature, which would have an unsightly and shameful look, she covered and concealed.” which saint Paul also observed about the body.

Now you - You Christians of Corinth, as a part of the whole church that has been redeemed.
Are the body of Christ - The allusion to the human body is here kept up. As all the members of the human body compose one body, having a common head, so it is with all the members and parts of the Christian church. The specific idea is, that Christ is the Head of the whole church; that he presides over all; and that all its members sustain to each other the relation of fellow-members in the same body, and are subject to the same head; compare the note at 1Cor 11:3. The church is often called the body of Christ; Eph 1:23; Col 1:18, Col 1:24.
And members in particular - You are, as individuals, members of the body of Christ; or each individual is a member of that body.

Once again, I wonder why you place the familiar and earthly before the heavenly. Here it is Christ who is the primary reference, his heavenly body is the reality and the church in Corinth is the earthly reflection of it. It is an error in your interpretation to place the earthly first.

 

[leaping through the night]

Paul's warning doesn't reflect any of that sentiment you try to insist upon. Here is the verse again:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:27

Hello again " Lamb "

i completely understand what you are saying but i think we can both agree that Paul is concerned about Christians who participate in the Lords Supper who act irreverently

i agree in that sense completely

but it seems that Paul's focus is strictly in dealing with those who behaving uncompassionately -those whom lack sympathy, pity and concern for the suffering, malnourished + hungry and even for the dying and whom who are sick from lack of access to the Lords supper.


i just don't see anything in this passage nor in any other passage that reflects any notion that there is something further mysteriously and supernaturally occurring other than what the passage says .


Paul is condemning Christians who participate in the Lords Supper who act irreverently by acting in a manner that is disorderly and damaging and even injuring others in the body of believers who are truly poor, needy, hungry unable to get the wine and food they need.


Yes, it is a sacred special event where they are coming together to preach, show and declare the death of the Lord by breaking bread in the memory of Jesus's death

but Paul's focus is not centered upon those who are refusing to attend nor is he focused upon those who may have sin in their life as many Christians proport in the Communion Ceremony....

Paul is writing to a group of confused, misinformed, desperate, poor and needy people who have begun to adopt alternative heretical ideas, who are just having a get together and missing the entire purpose of the Lords Supper - and Paul make it very clear to explain to a group who know absolutely nothing whatsoever about a " Catholic Eucharist Mass "

these people know absolutely nothing whatsoever about a " Catholic Eucharist Mass " but Paul drive home the only critical points he has in his concern

1. memory of the death of the Lord -- and -- 2. to shew, declare, preach and proclaim the death of the Lord

this is all Paul has - he has nothing else to stress but these two points

these two things are all that Paul has as very crucial and desperate attempts to pull this group together - make them understand the reverence and focus


1. memory of the death of the Lord -- and -- 2. to shew, declare, preach and proclaim the death of the Lord

he fails to mention - and ooh by the way this is the real presence of Catholic Eucharist Mass

if he is going to offer critical information in his letter - this would be the most important thing he could ever write - ..... but he does not write anything concerning the Catholic Mass.

He is doing everything he can to stress, stress and stress again - the importance of all of the things about the Lords Supper. ... how important it truly is

A Catholic Real Presence Eucharist is the only thing he accidently forgets


his condemnation is focused upon those

who are coming to simply get drunk and wasted - at the feast
who are coming to simply hoard all of the food before others who are hungry and needy - at the feast
who are coming and partaking of the food when they already have their own home's to eat and drink wine
who are coming to simply hoard all of the food before others who are hungry and needy - at the feast

Paul says to eat and drink at home and do not shame those who have not.

yes, he is bringing all of this together to focus on the true importance of eating and drinking and attending with respect, honor because the true purpose of even having the Lords Supper is to remember and preach and show / declare Jesus.


yes, he says if people just coming to eat and drink without discerning the sick, hungry, dying and malnourished then they dishonor the Lords Body and they also disrespect God.

 

[Lamb]

Hello again " Lamb "

i completely understand what you are saying but i think we can both agree that Paul is concerned about Christians who participate in the Lords Supper who act irreverently

i agree in that sense completely

but it seems that Paul's focus is strictly in dealing with those who behaving uncompassionately -those whom lack sympathy, pity and concern for the suffering, malnourished + hungry and even for the dying and whom who are sick from lack of access to the Lords supper.


i just don't see anything in this passage nor in any other passage that reflects any notion that there is something further mysteriously and supernaturally occurring other than what the passage says .


Paul is condemning Christians who participate in the Lords Supper who act irreverently by acting in a manner that is disorderly and damaging and even injuring others in the body of believers who are truly poor, needy, hungry unable to get the wine and food they need.


Yes, it is a sacred special event where they are coming together to preach, show and declare the death of the Lord by breaking bread in the memory of Jesus's death

but Paul's focus is not centered upon those who are refusing to attend nor is he focused upon those who may have sin in their life as many Christians proport in the Communion Ceremony....

Paul is writing to a group of confused, misinformed, desperate, poor and needy people who have begun to adopt alternative heretical ideas, who are just having a get together and missing the entire purpose of the Lords Supper - and Paul make it very clear to explain to a group who know absolutely nothing whatsoever about a " Catholic Eucharist Mass "

these people know absolutely nothing whatsoever about a " Catholic Eucharist Mass " but Paul drive home the only critical points he has in his concern

1. memory of the death of the Lord -- and -- 2. to shew, declare, preach and proclaim the death of the Lord

this is all Paul has - he has nothing else to stress but these two points

these two things are all that Paul has as very crucial and desperate attempts to pull this group together - make them understand the reverence and focus


1. memory of the death of the Lord -- and -- 2. to shew, declare, preach and proclaim the death of the Lord

he fails to mention - and ooh by the way this is the real presence of Catholic Eucharist Mass

if he is going to offer critical information in his letter - this would be the most important thing he could ever write - ..... but he does not write anything concerning the Catholic Mass.

He is doing everything he can to stress, stress and stress again - the importance of all of the things about the Lords Supper. ... how important it truly is

A Catholic Real Presence Eucharist is the only thing he accidently forgets


his condemnation is focused upon those

who are coming to simply get drunk and wasted - at the feast
who are coming to simply hoard all of the food before others who are hungry and needy - at the feast
who are coming and partaking of the food when they already have their own home's to eat and drink wine
who are coming to simply hoard all of the food before others who are hungry and needy - at the feast

Paul says to eat and drink at home and do not shame those who have not.

yes, he is bringing all of this together to focus on the true importance of eating and drinking and attending with respect, honor because the true purpose of even having the Lords Supper is to remember and preach and show / declare Jesus.


yes, he says if people just coming to eat and drink without discerning the sick, hungry, dying and malnourished then they dishonor the Lords Body and they also disrespect God.

That doesn't make sense because if the people were already sick/dying then warning about communion wouldn't even help them. That's why your explanation simply does not work.