The actual Body and Blood, or just symbolic?

[Lamb]

In all the churches I know about, they use grape juice instead of wine just for those who might have trouble with even a little bit of alcohol. I don't believe that God literally transforms the grape juice into Jesus' blood. He was speaking figuratively about spiritual reality in John 6, just as he did with all of his "I am" claims to say that he is truly God in the Gospel of John, thus saying, for example, that he is the God of Moses' burning bush and David's Shepherd (Psalm 23):

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Lutherans believe that John 6 is spiritual, not literal.

But Jesus did say, "This is my body" elsewhere.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Lutherans believe that John 6 is spiritual, not literal.

But Jesus did say, "This is my body" elsewhere.

However, in those passages he wasn't talking about his literal body either, was he @Lamb?

 

[Lamb]

However, in those passages he wasn't talking about his literal body either, was he @Lamb?

This is my body.

Sounds like it is His body.

 

[BruceLeiter]

This is my body.

Sounds like it is His body.

Jesus often speaks in metaphors comparing ordinary things and people with his spiritual reality: I am the door , the good Shepherd, the bread of life, and the true Vine in order to teach spiritual truths (compare with the seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John). John 6 is a perfect example of his teaching style that we can rely on to understand Communion. His flesh and blood are clearly figurative, spiritual comparisons to point us to his suffering and death on the cross with the "I am" pointing to Exodus 3, in which God gives his name as such.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

 

[leaping through the night]

I understand the perspective of the Lutheran and Catholic believers who believe that the

" Eucharist / Communion " = is literally the Body and Blood of Jesus ........ much can be discussed and looked at upon this mater, however with this said, one thing to consider is the reality that Jesus was preaching to a Hebrew people with ancient Hebrew customs and linguistics and language of specifically an ancient Hebrew tradition that was used by the Hebrew people of that day.

2000 years later, that part of the Hebrew language has not been passed down into the modern world in very many ways - - - perhaps because of the very Catholic Tradition of The Eucharist - itself....

meaning = the very Catholic Tradition of The Eucharist itself has changed an event in history where the Hebrew tradition has been lost and removed from the world

unless we use the terms such as --

" the tape machine ate up my tape
or
" the nail in the tree chewed up my saw
or
" take that information and digest it

these types of phrases and symbolic meanings are everywhere in the Old Testament - this is how the Hebrew people spoke and described things very, very often

the Old Testament uses hundreds of symbolic words for EAT - and DRINK other than the concept of - to crush, chew break apart, break down, devour, mash, pound, maw, chop, pulverize, reduce to pulp, puree, squash, tear into pieces and crush down and EAT

but the word of God – is to be chewed up and we swallow and digest the MEAT of God’s Word, and digest it into our hearts, minds and souls and feed it to others in the same way.

The Bible is filled with this symbolic meaning = Mic 3:2 Evil people pluck off the skin and flesh from the bones of my people; :

3 And EAT / consume/ devour the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: / EAT.

Rev 12:4 The dragon stood before the woman - to devour / EAT - her child as soon as it was born.

1Co 15:54 Death is SWALLOWED / DRANK - up in victory.
2Co 2:7 Forgive them, lest they be SWALLOWED / DRANK - up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 5:4 That mortality might be SWALLOWED / DRANK - up of life.
Mat 20:22 Are ye able to DRINK of the cup that I shall DRINK of ?
Rev 14:10 The same shall DRINK of the wine of the wrath of God,
Rev 18:3 For all nations have DRANK of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
1Co 12:13 Whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to DRINK into one Spirit.
Rev_12:16 The earth opened her MOUTH , and SWALLOWED / DRANK - up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 16:6 You have given the saints and prophets that were killed - blood to DRINK; for they are worthy. - { they DRANK symbolically DRANK / SWALLOWED - their own blood / life.

Joh 4::32 And Joh 4:32 I “ Yahoshu “ have MEAT to eat - that ye know not of. 34 My MEAT is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

we could post the hundreds of passages in the Old Testament that describe the Hebrew / Israelite tradition of using the term " EAT - DRINK - " and how it applies to everyday life


Job 6:30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my TASTE discern perverse things?

Job 12:11 Doth not the ear try “ the words Of God “ and the mouth TASTE God’ s meat?

Psa 34:8 O TASTE and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psa 119:103 How SWEET are thy words unto my TASTE yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

2Ti 2:16 Shun profane, vain babblings :17 These word will EAT as doth a canker / ulcer.

Joh 8:52 Yahoshua said - If a man keep my saying, he shall never TASTE of death.

Mat 16:28 and Luk 9:27 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not TASTE of death....

Joh 8:52 If a man keep my saying, he shall never TASTE of death.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall EAT your flesh as it were fire.

Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD.......and I will EAT thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father......

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is an EATING fire, a jealous God.

Heb 12:29 For our God is an EATING fire.

Gen 31:15 Rachel and Leah said that their father had EATEN up - consumed - our money.


in conclusion, please consider that Jesus said that we all must take up our " Cross " and follow him

does this literally mean everyone is to construct a cross and have themselves nailed to it ?

or is Jesus speaking symbolically ?

in my next post - please do read, as i do my best to take the passage into reality that mentions Jesus speaking to the multitudes and saying that they { MUST EAT HIS FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD }

 

[leaping through the night]

Here, Jesus was on the other side of the sea .........and that Jesus was not with his disciples - - - - his disciples were gone away alone;

:23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias. - people who knew very little about Jesus


Joh 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

we see further that - - :59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

in conclusion ............ the context is explaining that ......... these specific Jews who were not his disciples were disputing and arguing among themselves

not the disciples

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

eventually.........................these events and incidents of the words and teaching of what Jesus was teaching to unbelievers in the crowds and in the synagogue to unbelievers was discovered by the believers / disciples, .......the disciples who had already been taught by Jesus were not shocked, not arguing or confused about it but they were actually complaining and a little upset that Jesus would use such terminology in such a way that was shocking and in a the symbolic nature to deliberately - purposefully intend to shock and vilify and insult a crowd of people and a synagogue of people on purpose.

Jesus then asks his disciples does this scandalize - defame, disgrace, dishonor, slander, vilify, embarrass you ?

because Jesus was deliberately, purposefully intending to confuse and completely show dishonor and embarrass the crowds of unbelievers who were only with him because of the free food

Jesus speaking to his disciples asked them ----- does this scandalize you, - does this defame, disgrace, dishonor, slander, vilify, embarrass you ?

the Greek word here in skandalizō - skan-dal-id'-zo - scandalize, defame, disgrace, dishonor, slander, vilify, embarrass,

this is why many of his followers left him because he was purposefully confusing and insulting and condemning and making mockery of the unbelievers.,...... this offended and embarrassed some of his followers

Jesus was not intending to convert the bread into his literal physical flesh but was saying that the people were only interested in the food he had for them to eat therefore they did not accept his word nor would they truly understand or truly accept the words that were truth and spiritually nourishment.......

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: :40 that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted,

Act 28:26 Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Jesus explains to his disciples that the material flesh is not profitable

not helpful - not USEFULL

but it is the words he speaks and his teaching that is spirit and the life...and THE BREAD .... and is the context of everything ....

This is why he clarified .....when we eat the bread and drink the wine this done in remembrance / memory / memorial of me

if we take note of these basic facts within the context of the situation of what was said and what was happing into consideration as we read Joh 6 we can look past an ideology that hovers over a single sentence and read the meaning of the sentence in context to the event,

 

[Lamb]

2000 years later, that part of the Hebrew language has not been passed down into the modern world in very many ways - - - perhaps because of the very Catholic Tradition of The Eucharist - itself....

Lutheran pastors go through extensive training in learning Hebrew and Greek.

 

[leaping through the night]

.

I never have met a Lutheran believer before but I have seen some Lutheran churches.

I guess maybe it depends on which part of the country or even which part of the world one is located.

my previous post went into the Hebrew Tradition of how the Jews spoke and symbolized the idea of chewing, eating and digesting.

This is how the Jews spoke as a symbolic meaning. –

both positive and negative – whether it is an EATING fire or an EATING sword or an EATING army or an EATING famine that starves a civilization to death.

The same symbolic concept, model and reproduction of the allegorical metaphoric meaning - is also used as in the same exact way - - as the mind and the soul and in the symbolic actions - in the Bible we are “ ourselves “ spiritually and mentally devouring, consuming, assimilating, digesting, taking in, ABSORBING digest, gobbling, chomping, munching, wolfing down and eating the word of God and literally symbolically eating / digesting our Bible and eating God himself.

And God is symbolically eating the wicked by destruction and Yahoshua was eating, consuming, devouring and digesting - the will of God. -

In the Bible – this word transforms into the symbolic meaning of consumption and the Greek and Hebrew words are the same exact word and meaning as the literal word used as when they described – eating food and drink.

one last note as we look to the Greek Scriptures of the New Testament



In Mat 15:36, Joh 6:11, Mar 8:6 the term Eucharist has nothing to do with anything except for Being Thankful for the food.

We find - He took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave " Eucharist / Thanks " and gave to the multitude.

Joh 6:23 Jesus gave Eucharist / Thanks.

a few other verses where believers are giving " Eucharist / Thanks " – and it has nothing to do with food or the last supper.

Luk 17:16 The ten lepers who were healed gave " Eucharist / Thanks "
Luk_18:11 The Pharisee gave " Eucharist / Thanks "
Joh 11:41 Yahoshua said Father, I give " Eucharist / Thanks " to thee.
Act 28:15 The brethren gave " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.

Rom 1:8, Rom 7:25, 1Co 1:4, 1Co 10:30, 1Co 14:18, Php 1:3 Paul gave " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.
Rom 1:21 The unrighteousness do not give " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.
Rom 16:4, Col 1:3 Paul and all of the churches give Eucharist / Thanks.
1Co 14:17 You give " Eucharist / Thanks " and do well.
2Co 1:11 " Eucharist / Thanks " may be given.
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give Eucharist / Thanks
Eph 5:20 Giving Eucharist / Thanks always
Col_1:12, Col_3:17 Giving " Eucharist / Thanks " unto the Father.
1Th_1:2, 1Th_2:13, 2Th_1:3, Phm 1:4 We give " Eucharist/ Thanks " to God.
1Th_5:18 In everything give " Eucharist / Thanks "
Rev 11:17 twenty-four elders said - give you " Eucharist / Thanks " O Lord

even the terminology and meaning / definition of using the Greek word "" Eucharist / thanks " cannot be translated and used as a word associated with a modern language in the Catholic Mass.,

is this a truthful statement to say truly - that Roman Catholics must rely upon the process of leaving this word in Greek, ' - UNTRANSLATED - ?


Must Catholics leave it as nothing but as a tradition practiced by early Christians instead of translating the word into a modern language and being truthful about what the word literally means in the original language ?

leaving it ' - UNTRANSLATED - does not this hide the meaning and context ?

is the Catholic Mass become centered around a tradition alone - ? and not a Scriptural translated concept - not a word that is honestly translated into a modern language that honestly reflects how the word Eucharist is used in the Bible and understood in another language in context to the surrounding message and narrative ?

 

[Lamb]

.

I never have met a Lutheran believer before but I have seen some Lutheran churches.

I guess maybe it depends on which part of the country or even which part of the world one is located.

my previous post went into the Hebrew Tradition of how the Jews spoke and symbolized the idea of chewing, eating and digesting.

This is how the Jews spoke as a symbolic meaning. –

both positive and negative – whether it is an EATING fire or an EATING sword or an EATING army or an EATING famine that starves a civilization to death.

The same symbolic concept, model and reproduction of the allegorical metaphoric meaning - is also used as in the same exact way - - as the mind and the soul and in the symbolic actions - in the Bible we are “ ourselves “ spiritually and mentally devouring, consuming, assimilating, digesting, taking in, ABSORBING digest, gobbling, chomping, munching, wolfing down and eating the word of God and literally symbolically eating / digesting our Bible and eating God himself.

And God is symbolically eating the wicked by destruction and Yahoshua was eating, consuming, devouring and digesting - the will of God. -

In the Bible – this word transforms into the symbolic meaning of consumption and the Greek and Hebrew words are the same exact word and meaning as the literal word used as when they described – eating food and drink.

one last note as we look to the Greek Scriptures of the New Testament



In Mat 15:36, Joh 6:11, Mar 8:6 the term Eucharist has nothing to do with anything except for Being Thankful for the food.

We find - He took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave " Eucharist / Thanks " and gave to the multitude.

Joh 6:23 Jesus gave Eucharist / Thanks.

a few other verses where believers are giving " Eucharist / Thanks " – and it has nothing to do with food or the last supper.

Luk 17:16 The ten lepers who were healed gave " Eucharist / Thanks "
Luk_18:11 The Pharisee gave " Eucharist / Thanks "
Joh 11:41 Yahoshua said Father, I give " Eucharist / Thanks " to thee.
Act 28:15 The brethren gave " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.

Rom 1:8, Rom 7:25, 1Co 1:4, 1Co 10:30, 1Co 14:18, Php 1:3 Paul gave " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.
Rom 1:21 The unrighteousness do not give " Eucharist / Thanks " to God.
Rom 16:4, Col 1:3 Paul and all of the churches give Eucharist / Thanks.
1Co 14:17 You give " Eucharist / Thanks " and do well.
2Co 1:11 " Eucharist / Thanks " may be given.
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give Eucharist / Thanks
Eph 5:20 Giving Eucharist / Thanks always
Col_1:12, Col_3:17 Giving " Eucharist / Thanks " unto the Father.
1Th_1:2, 1Th_2:13, 2Th_1:3, Phm 1:4 We give " Eucharist/ Thanks " to God.
1Th_5:18 In everything give " Eucharist / Thanks "
Rev 11:17 twenty-four elders said - give you " Eucharist / Thanks " O Lord

even the terminology and meaning / definition of using the Greek word "" Eucharist / thanks " cannot be translated and used as a word associated with a modern language in the Catholic Mass.,

is this a truthful statement to say truly - that Roman Catholics must rely upon the process of leaving this word in Greek, ' - UNTRANSLATED - ?


Must Catholics leave it as nothing but as a tradition practiced by early Christians instead of translating the word into a modern language and being truthful about what the word literally means in the original language ?

leaving it ' - UNTRANSLATED - does not this hide the meaning and context ?

is the Catholic Mass become centered around a tradition alone - ? and not a Scriptural translated concept - not a word that is honestly translated into a modern language that honestly reflects how the word Eucharist is used in the Bible and understood in another language in context to the surrounding message and narrative ?

If it was only symbolic, then a warning wouldn't have been needed at all:

1 Corinthians 11:27
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

 

[leaping through the night]

Hello

thanks very much for taking time to reply, i have been so busy here lately with the farm, just mostly keeping the livestock safe during the freezing weather.

can we please review the passage in context of what the Bible explains

if we notice throughout the New Testament we do not find any mention whatsoever by the authors recording any of the Apostles or Disciples mentioning that the " BREAD AND WINE " is the flesh and blood of Jesus ..

this is not how anyone is describing the Lords supper, no one at any time suggests or mentions or labels the Lords Supper as the blood of Jesus - nor as the flesh of Jesus

they always refer to the Lords Supper always as " BREAD AND WINE "

furthermore Jesus is explaining and instructing that this be done " in remembrance of me "

this do in recollection of me.

​

1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

when the Lords supper is being mentioned and served it is never served as " flesh and blood " it is always mention by everyone in the Bible as = " BREAD AND WINE "


what the warning is referring to is how that the Church members are coming into the supper and creating total confusion


1. many have already eaten at home are not hungry - and they simply do not participate in the supper

2. many are simply coming to the supper and just drinking wine and getting drunk and getting intoxicated

3. and others who are very hungry - but are eating with others all around them who are just there to get drunk with others who already have eaten at home


1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


i honestly believe that Catholics and Lutherans are putting too much ceremonial tradition into the " Lords Supper " to imagine that this was an apostolic church tradition that was crucial and a mandatory importance that all believers go to the church and participate in the " Lords Supper "

i believe the passage shows that this is primarily a special charity event where people who are poor or hungry can attend the meeting and have a free supper and join together at a meal.

the Lords Supper here, is simply an event that the Church assembly is having for the poor and for those without

:25 as often as " WHENEVER " ye drink it - in remembrance of me.
:26 as often as " WHENEVER " you eat this bread

please notice three important things that Paul is saying about the " Lords Supper "

1.

:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul is explaining that each person must be honest and examine wither or not he is needing to come to the Lords Supper in order to eat. If they are not truly hungry they need not attend the Supper and can eat at home.

1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?

Paul is saying that those who abuse the free food are a shame to to the church and harming those others whom are truly poor and have no food .

stay home and eat - if you have food




also 2.

:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

the Greek word " shew " is = καταγγέλλω - kataggellō

meaning = to proclaim, promulgate: - declare, preach, shew, speak of, teach

1Co 11:26 shew - the Lord's death till he come.

Act 4:2 preached
Act 13:5 preached
Act 13:38 preached
Act 15:36 preached
Act 16:17 shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:21 teach
Act 17:3 preach
Act 17:13 preached
Act 17:23 declare
Act 26:23 shew
Rom 1:8 spoken of
1Co 2:1 declaring
1Co 9:14 preach
Php 1:16 preach
Php 1:18 preached
Col 1:28 preach

So Paul is explaining that the Lords Supper is not intended for those who have food at home and it is to preach and proclaim and declare the Lords death in a charity event for the poor and hungry


and 2.

Paul even explains

1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait one for another.​

in other words - take turns in proper order, if you know that someone else is truly hungry and you have food at home - then wait for that person to be fed at the supper and take your turn at a time when you are honestly without food....

:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation.

:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? ​

Paul is setting things in order for the feeding of the poor and hungry - not trying to invent a mandatory tradition of the entire church body under a regulation to crowd the church and eat up all of the free food.

i just simply see that Catholics and Lutherans put too much into the simple plain reading of the events and attempt to make the passages say something that they simply do not say in any way shape or form.

its just fantasy and imagination developed into a tradition and not what the original text says whatsoever in any way.

​

 

[leaping through the night]

what i means is, if we just read the plain text fore what it says without 2000 years of Roman Catholic tradition

the text of scripture never presents an importance and a commanding of anyone anyone to attend some religious super for the maintenance and upkeeping of their spiritual life and for critical salvation enactments.

the Church is poor, hungry, persecuted and taking turns feeding the poor - Paul is trying to preach the Gospel and preach the Lords death and asks that it not be abused by drunkenness and by wasting food on those who have food at home.

the Lords Supper truly does preach and shew the death of the savior

but what is presented in the scripture simply is not something that as presented by Catholicism and Lutheran traditions.

Paul is explaining the importance of attending with a true need and hunger - those who have drink and food at home must allow those who are hungry to have full access to the Lords supper.

 

[Lamb]

what i means is, if we just read the plain text fore what it says without 2000 years of Roman Catholic tradition

the text of scripture never presents an importance and a commanding of anyone anyone to attend some religious super for the maintenance and upkeeping of their spiritual life and for critical salvation enactments.

the Church is poor, hungry, persecuted and taking turns feeding the poor - Paul is trying to preach the Gospel and preach the Lords death and asks that it not be abused by drunkenness and by wasting food on those who have food at home.

the Lords Supper truly does preach and shew the death of the savior

but what is presented in the scripture simply is not something that as presented by Catholicism and Lutheran traditions.

Paul is explaining the importance of attending with a true need and hunger - those who have drink and food at home must allow those who are hungry to have full access to the Lords supper.

The Orthodox church also adheres to the real presence in Holy Communion. Why else is it called "Holy Communion" if something holy wasn't happening? Paul's warnings were so severe, so it wasn't just about being reverent, he understood that when Jesus said, "This is my body" that Jesus meant it.

 

[Lamb]

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

If the Lord's Supper was only symbolic, there would be no warning about taking it wrongly, and having people get sick and die because of their lack of faith in the real presence.

 

[Can't think of a name]

1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

If the Lord's Supper was only symbolic, there would be no warning about taking it wrongly, and having people get sick and die because of their lack of faith in the real presence.

Do people get sick and die when they don't eat a wafer and drink some wine? How often does this phenomena happen in the world to every person? Is there any way to verify it?

1 Conrinthians "Without discerning the body of Christ" is not about Jesus body physically but about the church body.

 

[Lamb]

Do people get sick and die when they don't eat a wafer and drink some wine? How often does this phenomena happen in the world to every person? Is there any way to verify it?

1 Conrinthians "Without discerning the body of Christ" is not about Jesus body physically but about the church body.

People get sick and die because of original sin.

What does that have to do with Paul saying "That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." pertaining to taking the Lord's Supper?

 

[Can't think of a name]

People get sick and die because of original sin.

What does that have to do with Paul saying "That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." pertaining to taking the Lord's Supper?

Because you made it sound like if people in that church did not take communion they would die. I was being tongue in cheek a bit. The point I made is that not taking communion doesn't cause people to be sick and die. It is taking it while living in sin that seems to do that. And Jesus is not a wafer.

 

[Lamb]

Because you made it sound like if people in that church did not take communion they would die. I was being tongue in cheek a bit. The point I made is that not taking communion doesn't cause people to be sick and die. It is taking it while living in sin that seems to do that. And Jesus is not a wafer.

Jesus is not a wafer, no one said that. His body and blood are in, with and under the bread and wine.

 

[Can't think of a name]

Jesus is not a wafer, no one said that. His body and blood are in, with and under the bread and wine.

That sounds mystical. Like you would have some spiritual experience by eating the wafer and drinking the wine. I don't subscribe to that personally. In fact, it could even be considered demonic in some examples.

 

[leaping through the night]

.hello

It was truly enjoyable reading the comments, I do appreciate opportunity to reply.

What is really happening ?

Please consider that in “ 1st Corinthians “ Paul is writing a letter to the Church explaining and describing that many Christians there in Corinth are experiencing great hunger, weakness, sickness, malnourishment and even death.

poor and needy members of the CHURCH BODY are suffering, without food, and are coming to the Supper and there is no food left for them.

Paul does his best to eradicate all heresy and waste on all extremes by dealing with the problem of many whom are attending for the sole purpose of getting drunk, others are eating all of the food when they already have plenty of food at home.

And Paul explains :22 What?..... have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not ?

This is what is happening in the Church at Corinth and this is how the Paul understands the Lords Supper.

As it is written through the entire Bible ……… ……… there is not a single indication or even any suggestion any church nor writer is aware of anything called “ Mass “ nor aware of anything relating to the called “ EUCHARIST “


remember - the situation is described as where many Christians in Corinth are experiencing hunger, sickness and even death, other people in coming to the Supper and getting drunk, and others are being dishonest about their food supply, as they have food at home and come to the supper and shame and dishonor the hungry and needy

there are Christians there whom truly are needy, hungry, poor, weakened, sick, malnourished

Christians are dying from literal physical malnourishment

poor and needy Christians are not able to participate and get the nourishment and food they need – they are sick and even death is resulting in total lack of honor disorganization at the Lords Supper.

 

[leaping through the night]

furthermore ............... please consider

the church is being heavily persecuted and once someone accepts Jesus and becomes a Christian their relationship with the world begins to crumble, as the newly converted are needing access to the food and wine as they are dying from malnourishment.

THIS IS PAULS CONCERN - Paul is not concerned whatsoever about the turning of a loaf of bread and a cup of wine into a sacramental spiritual event where people are participating in some ceremonial procession !

Paul is saying that the Lords Supper is intended to be a - preaching and declaration of the MEMORY - of Jesus

showing as a remembrance / recollection - of Jesus - they are to come together and provide the supper and share with the needy - - simply as to show, preach and declare the death and sacrifice of the Lord……..

please notice the Greek word in “” Lords supper. “”

1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the - Lord’s supper. “”

The Greek word is = δεῖπνον - deipnon = supper

Just as the Greek word Eucharist means = “ thanks “

Just as the Greek word Deipnon means = “ supper “


THE LORDS SUPPER HERE IS A FEAST OR A DINNER PARTY
- δεῖπνον = SUPPER - banquet - feast

THE LORDS SUPPER IS CELEBRATION - WHERE THE BODY COME TOGETHER AND FEAST....“ THEY EAT TO FILL THEIR HUNGER “ AND THEY EVEN ENJOY WINE AND DRINK TO ENJOY IT

Mat 23:6 + Mrk 12:39 + Luk 20:46 - the ….. rooms at - FEAST / SUPPERS - δεῖπνον

Mar 6:21 on his birthday made a - FEAST / SUPPER - δεῖπνον


The Parable of the Great Banquet

Luk 14:12+ 16+ 17+ 24 a dinner or a - supper - δεῖπνον

Jhn 12:2 at SUPPER - δεῖπνον
Jhn 13:2+ 4 at SUPPER - δεῖπνον
Jhn 21:20 at SUPPER - δεῖπνον
1Co 11:21 at SUPPER - δεῖπνον
Rev 19:9 the SUPPER - δεῖπνον
Rev 19:17 the SUPPER - δεῖπνον

THE LORDS SUPPER HERE IS A FEAST OR A DINNER PARTY
- δεῖπνον = SUPPER - banquet - feast

This is the Greek word translated into English and context and meaning of the word just as the Greek word

just as the Greek word Eucharist means = “ thanks “

the Church comes together to have a δεῖπνον = SUPPER - banquet - feast and they are commanded to supply the food and wine for the body to sustain them from hunger, weakness, sickness, malnourishment and even death.


This is Paul’s concern - ​

nowhere do we see any notion of a Roman or Greek ceremony where people are expecting to partake of a conversion process where bread and wine becomes converted into flesh and blood that is a mandatory, critical, crucial and vital part of their salvation wherein their doom and destruction and danger befalls by not recognizing and accepting bread and wine as a sacrament.

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The message simply does not exist in the Bible …
In fact - it’s the total opposite, the writers continually deviate from any such notion throughout the entire Bible.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday………

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; :4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


The Bible withdraws completely from any notion of ........
“ Mass Eucharist “ Greek \ Roman ceremony system - and the Bible describes the Spirit of anointing upon Jesus as the nourishment of the human spirit

and never is there any mention whatsoever of a Roman or Greek tradition that converts, adapts and transforms physical food into something that sustains or elevates a spiritual unity with God.


Roman Catholics simply have no manuscripts for their faith system.​