Stealing to feed a starving child

[Jazzy]

What are your thoughts on stealing to feed a starving child?

 

[Rene Loup]

Stealing someone else's property under the reasoning of needing it more than the legal owner is the same logic used by any other thief, whether it be a twenty-five cent gumball or a priceless national treasure. Criminals consistently display senses of entitlement, lack of empathy, and other ways of rationalizing their immoral behavior.[6][7]

Theft, even to benefit the vulnerable, will inevitably hurt someone else. One example was Limewire. It may not seem like a big deal illegally downloading a copyrighted song worth $0.99, but it really does build up over time. Before shutting down, Limewire is estimated to have been responsible for between US$400 Billion and US$75 Trillion worth of copyright infringement damages.[1] And this is just ONE industry that isn't even a daily need.

Another example are the Indian phone scammers claiming to work for Microsoft.[3][4][5] While it can be argued that living in an impoverished country[2] gives them enough justification to do this, their most common targets are the elderly and inexperienced (including the underaged and developmentally disabled), two other vulnerable groups.[3][4][5]

Being a victim does not automatically put one on the moral high ground. How one responds to victimization, however, does.[10]
Because of these realities, the Bible condemns theft,[8] no matter the reasoning behind it.[9]

1. RIAA Thinks LimeWire Owes $75 Trillion in Damages
2. Poverty in India: Facts and Figures on the Daily Struggle for Survival
3. Virus phone scam being run from call centres in India
4. https://www.fastcompany.com/90341507/tech-support-scams-stealing-millions-from-the-elderly
5. Older adults hardest hit by tech support scams
6. (PDF) Narcissism and Empathy in Young Offenders and Non-Offenders
7. From the Mouths of Criminals
8. Deuteronomy 5:19-21, Ephesians 4:25-28, Exodus 20:15-17
9. Proverbs 12:15, 15:2-23, 26:12
10. Matthew 5:38-48, 1 Peter 3:8-22, Romans 12:9-21

 

[tango]

... although one flip side is how the Old Testament has specific rules to allow people to take enough to meet immediate needs, and requires farmers to leave the crops at the edges of their fields so people can glean them, and to leave behind crops they drop while gathering for gleaners.

Sites like LimeWire aren't a relevant comparison. I'm not going to literally starve if I don't get a free copy of that song I should have paid 99c for - it's simply a way to avoid paying for the sake of convenience rather than absolute necessity. I can't help thinking there's quite a lot of difference between taking a free copy of something just because you'd rather not pay for it, and taking something you need to survive when you have no means to pay for it.

Perhaps in an ideal world you could offer to work for the store for an hour in exchange for some food, but I can't see that sort of thing working. The gleaners of old have been pretty much shut out of society.

 

[Rene Loup]

... although one flip side is how the Old Testament has specific rules to allow people to take enough to meet immediate needs, and requires farmers to leave the crops at the edges of their fields so people can glean them, and to leave behind crops they drop while gathering for gleaners.

Gleaning was an early form of a legal welfare system,[1] not an unauthorized act of taking another person's possessions.

Sites like LimeWire aren't a relevant comparison. I'm not going to literally starve if I don't get a free copy of that song I should have paid 99c for - it's simply a way to avoid paying for the sake of convenience rather than absolute necessity. I can't help thinking there's quite a lot of difference between taking a free copy of something just because you'd rather not pay for it, and taking something you need to survive when you have no means to pay for it.

The point I was trying to make is that it causes economic damage. If food is stolen, not only is that a physical possession providing a daily need lost, but also a source of income for the original owner. LimeWire has proven that level of financial damage is possible and can profoundly hurt the entire economy if theft runs rampant like that.

For a more Biblical context, Middle Eastern people during those days were incredibly dependent on sheep for their meat, wool, and other parts of the animal.[2] These provided food, clothing, and a source of income to make other purchases sheep cannot provide. Losing one sheep would have been a huge loss of investment, providing the context of the Parable of the Lost Sheep.[3]

Perhaps in an ideal world you could offer to work for the store for an hour in exchange for some food, but I can't see that sort of thing working. The gleaners of old have been pretty much shut out of society.

Again, welfare systems exist in many countries today, providing MUCH less excuse for theft. Sadly, it is not universal[10] and this is where we come in.[11] There are charities,[4] Christian missions,[5] and other ways of helping the poor.[6][7][8] This is where our compassion is put to the test.[9]

1. What Is Gleaning? Past, Present & Future - Food Forward
2. Manners & Customs: Shepherd life; the care of sheep and goats | AHRC
3. Luke 15:1-7
4. Chalice, Samaritan's Purse, Salvation Army, World Vision, and others.
5. 8 Types of Missionary Work That Make a Lasting Impact
6. Click to Donate FREE! Make free donations to 70 Charities. Nonprofit & volunteer links!
7. How to Help Improve the Lives of the Poor
8. Evaluating The Best Ways to Give to the Poor: Guest post by Bruce Wydick
9. 2 Corinthians 9:6-15, Matthew 25:31-46
10. Deuteronomy 15:11, Matthew 6:6-13
11. Acts 20:32-35, Deuteronomy 15:7-11, 1 John 3:16-18, Luke 14:12-14, Proverbs 14:31, 17:5, 19:17, 21:13, 22:9, 22:22-23, 28:27, 29:7, 31:8-9

 

[tango]

Gleaning was an early form of a legal welfare system,[1] not an unauthorized act of taking another person's possessions.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly, a means of feeding yourself from the fruits of another's labors. Not entirely unlike taking a couple of ears of corn from a store without paying for them.

The point I was trying to make is that it causes economic damage. If food is stolen, not only is that a physical possession providing a daily need lost, but also a source of income for the original owner. LimeWire has proven that level of financial damage is possible and can profoundly hurt the entire economy if theft runs rampant like that.

[/QUOTE]

The level of financial damage is only possible through sites like Limewire because of the way something can be endlessly duplicated. An eternal question that can never be answered as far as piracy is concerned is how to measure the actual loss. If someone rips off a copy of a $500 piece of software there's no realistic way to determine whether they would ever have actually paid full price for it had they not had access to an illegal copy. Hence it's not as simple as saying the creator "lost $500" because there's a good chance they actually lost nothing of the sort. When things can be endlessly duplicated (digital music, digital images, software etc) it's also harder to quantify the actual cost to the creator. It's very loosely like the difference between someone taking your coat away from you, and someone taking copies of your correspondence without your permission.

For a more Biblical context, Middle Eastern people during those days were incredibly dependent on sheep for their meat, wool, and other parts of the animal.[2] These provided food, clothing, and a source of income to make other purchases sheep cannot provide. Losing one sheep would have been a huge loss of investment, providing the context of the Parable of the Lost Sheep.[3]

Again, welfare systems exist in many countries today, providing MUCH less excuse for theft. Sadly, it is not universal[10] and this is where we come in.[11] There are charities,[4] Christian missions,[5] and other ways of helping the poor.[6][7][8] This is where our compassion is put to the test.[9]

1. What Is Gleaning? Past, Present & Future - Food Forward
2. Manners & Customs: Shepherd life; the care of sheep and goats | AHRC
3. Luke 15:1-7
4. Chalice, Samaritan's Purse, Salvation Army, World Vision, and others.
5. 8 Types of Missionary Work That Make a Lasting Impact
6. Click to Donate FREE! Make free donations to 70 Charities. Nonprofit & volunteer links!
7. How to Help Improve the Lives of the Poor
8. Evaluating The Best Ways to Give to the Poor: Guest post by Bruce Wydick
9. 2 Corinthians 9:6-15, Matthew 25:31-46
10. Deuteronomy 15:11, Matthew 6:6-13
11. Acts 20:32-35, Deuteronomy 15:7-11, 1 John 3:16-18, Luke 14:12-14, Proverbs 14:31, 17:5, 19:17, 21:13, 22:9, 22:22-23, 28:27, 29:7, 31:8-9

There are all sorts of things that churches and Christians should be doing. It's just a bit lame to blame the truly desperate for their plight when systems fail them.

 

[Rene Loup]

Exactly, a means of feeding yourself from the fruits of another's labors. Not entirely unlike taking a couple of ears of corn from a store without paying for them.

Welfare[9] is legal[1] because it is mandated by law.[1] Taking another person's possessions without their consent is not.[2]
There is a very big difference between these two concepts.

The level of financial damage is only possible through sites like Limewire because of the way something can be endlessly duplicated. An eternal question that can never be answered as far as piracy is concerned is how to measure the actual loss. If someone rips off a copy of a $500 piece of software there's no realistic way to determine whether they would ever have actually paid full price for it had they not had access to an illegal copy. Hence it's not as simple as saying the creator "lost $500" because there's a good chance they actually lost nothing of the sort. When things can be endlessly duplicated (digital music, digital images, software etc) it's also harder to quantify the actual cost to the creator. It's very loosely like the difference between someone taking your coat away from you, and someone taking copies of your correspondence without your permission.

It is still a loss of income for the creator because of unauthorized copying and distribution. There are people out there whose livelihoods depend on making and selling content such as creative writing, art, and music. If people keep violating copyright laws, creative artists will lose income that puts food on the table. What about their right to make an honest living?[8]

When it comes to theft, whether physical or digital, one person benefits at the expense of another. The most basic definition of sin is anything that causes oneself[3] and others harm.[4] It does not and cannot get any simpler than that.

There are all sorts of things that churches and Christians should be doing. It's just a bit lame to blame the truly desperate for their plight when systems fail them.

The Bible condemns theft.[5] Most, if not all, human systems also condemn theft.[6] The Bible backs up their right to outlaw theft.[7]

Here's my question to you: Would you be OK with someone stealing your cellphone, tablet, laptop, or any other valuables and then selling them at a pawn shop for any reason at all? Even when you paid hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars for these things? If so, did that benefit or harm you? Even if you forgave that person and he does it again and again, how would you feel about that?

1. Definition of LEGAL
2. Definition of THEFT
3. 1 Corinthians 6:12-20, 15:29-34, Daniel 1:8-16, Galatians 6:7-10, Proverbs 16:18-19, Matthew 27:1-5, Romans 6:19-23, 1 Timothy 6:9-10
4. Genesis 4:1-14, 34:1-31, James 3:1-18, Mark 7:14-23, Matthew 5:21-30, Proverbs 1:8-19, Romans 13:8-10, 1 Samuel 17:57-18:16
5. Deuteronomy 5:19-21, Ephesians 4:25-28, Exodus 20:15-17
6. 

   Theft - Wikipedia

   en.wikipedia.org
7. Luke 20:20-26, Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:15-22, 1 Peter 2:11-25, Romans 13:1-7
8. Acts 10:34-35, Exodus 23:1-9, James 2:1-13, Leviticus 19:15, Romans 2:5-16
9. Welfare Definition

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Is there some ethical distinction to be made between a starving child and any other starving being?

That aside, many communities have community kitchens, food donation programs, etc. from which any person would be able to receive food that one may conceivably think to "steal" - unless the item in mind to steal may be a steak or fish filet. I can think of two organizations locally where one could go for lunch and dinner every day, no questions asked

 

[Lamb]

Is there some ethical distinction to be made between a starving child and any other starving being?

That aside, many communities have community kitchens, food donation programs, etc. from which any person would be able to receive food that one may conceivably think to "steal" - unless the item in mind to steal may be a steak or fish filet. I can think of two organizations locally where one could go for lunch and dinner every day, no questions asked

You're right. There are plenty of those around and people can also go to churches and ask if they can assist and the pastors at the churches I have been to will give vouchers for food and utilities if needed. Some people end up going to the churches hoping for money so they can buy drugs or alcohol which is why vouchers have become a necessity.

 

[Asuk]

What are your thoughts on stealing to feed a starving child?

King James Bible
Thou shalt not steal

Nuff said

 

[tango]

Welfare[9] is legal[1] because it is mandated by law.[1] Taking another person's possessions without their consent is not.[2]
There is a very big difference between these two concepts.

This really does nothing to address the point I was making. There's also the small matter that "legal" and "moral" aren't always one and the same. Something can be moral without being legal and something can be legal without being moral.

It is still a loss of income for the creator because of unauthorized copying and distribution. There are people out there whose livelihoods depend on making and selling content such as creative writing, art, and music. If people keep violating copyright laws, creative artists will lose income that puts food on the table. What about their right to make an honest living?[8]

I never disputed any of this, I merely noted that assuming the copying of a $500 digital item meant the creator was deprived of $500 is an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation. The person using the illegal copy wouldn't necessarily have bought it at all, hence it's not as simple as saying the owner is $500 poorer as a result. It's not to say that illegal copying has no impact, merely that it has less impact than many like to say.

It's a side point anyway because the chances are the starving child in the example isn't going to be helped much by a bootlegged copy of Photoshop or the latest cool album.

When it comes to theft, whether physical or digital, one person benefits at the expense of another. The most basic definition of sin is anything that causes oneself[3] and others harm.[4] It does not and cannot get any simpler than that.

Unfortunately it does, unless you want to argue that taking a few ears of corn from someone's field (as expressly permitted in the OT) doesn't cause the farmer any harm at all.

The Bible condemns theft.[5] Most, if not all, human systems also condemn theft.[6] The Bible backs up their right to outlaw theft.[7]

The Bible condemns theft but clearly in OT times it wasn't considered theft to take some crops from a field to feed yourself, and so clearly Scripture doesn't consider that to be theft. It makes a clear distinction that you're allowed to eat right there and then but you're not allowed to take it away with you.

Here's my question to you: Would you be OK with someone stealing your cellphone, tablet, laptop, or any other valuables and then selling them at a pawn shop for any reason at all? Even when you paid hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars for these things? If so, did that benefit or harm you? Even if you forgave that person and he does it again and again, how would you feel about that?

There is quite a difference between someone taking a couple of ears of corn from my field, and someone taking my cellphone. You know, the difference between someone taking the share of the crops that might have fetched a buck or two at the market, and someone taking a $500 device to sell for $10. If you want to talk about gains and losses there's a clear difference there. To equate taking the minimum you need to feed a starving child, with causing ever-increasing loss to another for a minimal gain, starts to get a bit silly. Equating taking a couple of ears of corn from a cornfield with causing thousands of dollars worth of damage as you smash your way through fences and storage facilities, maybe breaking down doors and letting farm animals escape, to steal the same two ears of corn, clearly isn't comparing like with like.

Taking a couple of ears of corn to feed yourself if you otherwise would not eat benefits you far more than the buck or two it might have cost the person who grew the corn. Stealing a device to sell for $10 to buy food, when it would cost the owner $500 or more to replace that device, shifts the dynamic around completely.

There is arguably a distinction to be made (even though it's not in the OT) between someone taking what isn't theirs to literally stay alive, and someone taking what isn't theirs because they don't feel like using their own money to pay for it.

I don't see it as unreasonable to expect people to avail themselves of legal means to feel themselves before they resort to taking crops. I'm thankful I've never been in a situation where I've had to choose between crime or hunger. I have known a few people who have been through the mangle where public welfare is concerned and who have commented that although it's a good safety net in theory it doesn't always work out very well.

 

[tango]

You're right. There are plenty of those around and people can also go to churches and ask if they can assist and the pastors at the churches I have been to will give vouchers for food and utilities if needed. Some people end up going to the churches hoping for money so they can buy drugs or alcohol which is why vouchers have become a necessity.

Vouchers don't necessarily solve that problem. If you give someone a $50 food voucher and what they really wanted was money to buy drugs the chances are they'll sell that voucher, maybe at a discount, and still use the money to buy drugs.

Our area has a particular individual who is known to all the local churches. This person invents one sob story after another after another, each more implausible than the last, and is well known to latch onto a church that helps once until they stop handing over money, then moves on to the next church. This person needs help, just not the help they are seeking (I'm being deliberately vague so as not to inadvertently identify anyone). Sadly people like this make it harder to get help where it's truly needed.

One other thing I've often noticed, which also makes it hard to target help, is that those with the greatest need tend to be the least vocal about it, and the most vocal tend not to have the greatest needs.

 

[Member4592]

What are your thoughts on stealing to feed a starving child?

Sure. I'd break the law to feed a starving child. But then again I have money. Funny how everyone is against abortion. But they won't break any of their 10 Commandments to keep a child from dying from starvation. I'd call that a double standard.

 

[Lamb]

Sure. I'd break the law to feed a starving child. But then again I have money. Funny how everyone is against abortion. But they won't break any of their 10 Commandments to keep a child from dying from starvation. I'd call that a double standard.

Why would they have to break a commandment when we can show them the proper avenues for getting food such as vouchers at our churches? Some churches even have food banks. No need to steal.

 

[Bluezone777]

Sure. I'd break the law to feed a starving child. But then again I have money. Funny how everyone is against abortion. But they won't break any of their 10 Commandments to keep a child from dying from starvation. I'd call that a double standard.

I much rather doubt you would be all that happy if someone broke the commandment to not steal and stole all your stuff to feed that child. As you can see, it only looks good to you until you get to be the one who is being robbed then you will see it doesn't work quite the way you thought it would.

 

[Stravinsk]

What are your thoughts on stealing to feed a starving child?

Funny that you should ask.

When I was a kid my parents told me to finish all that was on my plate because there were children starving in Africa. Multi-year drought was the reason given for this.

Later I learned that a far bigger factor were indigenous lands being taken by Corporations to raise either:

A) Stock animals (beef, pig, etc)
B) Grains to feed stock animals

Locals forced or pressured off their land with nothing to eat was one big reason for the pictures of starving children we saw. Of course the news made it look like the west was "helping", when in reality they were exploiting and murdering people in Africa - for greed and profit, and to reduce the African population lest it become a threat to the west.

All this is made possible by the Market for Meat. That's most of you. By proxy, meat/dairy consumers contribute to hell on earth for others, not only the animals.

 

[atpollard]

It's just a bit lame to blame the truly desperate for their plight when systems fail them.

Be specific.
Who has the system failed and why are they stealing food to survive?

When you get down to the individual cases, there is always some sin involved that creates a crisis where there should be none. The addict that cannot work because they are always getting fired for being high on the job. The homeless man that chooses to live in the woods when his girlfriend nags him about always being drunk and getting a job. The teen that runs away from foster homes because “nobody is going to tell them what to do”.

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 4:28 [NKJV] 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with [his] hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

 

[tango]

Be specific.
Who has the system failed and why are they stealing food to survive?

When you get down to the individual cases, there is always some sin involved that creates a crisis where there should be none. The addict that cannot work because they are always getting fired for being high on the job. The homeless man that chooses to live in the woods when his girlfriend nags him about always being drunk and getting a job. The teen that runs away from foster homes because “nobody is going to tell them what to do”.

You're lumping in very different scenarios there. But if you want to talk specifics, how about a child who has been severely physically and sexually abused by the parents who were supposed to care for them, then shunted from foster home to foster home because of their behavioral issues caused by their past abuse, their medical issues caused by past abuse, and the fact they simply cannot bring themselves to trust anyone? And with every transition they find it harder and harder to trust anyone, the walls get built up ever stronger, which in turn makes it more and more likely that any future placements will fail. You know, they don't need to run away because within a couple of months the family will give notice that they need to be moved on anyway.

But hey, if it makes you feel better you could always just write it off as the badly damaged child being sinful by not wanting to trust adults, based on their ongoing experience that adults can't be trusted.

If you want a less dramatic example, how about the father of five who can't feed his kids because of the coronavirus and the fact the state governor decreed he is not allowed to go out and work, but couldn't get unemployment money to him to replace the income he was no longer permitted to earn? You know, the guy in line to collect free lunches from any available source because, one way or another, his kids needed to eat.

 

[tango]

Ephesians 4:28 [NKJV] 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with [his] hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

I'd refer this to the reality that when executive orders are issued that says you may not work things get a little more complex than simply quoting a Bible verse.

 

[Member4592]

I much rather doubt you would be all that happy if someone broke the commandment to not steal and stole all your stuff to feed that child. As you can see, it only looks good to you until you get to be the one who is being robbed then you will see it doesn't work quite the way you thought it would.

Now that I'm done reading your biblical lecture on moral ethics. You do realize that it's a stupid question that the OP has asked right?

I hope we can both agree that I'm not a complete a**hole. I did state in my above post that I have money. You did read that part right? So in reality. I wouldn't have to steal anything seeing as I still have my last stimulus check and paycheck sitting in my account. Now what I would do is give the child food and call the police or call DFS.

Is that a more acceptable answer to you?

I find it more close to the truth. No one wants to go to court over petty theft and pay a hefty fine if they get caught stealing. Not for anyone. Now while I don't believe in your religion. I do believe that there are consequences in real life should you play with fire and I mean that metaphorically.