Something controversial!

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, the thread title is "click bate" I admit it, but I saw that posts were down the past day or so and new threads are a way to boost posts so here is a new thread. And just to make sure that the thread can live up to its title I will go out of my way to be controversial!

Here goes!


extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

Outside of the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation.

That's what the Latin text above translates to in English The word Catholic is implied because at the time it was written there was only the Catholic Church and some far eastern groups that were in schism.


The idea was expressed in the third century AD.

The original phrase, "Salus extra ecclesiam non est" ("there is no salvation out of the Church") comes from Letter LXXII of Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258). The letter was written in reference to a particular controversy as to whether or not it was necessary to baptize applicants who had previously been baptized by heretics. In Ad Jubajanum de haereticis baptizandis, Cyprian tells Jubaianus of his conviction that baptism conferred by heretics is not valid. Firmilian (died c. 269) agreed with Cyprian reasoning that those who are outside the Church and have not the Holy Spirit cannot admit others to the Church or give what they do not possess. Cyprian was not expressing a theory on the eternal fate of all baptized and non-baptized persons.​

And according to Wikipedia the Catholic Church today explains its intended meaning thus

The 2000 declaration Dominus Iesus of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith states that "it must be firmly believed that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door." It then adds that "for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."​

I expect that Protestants would object to both the expression and the alleged explanation put forward by Wikipedia.

I am inclined to say that outside of the Catholic Church there is no fullness of the gospel. There is salvation possible for those outside of the Catholic Church but only insofar their beliefs are Catholic and their practises consistent with Catholic practises.

Those who knowingly and deliberately reject Catholic teaching are culpable for their errors and ought to expect to face judgement for them.

 

[psalms 91]

wow! Not even going to get into it. Lets just said I am offended and outraged at such a bald faced statement and if the catholic church believes that it reaffirms all I have said in the past

 

[Lamb]

It sounds like although the Catholic Church says that there is no salvation outside the Church that in a way there IS because of Christ (and grace).

 

[Albion]

It may be controversial, all right, but it doesn't to much to promote discussion, does it?

 

[psalms 91]

I just wont get into it as I respect MC and do not want to get caught up bashing

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

It may be controversial, all right, but it doesn't to much to promote discussion, does it?

Rather. Of course, I could chime in and state that the Catholic Church is not confined to the institutional structures of that entity that we call the Roman Catholic Church, but embraces all churches that accept the statements of the three Ecumenical creeds ( Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian). By that particular interpretation, it would be rather difficult to argue the point. Of course, my church body considers itself to be a legitimate part of the Church Catholic without recourse to papal authority.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the first post of this thread I did mention that the Wikipedia explanation was an allegation. Researching the matter to see if its allegation is consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches in her own official dogmatic teaching documents would be one way to discover if the allegation is correct or if it is mistaken.

Personally I like to research things but do you? It may be interesting to do the research. You can start with the Documents of the Second Vatican Council. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is also helpful for answering questions. A web search aiming for reliable Catholic sources - perhaps even a scholarly google search - could yield helpful information. But the idea behind this thread is to get some chat going. A debate is okay too, as long as we do not wander too far from the thread's topic as outlined in the first post.

Even better would be to create new threads on whatever aspects of the discussion seem like they lead to new interesting topics. That is one way to get discussions going.

If we work hard not to be mean to one another, and I am confident that we can avoid that, then the growing field of topics under active discussion may encourage some of our less active members to participate. That has to be a worthy goal, right?

God be with you all as you consider what course of action you want to take.

 

[Albion]

My "course of action" is going to be to ignore threads that are, in actuality, promos and advertisements for any denomination--regardless of which one it may be and regardless of all attempts to disguise the OP as a discussion topic.

 

[MennoSota]

The Roman church is not catholic. It is the largest intrabiblical cult within the spectrum of Christianity. It is much closer to Jehovah's Witness and Latter Day Saints than it is to biblical Christianity.

 

[Lamb]

Well, MC...you tried. Thank you.

I did more investigating though to see what other Catholic sites stated about the issue along with some of the popes too. That was earlier in the day and I didn't bookmark any of the sites to return to. It sounds to me as if things changed more about the 1990s to reflect a more openness or rather inclusiveness since that is the trend of modern society to be forced to change beliefs to include others who feel offended.

 

[Andrew]

I hope this is somehow relevant to the thread and its an interesting video I came across about a month ago.
https://youtu.be/kF8I_r9XT7A

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, MC...you tried. Thank you.

I did more investigating though to see what other Catholic sites stated about the issue along with some of the popes too. That was earlier in the day and I didn't bookmark any of the sites to return to. It sounds to me as if things changed more about the 1990s to reflect a more openness or rather inclusiveness since that is the trend of modern society to be forced to change beliefs to include others who feel offended.

Yes, we all try in our own ways. There's a degree of predictability about who offered replies and what sort of replies they offered. Nevertheless hope springs eternal in the human heart.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I hope this is somehow relevant to the thread and its an interesting video I came across about a month ago.
https://youtu.be/kF8I_r9XT7A

It's a nice, and amusing video that is accurate as far as I know. I suspect I shall not become pope ... alas

:smirk:

One thing that the process of selection makes clear is that in the Catholic Church self promotion is not very likely to end in appointment as pope, cardinal, bishop, or even priest. There's a lot of study and work to do on the way to each step in the process. It's a very human process and one that may be effective in weeding out ambitious self promoters.

 

[RichWh1]

I would have to say that the church is the whole body of believers, not just the Catholic body. Therefore all believing Christians should be included in the term church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would have to say that the church is the whole body of believers, not just the Catholic body. Therefore all believing Christians should be included in the term church.

A lot of folk say that the "catholic church" is the whole body of "believers" but then fairly quickly exclude people that they do not particularly like; for example, they may exclude Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, Orthodox, or Pentecostal Christians. But I guess there's no accounting for taste. Not that you made that sort of claim. But some here in CH - some in the past and maybe some still here - have made claims along those lines.

 

[Albion]

It all depends on what is meant by "believers, " doesn't it? I am not sure that there is any hypocrisy or inconsistency involved if a member of a cult that calls itself Christian but, like the Mormons for example, holds beliefs that are wildly at odds with Christianity is excluded.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My "course of action" is going to be to ignore threads that are, in actuality, promos and advertisements for any denomination--regardless of which one it may be and regardless of all attempts to disguise the OP as a discussion topic.

Interesting idea. Let's see if you carry out your stated course of action.

 

[Andrew]

.

 

[Albion]

Interesting idea. Let's see if you carry out your stated course of action.

Good point, MC. I meant to say posts rather than threads. After no one takes the bait and the topic has moved to something more worthwhile, its really not the same thread except perhaps for the title, is it?

 

[pinacled]

It all depends on what is meant by "believers, " doesn't it? I am not sure that there is any hypocrisy or inconsistency involved if a member of a cult that calls itself Christian but, like the Mormons for example, holds beliefs that are wildly at odds with Christianity is excluded.

How so?
Mormons believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior same as most Christians (believers).

Pretty much all denominations are similar in teachings.
The only issue I've seen is the Lack of knowledge from Leaders.