Should the death penalty be considered morally justifiable in cases of extreme crimes?

Heatman

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Currently based on my findings, 23 states including Washington D.C have abolished the death penalty entirely from being issued. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop such crimes capable attracting the death penalty being committed by people in the United States and other parts of the world.

Are you for the abolishment of the death penalty or should the death penalty be considered morally justifiable in cases of extreme crimes?
 

NewCreation435

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the death penalty is not something that stops people from committing crimes and as far as I can tell never has. I do think that it is morally justified in some cases. But, that is not for an individual to decide if that is warranted, but a jury to decide. Some people just deserve to die for their crimes.
 

VeritatisVerba

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Currently based on my findings, 23 states including Washington D.C have abolished the death penalty entirely from being issued. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop such crimes capable attracting the death penalty being committed by people in the United States and other parts of the world.

Are you for the abolishment of the death penalty or should the death penalty be considered morally justifiable in cases of extreme crimes?
The death penalty in this country is a complete joke.

Whether or not someone who has been convicted of a capital crime should be executed is not a matter of personal opinion. Justice demands that it be so. Departure from such a policy is a mockery of justice and offensive to God.
Ezekiel 13:19 And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”​

That's God Himself speaking through the profit Ezekiel, but even without the obvious biblical material, it is completely intuitive that murderers deserve death to the point that one has to be "educated" away from such a position.

However, as I said, the so called "death penalty" along with almost the whole rest of the American criminal justice system is a joke. It's an absolute mockery of justice in almost every conceivable way aside from abolishing criminal laws altogether. There isn't a single statute in our entire criminal justice system that is actually just - not a single one. People in this country have forgotten what justice looks like so long ago that real justice strikes them as being barbaric cruelty.

The irony is that it is the current system that is horrifically cruel but not to the criminals! Our system is a nice as can be to the criminals. It's the criminal's victims that our current system is cruel to. If murderers where swiftly, publicly and painfully executed upon conviction, there'd be almost no murder. Most police jurisdictions wouldn't even employ murder investigators at all because they'd be so few. And the few that did happen would freak out whole populations and make international headlines. You'd have maybe a dozen murderers executed in a year in a manner that would make delicate women faint. Sounds awful! Instead, lets house, feed and clothe the murder for the rest of his life and have 20,000 innocent people shot, stabbed, strangled, poisoned or murdered in some other grotesque way every year for decades on end! That's much more humane, right?!
 
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VeritatisVerba

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the death penalty is not something that stops people from committing crimes and as far as I can tell never has.
You might want to do some actual homework on that. Even as goofy as our death penalty is here in America, the statistics clearly show a positive deterrent effect. The less visible the execution is (i.e. to the public) and the longer it takes to actually happen, the less deterrent effect it has, but the deterrent effect is still not zero.

I do think that it is morally justified in some cases. But, that is not for an individual to decide if that is warranted, but a jury to decide. Some people just deserve to die for their crimes.
I'm very curious to know what makes you believe that it's a judgement you are qualified to make?

You say that you think it is morally justified in some cases. What makes a Christian believe that morality is a matter of personal opinion? I seriously don't get it. Your comments would make sense coming from an atheist or Buddhist or just some average unbeliever but you're a Christian. Christians don't get to decide what justice looks like. We are to discover what it does looks like and advocate for it because we desire to be righteous and to salt and light to the society in which we live. An action is either morally justified or it isn't. A punishment for a crime is either just or is is unjust. What you or I think about it doesn't come into it. If it is morally justified and someone disagrees then that calls the person's character into question, not morality.

Right?
 
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VeritatisVerba

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If you don't want to be murdered and you don't want to ever become a murderer follow these three rules....

1. Do not get drunk or high.
2. Do not hang out with people who get drunk or high.
3. Do not have sex with anyone that you aren't married to - ever.

The only notable and thankfully still quite rare exceptions are stranger murders where some lunatic murders people he doesn't know. Apart from that, if all you do are those three things, then the chances of you being directly involved in a murder, either as the victim or the perpetrator, are effectively zero.
 
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Frankj

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What makes a Christian believe that morality is a matter of personal opinion?
From my experience, mostly the teachings of the mainstream churches that don't want to offend anyone lest they lose membership or fail to attract new members (and money).

But that aside, out of curiosity I would ask what you consider morality and what the authority for it is?
 

VeritatisVerba

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But that aside, out of curiosity I would ask what you consider morality and what the authority for it is?
You've asked a very complex question that I can only answer in general terms, but I will answer it in those general terms. If you wish, we can get into the details...

Life is the standard of morality. That which is proper to life; that which promotes and protects life is the good. That which hinders and destroys life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,​
Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.​
 

Frankj

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You've asked a very complex question that I can only answer in general terms, but I will answer it in those general terms. If you wish, we can get into the details...

Life is the standard of morality. That which is proper to life; that which promotes and protects life is the good. That which hinders and destroys life is the evil.

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,​
Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.​
Interesting, but in a real world current example, how would the Christians being slaughtered en masse by the Muslim address this situation using that standard of morality?

Everything has to be more than an intellectual exercise to be of value, it has to be applied to daily life situations in the world we are living in.
 

VeritatisVerba

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Interesting, but in a real world current example, how would the Christians being slaughtered en masse by the Muslim address this situation using that standard of morality?
I don't think I understand the question. The answer seems too obvious.

Islam is a death cult and is, therefore, evil - by definition. Anyone who is surprised by their willingness to murder people on such a scale hasn't been paying attention. Anyone, including any nation, with the resources to stop it, by whatever means, would be justified in doing so. Any threatened Christian who has an opportunity to defend themselves against the death cult would be justified in doing so - by whatever means.


Please explain. I cannot understand why anyone would take what I said and then consider this scenario as one that I'd have a hard time dealing with. Did you expect that this would stump me? I genuinely don't get it.

Everything has to be more than an intellectual exercise to be of value, it has to be applied to daily life situations in the world we are living in.
Integrating one's code of morality into daily life, or the failure to do so, is an intellectual exercise. You couldn't blow your nose without the use of your mind, much less decide to maintain a life consistent with your own worldview.
 

Frankj

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I don't think I understand the question. The answer seems too obvious.

Simple enough, under your above definition and authority for morality, what do or should those Christians do?
Integrating one's code of morality into daily life, or the failure to do so, is an intellectual exercise. You couldn't blow your nose without the use of your mind, much less decide to maintain a life consistent with your own worldview.

Now this seems to be headed toward New Age and secular thinking, the idea that one's moral code is his own and not a universal absolute applied to everyone but dependent on how the individual sees it, being righteous in your own mind above being righteous before God.

This is not Christian thought, so explain further how you propose it, presumably, as founded in the Bible.
 

VeritatisVerba

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Simple enough, under your above definition and authority for morality, what do or should those Christians do?
So, I answered that. You have no response?

Also, I ask again, just what was it about the scenario you presented that made you think that I'd have any difficulty answering? I'm genuinely baffled by that. I state that life is the good and you ask me, in so many words, "Well what about mass murder?" as if I'd have a hard time declaring that to be wrong. I truly do not understand the point you were trying to make and would appreciate further explanation.

Now this seems to be headed toward New Age and secular thinking, the idea that one's moral code is his own and not a universal absolute applied to everyone but dependent on how the individual sees it, being righteous in your own mind above being righteous before God.
I invite you to make every effort to avoid attempts to read my mind. I said NOTHING that could have reasonably been interpreted in such a hideous manner.

Note the ontological certitude of my statement...

"Life is the standard of morality."

Notice that there is no caveat, nor qualification. That isn't a statement of personal opinion, it is stated as an absolute because that's what it is. It is my own code only in the sense that I not only believe it but understand it and consciously choose it as my own standard. That does not imply that it isn't an absolute. If it implies anything it implies that there are other standards (i.e. false ones) that others have adopted for themselves. Those that have will reap the consequences of their choice.

A person's mind is given to them, it's content is not. A person is free to think or to evade thinking, but he is not free to avoid the consequences of that decision. Understanding the standard of morality and developing a code of ethics is a rational process and as such must be engaged by choice. There is an objective standard of morality but it must be discovered - by choice. Understood - by choice. Accepted - by choice. And it must also be integrated into one's daily life - by choice. It is in this sense, the sense of being willingly, knowingly and intentionally chosen that one's standard of morality is "their own".

This is not Christian thought, so explain further how you propose it, presumably, as founded in the Bible.
I already did that. Did you read my post?

Life is the standard of morality. That which is proper to life; that which promotes and protects life is the good. That which hinders and destroys life is the evil.
Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,​
Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.​

Notice the direct correlation that God Himself states in the Deuteronomy passage... "life and good, death and evil,". The passage from Proverbs makes the same direct correlation and these are not the only such passages that exist (see partial list below). Indeed, it wouldn't be incorrect to say that such is the theme of the entire bible.

It is only to living things that morality pertains and God, being both Life itself and the Creator and source of all life is therefore THE standard of morality.

If this is not a Christian thought, just what would it be? Where is there ANYONE in the New Age movement that has ever said anything remotely similar?

Also, and perhaps more importantly, what would be a proper Christian thought in such a context? Just what is it that you think the bible teaches is the standard of morality if not life? Please support your answer biblically.


Genesis 2:17 – “For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Leviticus 18:5 – “If a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.”
Deuteronomy 30:15 – “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.”
Deuteronomy 30:19 – “Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.”
Deuteronomy 32:47 – “It is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days.”
Psalm 34:12 – “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good?”
Psalm 34:14 – “Depart from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.”
Psalm 36:9 – “For with You is the fountain of life; in Your light we see light.”
Psalm 119:93 – “I will never forget Your precepts, for by them You have given me life.”
Proverbs 10:16 – “The labor of the righteous leads to life, the wages of the wicked to sin.”
Proverbs 11:19 – “As righteousness leads to life, so he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.”
Proverbs 12:28 – “In the way of righteousness is life, and in its pathway there is no death.”
Proverbs 21:21 – “He who follows righteousness and mercy finds life, righteousness and honor.”
Isaiah 55:3 – “Hear, and your soul shall live.”
Ezekiel 18:21 – “If a wicked man turns from all his sins… he shall surely live; he shall not die.”
Ezekiel 18:23 – “Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die… and not that he should turn from his ways and live?”
Matthew 19:17 – “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
John 1:4 – “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
John 10:10 – “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”
John 14:6 – “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
Acts 17:28 – “For in Him we live and move and have our being.”
Romans 6:21 – “For the end of those things is death.”
Romans 6:23 – “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 8:6 – “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
Galatians 6:8 – “He who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
James 1:15 – “Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”
 
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Frankj

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Also, I ask again, just what was it about the scenario you presented that made you think that I'd have any difficulty answering?
You answered that without telling me what YOU would do if you were in their situation (which is a very real one. So what would that be in real activity, not an imaginary one.

If this is not a Christian thought, just what would it be? Where is there ANYONE in the New Age movement that has ever said anything remotely similar?

"Integrating one's code of morality into daily life, or the failure to do so, is an intellectual exercise." suggests two things, that morality is an individual thing (the word one's) and that it is also an intellectual thing, this is the "what's right for you may be wrong for me and whats wrong for you might be right for me" thought that pervades New Age thinking, something that accepts everything except the absolute morality of the bible that originates with God and not Man.

I would point out that in another discussion you call for examining every word and every syllable of a pastors speech, do you not wish to be examined by those same standards in your postings?

Aside from that, what do you know of the New Age movement and what has your involvement in it been that gives you understanding of it?
 

VeritatisVerba

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You answered that without telling me what YOU would do if you were in their situation (which is a very real one. So what would that be in real activity, not an imaginary one.
I did answer! Why do you suppose that I would do anything other than what I stated any Christian who found himself in that situation would be justified in doing?

I would defend myself by any and all means at my disposal.

"Integrating one's code of morality into daily life, or the failure to do so, is an intellectual exercise." suggests two things, that morality is an individual thing (the word one's) and that it is also an intellectual thing,
It does not imply that. It implies that INTEGRATING that code is an individual thing.

Further, there are LOTS of codes of morality, Frank! There is only one that is correct, only one that is objectively true and rational and that is consistent with reality (same thing) but that doesn't mean that it's the only code that exists.

this is the "what's right for you may be wrong for me and whats wrong for you might be right for me" thought that pervades New Age thinking,
And which is literal stupidity and unrelated to anything I've said or that could even be reasonably inferred by anything I've said.

something that accepts everything except the absolute morality of the bible that originates with God and not Man.
Not one single syllable of anything I've stated contradicts a single sentence of the bible.

I would point out that in another discussion you call for examining every word and every syllable of a pastors speech, do you not wish to be examined by those same standards in your postings?
I invite it but only if done rationally! I do NOT invite nor will I tolerate you or anyone else pretending that they've read my mind and somehow know what I meant even when its in direct contradiction to the words I actually wrote. This is particularly true when you or anyone else wants to be stubborn in their accusations even after the clearest of explanations in response to your initial reaction to my statements.

Just how many times will I have to state it to everyone's hearing but your own that my comments cannot be reasonably associated with anything New Age. That's complete nonsense!

Aside from that, what do you know of the New Age movement and what has your involvement in it been that gives you understanding of it?
I will not answer any more of your questions until you acknowledge that my position is NOT New Age in nature.

In fact, if you persist along these lines for even one single more post or if you fail to acknowledge it based on what I've clearly laid out in the last few posts, I'll figure out how the ignore feature works on this site and you'll be the first person on my ignore list.

If you wish to have a respectful and substantive discussion it requires both respect and responsiveness. If you want to be obtuse, I'm not interested.

There's your choice. Make it.
 

Frankj

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In fact, if you persist along these lines for even one single more post or if you fail to acknowledge it based on what I've clearly laid out in the last few posts, I'll figure out how the ignore feature works on this site and you'll be the first person on my ignore list.
You seem to be unable to discuss your positions without condemning any questioning of it.

Why do you do it this way when it just sets your statements up to be rejected instead of considered and discussed?

FWIW, I've led a very different and very prodigal life than most which gives me many insights into the nature of various 'spiritual' thinking and where it originates that others might not have. Christian morality is absolute, non negotiable, and very few of us actually manage to practice it. (And, back to the original subject, it does indicate the death penalty for specific crimes).
 

VeritatisVerba

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You seem to be unable to discuss your positions without condemning any questioning of it.
Except that I responded directly and totally without any condemnation until AFTER you got stubborn, unresponsive and accusatory.

Why do you do it this way when it just sets your statements up to be rejected instead of considered and discussed?
I directly answered your questions and you have yet to respond to a single one of mine. Instead you find ways to twist my words into New Ageism of all the stupid things!

Was that somehow not supposed to be offensive?

Note, by the way, that I did not take offense until AFTER I very clearly explained myself, expressed total disbelief in how anyone could possibly get anything related to New Ageism from what I said and you then doubling down on the accusation.

FWIW, I've led a very different and very prodigal life than most which gives me many insights into the nature of various 'spiritual' thinking and where it originates that others might not have.
I couldn't really care less about your back ground. If you think it's given you the ability to tell me that I'm touting New Age ideologies then you're worse than unintuitive, you're a prideful hypocrite.


Christian morality is absolute, non negotiable, and very few of us actually manage to practice it.
That's my line!

(And, back to the original subject, it does indicate the death penalty for specific crimes).
Of course it does. Where did I ever suggest otherwise? Please, pull out all of your insightful skill at reading the "real truth" into what everyone actually means contrary to what they've said and tell me where anything I've said suggests anything other than that murder (and adultery, kidnapping, homosexuality, and a handful of other criminal behaviors) should be considered a capital crime.

You won't even try! And if you do, I won't read it. You've proven that you aren't interesting in discussing anything with any substance. In short you've shown yourself to be a waste of time.

Good bye.
 

VeritatisVerba

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Currently based on my findings, 23 states including Washington D.C have abolished the death penalty entirely from being issued. Unfortunately, this doesn't stop such crimes capable attracting the death penalty being committed by people in the United States and other parts of the world.

Are you for the abolishment of the death penalty or should the death penalty be considered morally justifiable in cases of extreme crimes?
Getting this thread back on track, minus the dishonest nonsense of those who want to play stupid games....


The death penalty in this country is a complete joke.

Whether or not someone who has been convicted of a capital crime should be executed is not a matter of personal opinion. Justice demands that it be so. Departure from such a policy is a mockery of justice and offensive to God.


Ezekiel 13:19 And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”

That's God Himself speaking through the profit Ezekiel, but even without the obvious biblical material, it is completely intuitive that murderers deserve death to the point that one has to be "educated" away from such a position.

However, as I said, the so called "death penalty" along with almost the whole rest of the American criminal justice system is a joke. It's an absolute mockery of justice in almost every conceivable way aside from abolishing criminal laws altogether. There isn't a single statute in our entire criminal justice system that is actually just - not a single one. People in this country have forgotten what justice looks like so long ago that real justice strikes them as being barbaric cruelty.

The irony is that it is the current system that is horrifically cruel but not to the criminals! Our system is a nice as can be to the criminals. It's the criminal's victims that our current system is cruel to. If murderers where swiftly, publicly and painfully executed upon conviction, there'd be almost no murder. Most police jurisdictions wouldn't even employ murder investigators at all because they'd be so few. And the few that did happen would freak out whole populations and make international headlines. You'd have maybe a dozen murderers executed in a year in a manner that would make delicate women faint. Sounds awful! Instead, lets house, feed and clothe the murder for the rest of his life and have 20,000 innocent people shot, stabbed, strangled, poisoned or murdered in some other grotesque way every year for decades on end! That's much more humane, right?!
 

Frankj

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Except that I responded directly and totally without any condemnation until AFTER you got stubborn, unresponsive and accusatory.


I directly answered your questions and you have yet to respond to a single one of mine. Instead you find ways to twist my words into New Ageism of all the stupid things!

Was that somehow not supposed to be offensive?

Note, by the way, that I did not take offense until AFTER I very clearly explained myself, expressed total disbelief in how anyone could possibly get anything related to New Ageism from what I said and you then doubling down on the accusation.


I couldn't really care less about your back ground. If you think it's given you the ability to tell me that I'm touting New Age ideologies then you're worse than unintuitive, you're a prideful hypocrite.



That's my line!


Of course it does. Where did I ever suggest otherwise? Please, pull out all of your insightful skill at reading the "real truth" into what everyone actually means contrary to what they've said and tell me where anything I've said suggests anything other than that murder (and adultery, kidnapping, homosexuality, and a handful of other criminal behaviors) should be considered a capital crime.

You won't even try! And if you do, I won't read it. You've proven that you aren't interesting in discussing anything with any substance. In short you've shown yourself to be a waste of time.

Good bye.
So, if I' understand your position correctly, you're right just because you are right and myself and anyone that questions that for any reason is wrong just because you're right and should not be questioned?

That's the way it is coming through to me, if that isn't what you intended to present perhaps you could consider stating it differently.

At least if you consider your thinking something that others should consider, as I am trying to do.
 

VeritatisVerba

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So, if I' understand your position correctly
You are not understanding it correctly. In fact, you seem to be trying very hard to NOT understand it.

....you're right just because you are right and myself and anyone that questions that for any reason is wrong just because you're right and should not be questioned?
Stupidity! I've said no such thing and nothing I have said on this forum or anywhere else could be reasonably interpreted in this manner.

That's the way it is coming through to me, if that isn't what you intended to present perhaps you could consider stating it differently.

At least if you consider your thinking something that others should consider, as I am trying to do.
Listen Frank, I've been doing this a very long time and I have, even if I do say so myself, gotten quite good at articulating my beliefs in a clear and concise manner. I therefore have a very difficult time believing that you are trying all that hard to understand my comments. There simply isn't anything to misunderstand. That is, so long as you do not attempt to read things into what I say. All it takes to understand me is to read the words I've typed. I do not play silly word games. I do not hide what I mean behind double meanings and veiled language. I say what I mean - period. I am not afraid to speak in general terms and I do not feel the need to explain every point I make in detail but I do not ever say one thing and mean another.

If you read something I've said and think it implies something then ask about it. If I then explain that your suggested implication has nothing to do with what I've said or what I believe, and explain why then don't double down and insist that because you think you've detected it, it must be the case. That's disrespectful and dishonest. It just means that you're looking for an excuse to reject what I've said by applying a meaning to it of your own.

I'm new here and so you do not know me at all. It is for that reason and that reason alone that you aren't already on my ignore list. I DO NOT tolerate intellectual dishonesty. If you want to remain off of my ignore list, then I'll not read another syllable of this New Age accusation, which I've very clearly explained. Not that any such explanation was really ever necessary in the first place. You simply had no grounds whatsoever to even bring it up. The fact that you read such completely disconnected things into what other people say, tells me that it is likely you who has hidden agendas and says things that veil what you actually mean and so instinctively assume that everyone else does it to. I could be wrong on that and hope that I am, but I will be watching.

Now, do you wish to continue with a substantive discussion based on what I've actually said or not?
 
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