Salvation not based on our merit

[mailmandan]

Strange that different people can read the same words and see them as saying different things.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Frankj]

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is saying the words but not saying what they mean, one man will read them and say one thing from his understanding and another read them the same way and understand them to being saying something different.

 

[mailmandan]

This is saying the words but not saying what they mean, one man will read them and say one thing from his understanding and another read them the same way and understand them to being saying something different.

Even though not everyone will agree on everything, those verses get to the heart of the reason why certain people understand correctly and others do not understand, particularly when it comes to essential Christian doctrine where our salvation depends on it.

 

[Lamb]

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Right, so it's saying that natural man cannot make a decision to believe in God for salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Strange that different people can read the same words and see them as saying different things.

Yep thats the way it goes at times

 

[Frankj]

Even though not everyone will agree on everything, those verses get to the heart of the reason why certain people understand correctly and others do not understand, particularly when it comes to essential Christian doctrine where our salvation depends on it.

Here's where the difficulty comes in, who defines 'correctly' and how does one know that he is the one that has done so?

From what I see there are many, many different understandings expressed of the same scripture by different people that seem to conflict with, or even deny, each other and divide the church into various factions that have little in common among themselves or even each other?

If you ask a Catholic you would be told it's the Pope or maybe some statue that represents someone who died and then had man elevate him or her to the status of saint, another might say 'the pastor of my church and anyone who doesn't believe in his preaching will go to hell" (I've seen this one or some variant of it a lot), yet another will say someone that constantly quotes scripture to justify everything he does no matter how it might seem to others, another will say only those who constantly study the scripture cab be considered correct in spite of obvious differences between them and others who do the same, yet another will say something like 'No, only those who know the original languages of the scripture and study the original texts can have a true understanding and I do this so you have to agree with me to be correct' and other will say the Holy Spirit enlightens them and you only know that you are listening to the true Holy Spirit if you do things like babbling incoherently so that no one can know what you are saying, throw each other in the air, throw chairs at each other, throw each other through windows and such, .........

So how do you know correctness of understanding?

Before answering meditate a while on Jesus' teaching of the wide and narrow road and the significance of that in your life and the teachings of your Church.

 

[brightfame52]

Really we can never at all do anything on our merit especially trying to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
As only accepting Christ and forgiveness of sins that we can enter God's kingdom.
John 3:16-17 makes it very clear!

accepting Christ becomes a meritorious act of ma if you had to DO THAT before God saved you. Thats a wage being paid for a mans action

 

[Frankj]

Right, so it's saying that natural man cannot make a decision to believe in God for salvation.

For clarity, what are you calling natural man?

 

[mailmandan]

Here's where the difficulty comes in, who defines 'correctly' and how does one know that he is the one that has done so?

From what I see there are many, many different understandings expressed of the same scripture by different people that seem to conflict with, or even deny, each other and divide the church into various factions that have little in common among themselves or even each other?

If you ask a Catholic you would be told it's the Pope or maybe some statue that represents someone who died and then had man elevate him or her to the status of saint, another might say 'the pastor of my church and anyone who doesn't believe in his preaching will go to hell" (I've seen this one or some variant of it a lot), yet another will say someone that constantly quotes scripture to justify everything he does no matter how it might seem to others, another will say only those who constantly study the scripture cab be considered correct in spite of obvious differences between them and others who do the same, yet another will say something like 'No, only those who know the original languages of the scripture and study the original texts can have a true understanding and I do this so you have to agree with me to be correct' and other will say the Holy Spirit enlightens them and you only know that you are listening to the true Holy Spirit if you do things like babbling incoherently so that no one can know what you are saying, throw each other in the air, throw chairs at each other, throw each other through windows and such, .........

So how do you know correctness of understanding?

Before answering meditate a while on Jesus' teaching of the wide and narrow road and the significance of that in your life and the teachings of your Church.

Anyone can twist the scriptures to try and make them fit their pet doctrines. The road that leads to life is narrow and few find it because Jesus Christ is the only way (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6) and few by faith are trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Sadly, many are trusting in their works for salvation (Romans 11:6; 2 Timothy 1:9) and not in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Lamb]

For clarity, what are you calling natural man?

Unregenerate...nonbeliever...unsaved

 

[Frankj]

Unregenerate...nonbeliever...unsaved

Is this to say, then, that we have no role in our salvation and belief in Jesus as our savior but that it is all decided in some realm that does not rely on our own choices and decisions in life?

That would not be in agreement with those such as myself that believe that our lives are controlled by our decisions, that decisions have consequences and those consequences are the story of our lives and is of our own creation.

 

[Frankj]

Anyone can twist the scriptures to try and make them fit their pet doctrines. The road that leads to life is narrow and few find it because Jesus Christ is the only way (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6) and few by faith are trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Sadly, many are trusting in their works for salvation (Romans 11:6; 2 Timothy 1:9) and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Yet we have others here who say something different about what it means, how do I know which is right and which is not?

 

[Lamb]

Is this to say, then, that we have no role in our salvation and belief in Jesus as our savior but that it is all decided in some realm that does not rely on our own choices and decisions in life?

That would not be in agreement with those such as myself that believe that our lives are controlled by our decisions, that decisions have consequences and those consequences are the story of our lives and is of our own creation.

Salvation is 100% God's work. Nothing from us. That's why HE is the Savior and we are not co-Saviors.

We can decide where we want to work, who we want to be friends with, etc...but we cannot choose to change ourselves from the unsaved to the saved. That's God's role. Once He gives us that gift of faith to believe, then we cooperate with Him, but it does NOT contribute to our salvation.

 

[Frankj]

Salvation is 100% God's work. Nothing from us. That's why HE is the Savior and we are not co-Saviors.

We can decide where we want to work, who we want to be friends with, etc...but we cannot choose to change ourselves from the unsaved to the saved. That's God's role. Once He gives us that gift of faith to believe, then we cooperate with Him, but it does NOT contribute to our salvation.

That sort of puts evangelism in the realm of uselessness, doesn't it?

 

[Lamb]

That sort of puts evangelism in the realm of uselessness, doesn't it?

Not at all. Jesus told the disciples HOW to go out and make disciples, they were to go out and preach the Gospel (teach) and baptize. The Gospel is God's word that is alive and active and effects what it says, that Jesus died on the cross and our sins are forgiven.

 

[Frankj]

Not at all. Jesus told the disciples HOW to go out and make disciples, they were to go out and preach the Gospel (teach) and baptize. The Gospel is God's word that is alive and active and effects what it says, that Jesus died on the cross and our sins are forgiven.

Doesn't that sort of lead into the idea that both the preaching of the word is necessary as well as those who hear it deciding to believe in it and follow Jesus being personal decision, making their salvation dependent on their decision about it?

 

[Lamb]

Doesn't that sort of lead into the idea that both the preaching of the word is necessary as well as those who hear it deciding to believe in it and follow Jesus being personal decision, making their salvation dependent on their decision about it?

No. Faith clings to the truth and faith is a gift from God, and we receive faith when the Gospel is received by the preaching of the word. It's ALL God's work within us. He chose to use men to go out and preach the Gospel and the Gospel has an effect because God's word is alive and active.

Once faith is given, the only choice is to reject that truth that faith already knows...that Jesus is Savior and our sins are forgiven at the cross.

 

[mailmandan]

Yet we have others here who say something different about what it means, how do I know which is right and which is not?

That brings us back to 1 Corinthians 2:11-14.

 

[Frankj]

No. Faith clings to the truth and faith is a gift from God, and we receive faith when the Gospel is received by the preaching of the word. It's ALL God's work within us. He chose to use men to go out and preach the Gospel and the Gospel has an effect because God's word is alive and active.

Once faith is given, the only choice is to reject that truth that faith already knows...that Jesus is Savior and our sins are forgiven at the cross.

Then is that meaning that, essentially, faith is forced on you and you have the choice to leave it?

A choice, by nature, requires more than one option when it is made.

As the philosopher Yogi Berra once brilliantly observed, when you come to a fork in the road take it.

 

[Frankj]

That brings us back to 1 Corinthians 2:11-14.

And still, that leaves two or more people reading the same words and having different and sometimes conflicting understandings give by the spirit they believe directs them.

Perhaps at this point we should try to factor in genesis 1:26-27. I light of previous discussion, what would you see as the implication(s) of this?