Romans 11:6

[TurtleHare]

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. That's what Romans 11:6 writes and when you take it side by side with we are saved by grace through faith you cannot add your works in there alongside it because it annuls the grace part if it's your works.

 

[Lamb]

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. That's what Romans 11:6 writes and when you take it side by side with we are saved by grace through faith you cannot add your works in there alongside it because it annuls the grace part if it's your works.

Trying to work your way to heaven is not grace.

 

[NewCreation435]

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. That's what Romans 11:6 writes and when you take it side by side with we are saved by grace through faith you cannot add your works in there alongside it because it annuls the grace part if it's your works.

I think if we understood how utterly depraved the human heart is we would realize that our situation is completely hopeless without the grace of God. Not only is it impossible to save yourself, but nothing you do adds value to your salvation. It is completely impossible for a dead person to save themselves

 

[Arsenios]

Heb 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others were tortured,
not accepting deliverance;
that they might obtain a better resurrection:

How do you understand the above if not the decision of the OT Saint not accepting deliverance from torture bu embracing death, in order to obtain a better resurrection? Is that God's action? Or is it the Saint's?

These were not men merely of the Law, but of great faith, as Paul affirms...

Yet they were not perfected in the great faith that they exercised...

But we are, are we not?

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Heb 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others were tortured,
not accepting deliverance;
that they might obtain a better resurrection:

How do you understand the above if not the decision of the OT Saint not accepting deliverance from torture bu embracing death, in order to obtain a better resurrection? Is that God's action? Or is it the Saint's?

These were not men merely of the Law, but of great faith, as Paul affirms...

Yet they were not perfected in the great faith that they exercised...

But we are, are we not?

Arsenios

Hebrews 11 explains that it is a "living faith". That means a faith that does things. Not that our doing something will earn us salvation. That's the role that belongs to the Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. That's what Romans 11:6 writes and when you take it side by side with we are saved by grace through faith you cannot add your works in there alongside it because it annuls the grace part if it's your works.

Romans 11:1 And so I ask: Has God rejected his people? Of course not! I, myself, am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 No, God has not rejected the people he knew beforehand. Don’t you know what the Scripture says of Elijah, when he was accusing Israel before God? 3 He said: “Lord, they have killed your prophets, destroyed your altars, and I alone remain; and now they want to kill me.” 4 What was God’s answer? “I kept for myself seven thousand who did not worship Baal.” 5 In the same way, now, there is a remnant in Israel, those who were chosen, by grace. 6 It is said: by grace, not because of what they did. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

The passage above is about a remnant in the nation of Israel that is like the seven thousand remnant in Israel in Elijah's time and their choosing by God which was by grace and not by works. God did not choose the remnant of Israel because they did something that made the choice a necessity or a payment for work done. Nevertheless the seven thousand "did not worship Baal". The remnant in saint Paul's time are chosen by grace and not because of works that they did.

Ephesians 2:7-10: 7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

Salvation is God grace gift which is given through faith for the purpose of making a people who devote themselves to doing the good works that God prepared for them. There's no contradiction between the two passages. Grace does not preclude works it simply is not given on the basis of works but it is evident that grace leads to good works because that is its purpose; specifically, God has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation is God grace gift which is given through faith for the purpose of making a people who devote themselves to doing the good works that God prepared for them. There's no contradiction between the two passages. Grace does not preclude works it simply is not given on the basis of works but it is evident that grace leads to good works because that is its purpose; specifically, God has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

I agree, as does the book of James.

 

[atpollard]

Heb 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others were tortured,
not accepting deliverance;
that they might obtain a better resurrection:

How do you understand the above if not the decision of the OT Saint not accepting deliverance from torture bu embracing death, in order to obtain a better resurrection? Is that God's action? Or is it the Saint's?

God’s action.
See it at work here:

Acts 7:54-60 NIV
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

These were not men merely of the Law, but of great faith, as Paul affirms...
Yet they were not perfected in the great faith that they exercised...
But we are, are we not?

Arsenios

No. Men are never perfected, we are constantly being “made perfect” and being conformed to the image of our Christ. God alone is perfect and our “perfection” is found in Christ.

[Heb 2:10 NIV] 10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
[Heb 5:9 NIV] 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
[Heb 7:19, 28 NIV] 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. ... 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
[Heb 10:14 NIV] 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.


The good works are fruit of the change wrought within. Faith that does not yield good works is a dead faith, but works intended to yield faith is legalism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God’s action.
See it at work here:

Acts 7:54-60 NIV
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.



No. Men are never perfected, we are constantly being “made perfect” and being conformed to the image of our Christ.

Aren't "men" made perfect in Christ when they are glorified with Christ? I am fairly sure that they are but maybe you have some other view.

God alone is perfect and our “perfection” is found in Christ.

[Heb 2:10 NIV] 10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
[Heb 5:9 NIV] 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
[Heb 7:19, 28 NIV] 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. ... 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
[Heb 10:14 NIV] 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.


The good works are fruit of the change wrought within. Faith that does not yield good works is a dead faith, but works intended to yield faith is legalism.

 

[atpollard]

Aren't "men" made perfect in Christ when they are glorified with Christ? I am fairly sure that they are but maybe you have some other view.

We ARE PERFECT in Christ.
We WILL BE PERFECT when glorified (after the second coming).

While we live on this earth, personal perfection remains an elusive goal.

 

[MennoSota]

Romans 11:1 And so I ask: Has God rejected his people? Of course not! I, myself, am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 No, God has not rejected the people he knew beforehand. Don’t you know what the Scripture says of Elijah, when he was accusing Israel before God? 3 He said: “Lord, they have killed your prophets, destroyed your altars, and I alone remain; and now they want to kill me.” 4 What was God’s answer? “I kept for myself seven thousand who did not worship Baal.” 5 In the same way, now, there is a remnant in Israel, those who were chosen, by grace. 6 It is said: by grace, not because of what they did. Otherwise, grace would not be grace.

The passage above is about a remnant in the nation of Israel that is like the seven thousand remnant in Israel in Elijah's time and their choosing by God which was by grace and not by works. God did not choose the remnant of Israel because they did something that made the choice a necessity or a payment for work done. Nevertheless the seven thousand "did not worship Baal". The remnant in saint Paul's time are chosen by grace and not because of works that they did.

Ephesians 2:7-10: 7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

Salvation is God grace gift which is given through faith for the purpose of making a people who devote themselves to doing the good works that God prepared for them. There's no contradiction between the two passages. Grace does not preclude works it simply is not given on the basis of works but it is evident that grace leads to good works because that is its purpose; specifically, God has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

Good works are the effect of the cause.
The cause is two fold:
1) Unmerited favor (grace) given by God
2) Faith, given as an unmerited gift by God.
The effect is: Good works

 

[Arsenios]

We ARE PERFECT in Christ.

Menno will agree with me when I tell you that I AM NOT PERFECT in Christ...

We WILL BE PERFECT when glorified (after the second coming).

This flies in the face of Scripture where Paul writes:

"These also He HATH Glorified..."

Clearly prior to the Second Coming...

While we live on this earth, personal perfection remains an elusive goal.

"For narrow the Gate and obstructed the Way...
Which leadeth unto Salvation...
And few are they who have found it..."

Elusive? Yes...

Unattained? No...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Aren't "men" made perfect in Christ when they are glorified with Christ?

They are, and yes, they do exist...
But one must admit...
They are not easily found...

I have encountered a few...
They are not all men...

Arsenios

 

[TurtleHare]

Men are made perfect by grace through faith and that means when they believe in Jesus they are made perfect according to that faith and not by works cuz that would be boasting and we hear too much of that, don't we?