Rock control

[Andrew]

Did God blame the rock or Cain for the killing of his brother Abel?


Note: Indeed you have noticed a potential political argument I've set up on purpose because I feel this is not just a conservative view point but even more so a Christian view likewise..

 

[Michael]

Issues of the heart

Did God blame the rock or Cain for the killing of his brother Abel?


Note: Indeed you have noticed a potential political argument I've set up on purpose because I feel this is not just a conservative view point but even more so a Christian view likewise..

It is always the heart of man which is to blame. And God knows what is in our heart only by what we DO. When we murder or blaspheme or engage in sexual activity out of wedlock, or steal or lust or lie - especially if we call ourselves by His Name - we prove to God what is really in our hearts. For God sees ALL we do. As Jesus said - "those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man." - Matt 15:18-20

The horrible unscriptural teaching that God only sees us through Christ has left many a professing believer to remain in a state of defilement that will render them "unworthy" in that Day to receive any inheritance in the Kingdom.

Those who believe such would be forced to allow one like Cain into 'heaven' if He had 'confessed Christ' even though he may murder someone or commit adultery.

Man, we are in such desperate need of a Back-to-the-Bible Revival in our churches today.

 

[Andrew]

It is always the heart of man which is to blame. And God knows what is in our heart only by what we DO. When we murder or blaspheme or engage in sexual activity out of wedlock, or steal or lust or lie - especially if we call ourselves by His Name - we prove to God what is really in our hearts. For God sees ALL we do. As Jesus said - "those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man." - Matt 15:18-20

The horrible unscriptural teaching that God only sees us through Christ has left many a professing believer to remain in a state of defilement that will render them "unworthy" in that Day to receive any inheritance in the Kingdom.

Those who believe such would be forced to allow one like Cain into 'heaven' if He had 'confessed Christ' even though he may murder someone or commit adultery.

Man, we are in such desperate need of a Back-to-the-Bible Revival in our churches today.

I agree but I don't believe anyone here has ever suggested that a murderer can just waltz into Heaven without repentance, we all hold true to repentance here but many of us disagree on where this opportunity for repentance comes from, some say through Faith and some say through works by faith, it's all the same to me but definitely no one here insists that a destructive wicked lifestyle will get you into Heaven regardless of if you believe Jesus is savior or not, even the devils believe and tremble with fear

 

[Michael]

I agree but I don't believe anyone here has ever suggested that a murderer can just waltz into Heaven without repentance, we all hold true to repentance here but many of us disagree on where this opportunity for repentance comes from, some say through Faith and some say through works by faith, it's all the same to me but definitely no one here insists that a destructive wicked lifestyle will get you into Heaven regardless of if you believe Jesus is savior or not, even the devils believe and tremble with fear

But here is the thing Andrew... a few on here absolutely insist that once a person is "saved" God no longer sees their sin, and nothing they do (or don't do) can separate them from the love of God.

Ok... so if someone commit's "murder" then that could be a reason once doesn't get to "waltz into heaven without repenting." What about "anger" or "gossip" or "contention"? Jesus classifies all these the same. And again, a few on here have screamed continually that "repentance" has nothing to do with our "salvation." (Of course the Bible says it does, but I say that to make a point.) Where do we draw the line? If we say that "saved" people cannot murder and still be okay in God's eyes, can we say that someone who "hates" is ok in His sight if they have been "saved"?
You see the quandary we have here... where does God draw the line between what He can see in our behavior and what some claim He sees only 'through Christ'?

If God will blame the murderer for killing rather than the weapon that he used, will God not blame one who harbors unforgiveness in their heart but shift the blame elsewhere? Of course not. "The soul who sins shall die." (Eze 18:4), and for those who insist that is OT and God changed His mind, we have Paul's warning to the 'believers' - "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Rom 6:16), and it is to professing Christians he warns - "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) This Truth is applicable more to church-goers than to those in the world.

Don't we know that if we don't forgive others, God WILL NOT forgive us? And if He did once forgive us, and then we don't walk in humility and obedience, God will take away His forgiveness. (Matt 18:32-35, Matt 6:14-15).
Surely, if we murder our brother as Cain did Abel, we are in danger before the Lord. Although, yes, God can forgive such a one if he truly repents. He will pay his debt to society, and may suffer loss in the Kingdom, but there can be forgiveness.
So too... If we slay our brother with just our words and hold a grudge against him God will not forgive us. Period. there is no way to twist this Truth Jesus taught. Without True Biblical Repentance (as some here refuse to believe is necessary) God won't extend forgiveness to us, and we absolutely will forfeit our inheritance in the Kingdom. The entire New Testament confirms this.

As carnal thinking people, we will try anything to shift the blame to another or even an object, as long as we come out ok in the end. The rock, the gun, the President, my ethnicity, or most often - someone else's fault. We saw this in the very beginning. Eve blamed the serpent. Adam blamed Eve, then even blamed God. But God held them responsible, as He most definitely will hold us accountable for our sins in that Day that we have not "striven against even to the shedding of our own blood."

"Circumcise yourselves to the Lord; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.” - Jer 4:4

Our God hasn't changed. If He ever does... we're all sunk. He required repentance and obedience from His people back then, and He requires repentance and obedience from us now.
When the Lord judges us He will not look at others, or circumstances we faced or what tools were available to us... He will look at only one thing - were we faithful and obedient regardless of our situation or what others said or did to us.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." - 2Cor 5:10-11a

Amen.

 

[Josiah]

It is always the heart of man which is to blame.

Correct. A point folks don't like to acknowledge (especially that EVERYONE has a "heart problem"). IF we really want to legislate this, we'd need to outlaw sin (good luck with that).


Of course, limiting opportunity and perhaps even temptation might minimize the OUTWARD EXPRESSION (the acting on) of sin, and I think that's the objective of gun control. But the effectiveness of this is limited, and doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is in the heart.

For God sees ALL we do. As Jesus said - "those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man." - Matt 15:18-20

God KNOWS what's in our hearts.... whether it is outwardly expressed or not. God doens't have to SEE it acted out (we do, God doesn't). Our sinful heart is real - whether it reveals itself in acts or not. See Matthew 5:21-22 and 1 John 3:15 for examples.




- Josiah




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[Josiah]

But here is the thing Andrew... a few on here absolutely insist that once a person is "saved" God no longer sees their sin, and nothing they do (or don't do) can separate them from the love of God.

Michael,

This is really off-topic. I encourage you to begin a separate thread if you want to explore this.

I agree with this. In Christ, there is NO condemnation.... in Christ, we are covered by grace/mercy/forgiveness. Gospel is true.....

Now, BE CAREFUL not to mix-up Law and Gospel, destroying both (and Christianity) in the process!!!!!



Perhaps this might help (and then perhaps we can get back to the issue of the thread and end the hijack?): Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran bishop during the Nazi years, discussed your concern at length in one of the most landmark and famous Christian books of the 20th Century, "The Cost of Discipleship". I'm paraphrasing but here's an example he gives: Bob commits some sin (he acts out on something evil in his heart). Then he repents in faith in Christ. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, Bob commits the same sin. And repents. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, Bob commits the same sin. And repents. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, same thing - and now he KNOWS he'll keep doing it... but each day he repents. Does God forgive him? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. God REQUIRES us to forgive 7 times 70 (always - FOREVER - with no end), does He do less than He demands of we fallen mortals? Of course not! Bob repeats this..... for ten zillion days. Does God forgive him? Of course, He cannot do otherwise, He cannot go back on His promises. He cannot be unfaithful. He cannot do less than He requires of us. He cannot cancel the Gospel. But of course, Bob is breaking God's heart - but He cannot change it. BUT HERE"S THE THING..... Bob is not changing God by this game, but he IS changing himself!!! Slowly, he is wrecking his faith..... slowly he is abandoning any sense of Jesus as Savior and Jesus is just becoming an excuse for expressing his sinful hearts by this action.... and the day comes when he is NOT repenting (even if he chants the words) and is NOT coming in faith (even if he chants the word "Jesus"); the day comes when he has damaged his faith SO much that it's gone..... he does that sin and does NOT repent in faith. What then? WHAT THEN? God MAY still forgive (Jesus forgave His executioners even though none of them repented or had faith) but He has no such promise, to NOT do so is NOT being unfaithful... it may be true that Bob is not forgiven or even saved anymore. But is this the fault of God? No. Is this because the Gospel is not true? No. Is this because God went back on His command and promise to ALWAYS forgive, "7 times 70?" No. It's because Bob wrecked his faith by a game he persistently played.




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[Michael]

Michael,

This is really off-topic. I encourage you to begin a separate thread if you want to explore this.

I agree with this. In Christ, there is NO condemnation.... in Christ, we are covered by grace/mercy/forgiveness. Gospel is true.....

Now, BE CAREFUL not to mix-up Law and Gospel, destroying both (and Christianity) in the process!!!!!



Perhaps this might help (and then perhaps we can get back to the issue of the thread and end the hijack?): Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran bishop during the Nazi years, discussed your concern at length in one of the most landmark and famous Christian books of the 20th Century, "The Cost of Discipleship". I'm paraphrasing but here's an example he gives: Bob commits some sin (he acts out on something evil in his heart). Then he repents in faith in Christ. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, Bob commits the same sin. And repents. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, Bob commits the same sin. And repents. Is he forgiven? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. The next day, same thing - and now he KNOWS he'll keep doing it... but each day he repents. Does God forgive him? Of course, God PROMISES it, and God cannot go back on His promises, God cannot be unfaithful, the Gospel is ALWAYS true. God REQUIRES us to forgive 7 times 70 (always - FOREVER - with no end), does He do less than He demands of we fallen mortals? Of course not! Bob repeats this..... for ten zillion days. Does God forgive him? Of course, He cannot do otherwise, He cannot go back on His promises. He cannot be unfaithful. He cannot do less than He requires of us. He cannot cancel the Gospel. But of course, Bob is breaking God's heart - but He cannot change it. BUT HERE"S THE THING..... Bob is not changing God by this game, but he IS changing himself!!! Slowly, he is wrecking his faith..... slowly he is abandoning any sense of Jesus as Savior and Jesus is just becoming an excuse for expressing his sinful hearts by this action.... and the day comes when he is NOT repenting (even if he chants the words) and is NOT coming in faith (even if he chants the word "Jesus"); the day comes when he has damaged his faith SO much that it's gone..... he does that sin and does NOT repent in faith. What then? WHAT THEN? God MAY still forgive (Jesus forgave His executioners even though none of them repented or had faith) but He has no such promise, to NOT do so is NOT being unfaithful... it may be true that Bob is not forgiven or even saved anymore. But is this the fault of God? No. Is this because the Gospel is not true? No. Is this because God went back on His command and promise to ALWAYS forgive, "7 times 70?" No. It's because Bob wrecked his faith by a game he persistently played.
.

I agree with brother Bonhoeffer. A worn copy of "Cost of Discipleship" is among my favorite books.

We'll address the Law elsewhere, as I know that so many misunderstand that we are still under, and always will be subject to, Law (The Law of the Spirit of Life). The Law and the Gospel go hand-in-hand. Don't mistake the covenantal Law of Moses for God's Eternal Moral Law. So many do, and it has contributed to the mess our churches are in today.

And I'll leave it up to Andrew, but I believe what I've shared is precisely ON-TOPIC. For what seems to keep popping up in various threads is a belief that God will never hold a 'professing Christian' accountable for their behavior, and the blame will be laid elsewhere, for God will see only the "rock" and not the one who cast it. It always come down to that, even in society today... we must blame to "gun" for all those dead people, not the poor individual who was misunderstood or bullied. The shooter was a 'product of society' and the real blame lies with the guns and those who have them. That's the garbage you'll hear from the progressive Left. And that thinking has crept into the churches as well - that God knows we're a rotten mess, a vile filthy sinner, and He won't hold us accountable for what we do, He'll lay the blame elsewhere and just love us as we are. This is totally antichrist, and yet so many fall for such heresy.