Regeneration

[MoreCoffee]

I have pointed out to MC that Hitler was baptised the same year is was born... so he had the Holy Spirit did he?

Yes, he did, when he was an infant. And if his parents and guardians in Christ taught him to believe the gospel and to repent of wrongs done then he had faith and works too. He was saved as long as he remained in Christ that is to say as long as he remained in the body of Christ which is the Church and when he departed from the Church and rejected her teaching embracing "blood and soil" religion, a form a paganism, he rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and became an apostate. As an apostate he did very wicked things and is likely not saved and may never be saved. That is the price of his wickedness if it was unrepented. Read, if you have the time what the holy scriptures say in this passage:

(Hebrews 6:1-8) [1] Therefore, interrupting an explanation of the basics of Christ, let us consider what is more advanced, not presenting again the fundamentals of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] of the doctrine of baptism, and also of the imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. [3] And we shall do this, if indeed God permits it. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, [5] who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, [6] to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences. [7] For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. [8] But whatever brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is closest to what is accursed; their consummation is in combustion. ​

The warning is given with all seriousness; a person who has received Christian baptism thus being illuminated, tasted of the heavenly gift and received the Holy Spirit being partakers of the Spirit and yet turns around, walks away, and rejects Jesus Christ is in a very perilous state so perilous that they are in danger of being cursed by God.

 

[Andrew]

Yes, he did, when he was an infant. And if his parents and guardians in Christ taught him to believe the gospel and to repent of wrongs done then he had faith and works too. He was saved as long as he remained in Christ that is to say as long as he remained in the body of Christ which is the Church and when he departed from the Church and rejected her teaching embracing "blood and soil" religion, a form a paganism, he rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and became an apostate. As an apostate he did very wicked things and is likely not saved and may never be saved. That is the price of his wickedness if it was unrepented. Read, if you have the time what the holy scriptures say in this passage:

(Hebrews 6:1-8) [1] Therefore, interrupting an explanation of the basics of Christ, let us consider what is more advanced, not presenting again the fundamentals of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] of the doctrine of baptism, and also of the imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. [3] And we shall do this, if indeed God permits it. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, [5] who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, [6] to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences. [7] For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. [8] But whatever brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is closest to what is accursed; their consummation is in combustion. ​

The warning is given with all seriousness; a person who has received Christian baptism thus being illuminated, tasted of the heavenly gift and received the Holy Spirit being partakers of the Spirit and yet turns around, walks away, and rejects Jesus Christ is in a very perilous state so perilous that they are in danger of being cursed by God.

If that's what you believe I respect that.

 

[Josiah]

You don't preach that. You preach a person is given faith from the Holy Spirit after doing NOTHING.

According to the Bible, faith is "the free gift of God, lest anyone have reason to boast."
According to the Bible, NO ONE is capable of saying the words "Jesus is Lord" with meaning unless he's received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Bible, JESUS is the Savior. Not you. Yes, it means Jesus is the Savior and so yes, we do nothing that saves ourselves (Jesus thus would not be the Savior)



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[Josiah]

BECAUSE IF THEY OBEY---THEY WILL HAVE FAITH!!!

I'm still waiting for you to supply the names of just THREE non-Christians (out of 5.5 BILLION) who obey and love God and thus God's impotence is lifted and He could give them faith. Who are all these non-Christians who love and obey God? Well, can you name just 3? So far, you haven't even named one. I wonder why?

 

[MoreCoffee]

According to the Bible, faith is "the free gift of God, lest anyone have reason to boast."

If you are alluding to Ephesians 2:8-10 then it is grace that is the free gift and faith is a consequent conduit through which grace acts to save and produce good works.

According to the Bible, NO ONE is capable of saying the words "Jesus is Lord" with meaning unless he's received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Bible, JESUS is the Savior. Not you. Yes, it means Jesus is the Savior and so yes,

Thus far your claim is more or less in the ball park but soon you will exceed what holy scripture teaches and state teachings that are entirely man made.

we do nothing that saves ourselves (Jesus thus would not be the Savior)

Mark 10:17-27 And when he had departed on the way, a certain one, running up and kneeling before him, asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do, so that I may secure eternal life?" 18 But Jesus said to him, "Why call me good? No one is good except the one God. 19 You know the precepts: "Do not commit adultery. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not speak false testimony. Do not deceive. Honor your father and mother." 20 But in response, he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth." 21 Then Jesus, gazing at him, loved him, and he said to him: "One thing is lacking to you. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and then you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me." 22 But he went away grieving, having been greatly saddened by the word. For he had many possessions. 23 And Jesus, looking around, said to his disciples, "How difficult it is for those who have riches to enter into the kingdom of God!" 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus, answering again, said to them: "Little sons, how difficult it is for those who trust in money to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God." 26 And they wondered even more, saying among themselves, "Who, then, can be saved?" 27 And Jesus, gazing at them, said: "With men it is impossible; but not with God. For with God all things are possible."

The Lord, Jesus Christ, teaches that there is something more to salvation than faith alone.

 

[Josiah]

If you are alluding to Ephesians 2:8-10 then it is grace that is the free gift and faith is a consequent conduit through which grace acts to save and produce good works.

Actually, the "this" refers to the whole clause; both grace and faith are "the free gift of God." But you are essentially agreeing with my point (and yes, Catholicism also teaches that faith is a divine gift); faith is the "conduit" as you put it that receives Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. Friend, we agree that faith is ALSO the "conduit" for sanctifying grace (in Sanctification, grace is empowering) but faith must be present since it is impossible to please God without faith, the sanctifying process that Lutherans and Catholics agree on requires the gift of faith (and indeed, strengthens that faith).


There certainly is a dose of synergism an semi-Pelagianism among some Catholics.... but I agree with some here, what our friend GodTruth is proclaiming is far, far more radical (and wrong) than anything I've ever heard from any Catholic.

Mark 10:25 " And they wondered even more, saying among themselves, "Who, then, can be saved?" And Jesus, gazing at them, said: "With men it is impossible; but not with God. For with God all things are possible."

Welcome to Protestantism. See https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior


And yes, once justified, we are called (and empowered) to MUCH - moral perfection, divine holiness, perfect and universal love equal to that of Jesus, and much, much more. These things don't CAUSE spiritual life and faith and the Holy Spirit to dawn or come to us, but they are to flow from such. As Protestants insist. Regeneration is the 'born again' (the COMING of faith, life, Holy Spirit... justification in the narrow sense.... initial grace). But it's not the whole of soteriology, it's just the beginning. We are not saved by OUR works but we are saved FOR our works.



A blessed Easter Season to you...


- Josiah




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[MennoSota]

If you want to claim that all infants are born dead in trespasses and sins and will inevitably go on to live a life of debauchery and sin because they were not made alive in Christ at their baptism then I must disagree because both the Church and experience show that your claim is in error. And as far as adults who receive baptism in adulthood is concerned, they receive the Holy Spirit after they profess faith in Jesus Christ and receive him as their Lord and Saviour. These things happen before baptism and are affirmed in their baptismal vows at the time they are baptised.

You present dogma without biblical evidence, which means it is unsupported opinion. Basically gossip in your church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You present dogma without biblical evidence, which means it is unsupported opinion. Basically gossip in your church.

But no one needs the bible to tell them what they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and know by their experience. If you are so book bound then that explains why the doctrine that you present here is so dead.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, he did, when he was an infant. And if his parents and guardians in Christ taught him to believe the gospel and to repent of wrongs done then he had faith and works too. He was saved as long as he remained in Christ that is to say as long as he remained in the body of Christ which is the Church and when he departed from the Church and rejected her teaching embracing "blood and soil" religion, a form a paganism, he rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and became an apostate. As an apostate he did very wicked things and is likely not saved and may never be saved. That is the price of his wickedness if it was unrepented. Read, if you have the time what the holy scriptures say in this passage:

(Hebrews 6:1-8) [1] Therefore, interrupting an explanation of the basics of Christ, let us consider what is more advanced, not presenting again the fundamentals of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] of the doctrine of baptism, and also of the imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. [3] And we shall do this, if indeed God permits it. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, [5] who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, [6] to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences. [7] For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. [8] But whatever brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is closest to what is accursed; their consummation is in combustion. ​

The warning is given with all seriousness; a person who has received Christian baptism thus being illuminated, tasted of the heavenly gift and received the Holy Spirit being partakers of the Spirit and yet turns around, walks away, and rejects Jesus Christ is in a very perilous state so perilous that they are in danger of being cursed by God.

So...you added a lot of words not found in the text in order to make it say what it does not say...
Let us read Hebrews 6 and note how it ends. It ends with God's promise to the children of the promise.
I could try to explain the legalists that the writer is confronting and telling them that if they go back to works salvation there is no hope of salvation by grace (very similar to Paul's writing to the Galatians). But, I doubt you can accept that.
Instead I quote Hebrews 6 and note that baptism is never mentioned. Thus, your entire premise falls apart.
English Standard Version Hebrews 6:1-20
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings,the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[MennoSota]

But no one needs the bible to tell them what they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and know by their experience. If you are so book bound then that explains why the doctrine that you present here is so dead.

Thanks for sharing your crutch with us. "No one needs the bible..." Got it.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I'm still waiting for you to supply the names of just THREE non-Christians (out of 5.5 BILLION) who obey and love God and thus God's impotence is lifted and He could give them faith. Who are all these non-Christians who love and obey God? Well, can you name just 3? So far, you haven't even named one. I wonder why?

I don't have to name anyone. You don't even make sense.

Why do you keep saying "non-Christians"?

A person becomes a Christian when God saves them after they repent and believe.

I believed in God and Jesus my whole life and Jesus didn't save me until I started to obey him.

 

[Josiah]

I'm still waiting for you to supply the names of just THREE non-Christians (out of 5.5 BILLION) who obey and love God and thus God's impotence is lifted and He could give them faith. Who are all these non-Christians who love and obey God? Well, can you name just 3? So far, you haven't even named one. I wonder why?


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I don't have to name anyone.

You posted that God elects those who obey and love him.

So before God does ANYTHING (before He even decides to eventually do something), that unbeliever must "obey and love" Jesus.

Okay. Then there MUST be non-Christians who obey and love Jesus, otherwise there would be no one for God to elect and thus save.

So, I asked that you give the names of 3 such non-Christians who "obey and love Jesus", just 3 who would be candidates according for you for God to consider giving faith to.

Can't? Hum.

Then there are two options: There is no one on the planet known to you whom God could even consider doing ANYTHING for. Or your theology is wrong. I wonder which?

Why do you keep saying "non-Christians"?

Because this thread is about regeneration, about how those without spiritual life, without faith, without the Holy Spirit are "born again NOT by the will of the human but rather by the will of God." It's about NON-Christians becoming Christian, the arrival of faith/life/the Holy Spirit in their life, so that they are no longer dead but alive (the meaning of regeneration).

I believed in God and Jesus my whole life and Jesus didn't save me until I started to obey him.

so you argue one must obey Him and by doing so, you are saved. Thus salvation is the direct result of YOU obeying (there goes the Gospel, there goes Christianity, there is the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism). But let's examine that. Let's look at what God tells you to do. Now, tell me you OBEY Him (and thus He rewards you with salvation, although you have nothing to be saved from since you do it all)

 

[Josiah]

I'm still waiting for you to supply the names of just THREE non-Christians (out of 5.5 BILLION) who obey and love God and thus God's impotence is lifted and He could give them faith. Who are all these non-Christians who love and obey God? Well, can you name just 3? So far, you haven't even named one. I wonder why?


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I don't have to name anyone.

You posted that God elects those who obey and love him.

So before God does ANYTHING (before He even decides to eventually do something), that unbeliever must "obey and love" Jesus.

Okay. Then there MUST be non-Christians who obey and love Jesus, otherwise there would be no one for God to elect and thus save.

So, I asked that you give the names of 3 such non-Christians who "obey and love Jesus", just 3 who would be candidates according for you for God to consider giving faith to.

Can't? Hum.

Then there are two options: There is no one on the planet known to you whom God could even consider doing ANYTHING for. Or your theology is wrong. I wonder which?

Why do you keep saying "non-Christians"?

Because this thread is about regeneration, about how those without spiritual life, without faith, without the Holy Spirit are "born again NOT by the will of the human but rather by the will of God." It's about NON-Christians becoming Christian, the arrival of faith/life/the Holy Spirit in their life, so that they are no longer dead but alive (the meaning of regeneration).

I believed in God and Jesus my whole life and Jesus didn't save me until I started to obey him.

so you argue one must obey Him and by doing so, you are saved. Thus salvation is the direct result of YOU obeying (there goes the Gospel, there goes Christianity, there is the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism). But let's examine that. Let's look at what God tells you to do. Now, tell me you OBEY Him (and thus He rewards you with salvation, although you have nothing to be saved from since you do it all)


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." So you obey, you are as perfect as the Father in Heaven?

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy." So you obey and you are as holy as God is?

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you." So you love all people just as much as Christ does, as He loved on the Cross?

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you." So you forgive all people?

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." So you live exactly as Jesus did? You are completely Christ-like in all the aspects of your life?

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did." So your attitude is exactly the same as Jesus." We can prove that by every one of your posts?


Hum..... It's good to meet the first person other than Jesus every to have lived who obeys God. Sure could have fooled me!




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[MoreCoffee]

So...you added a lot of words not found in the text in order to make it say what it does not say....

No added words, just a different bible, one with 73 books.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You posted that God elects those who obey and love him.

So before God does ANYTHING (before He even decides to eventually do something), that unbeliever must "obey and love" Jesus.

Okay. Then there MUST be non-Christians who obey and love Jesus, otherwise there would be no one for God to elect and thus save.

So, I asked that you give the names of 3 such non-Christians who "obey and love Jesus", just 3 who would be candidates according for you for God to consider giving faith to.

Can't? Hum.

There are people every day searching for God. Show from the scriptures that I am supposed to name people or am I wrong.

Then there are two options: There is no one on the planet known to you whom God could even consider doing ANYTHING for. Or your theology is wrong. I wonder which?

Yours is false. Give me the scripture or stop with your nonsense.

Because this thread is about regeneration, about how those without spiritual life, without faith, without the Holy Spirit are "born again NOT by the will of the human but rather by the will of God." It's about NON-Christians becoming Christian, the arrival of faith/life/the Holy Spirit in their life, so that they are no longer dead but alive (the meaning of regeneration).

What a mess.

so you argue one must obey Him and by doing so, you are saved. Thus salvation is the direct result of YOU obeying (there goes the Gospel, there goes Christianity, there is the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism). But let's examine that. Let's look at what God tells you to do. Now, tell me you OBEY Him (and thus He rewards you with salvation, although you have nothing to be saved from since you do it all)

God says to believe and obey.

Why don't you do that?

Why do you preach against it?

 

[MennoSota]

No added words, just a different bible, one with 73 books.

Sure. 7 uninspired extras.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You posted that God elects those who obey and love him.

So before God does ANYTHING (before He even decides to eventually do something), that unbeliever must "obey and love" Jesus.

Okay. Then there MUST be non-Christians who obey and love Jesus, otherwise there would be no one for God to elect and thus save.

So, I asked that you give the names of 3 such non-Christians who "obey and love Jesus", just 3 who would be candidates according for you for God to consider giving faith to.

Can't? Hum.

Then there are two options: There is no one on the planet known to you whom God could even consider doing ANYTHING for. Or your theology is wrong. I wonder which?






Because this thread is about regeneration, about how those without spiritual life, without faith, without the Holy Spirit are "born again NOT by the will of the human but rather by the will of God." It's about NON-Christians becoming Christian, the arrival of faith/life/the Holy Spirit in their life, so that they are no longer dead but alive (the meaning of regeneration).






so you argue one must obey Him and by doing so, you are saved. Thus salvation is the direct result of YOU obeying (there goes the Gospel, there goes Christianity, there is the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism). But let's examine that. Let's look at what God tells you to do. Now, tell me you OBEY Him (and thus He rewards you with salvation, although you have nothing to be saved from since you do it all)


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." So you obey, you are as perfect as the Father in Heaven?

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy." So you obey and you are as holy as God is?

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you." So you love all people just as much as Christ does, as He loved on the Cross?

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you." So you forgive all people?

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." So you live exactly as Jesus did? You are completely Christ-like in all the aspects of your life?

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did." So your attitude is exactly the same as Jesus." We can prove that by every one of your posts?


Hum..... It's good to meet the first person other than Jesus every to have lived who obeys God. Sure could have fooled me!




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See there, you prove you don't believe and obey the scriptures.

You even mock them.

 

[Josiah]

You state that you were saved BECAUSE you "obey God."

Let's see if you obey God....

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." So you obey, you are as perfect as the Father in Heaven?

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy." So you obey and you are as holy as God is?

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you." So you love all people just as much as Christ does, as He loved on the Cross?

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you." So you forgive all people?

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." So you live exactly as Jesus did? You are completely Christ-like in all the aspects of your life?

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did." So your attitude is exactly the same as Jesus." We can prove that by every one of your posts?

you prove you don't believe and obey the scriptures.

The issue is your claim that you "obey God" and that's why were are saved. I just want to address the first part, the REASON you gave for your being saved, your claim to obedience. I just listed 6 commands (off the top of my head - there are over 1000 more in Scripture) and asked a very simple and direct question: Do you obey (as you not only claim but state and why you are saved; it's all conditional on your obeying).

I believe these Scriptures. The question is this: You DO obey them as you claim? Then, if you prove that you do, if THAT is why you were saved (although I can't image for what; those that obey need no mercy or forgiveness or salvation).

Do you obey these, as you claim, or not?





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[YourTruthGod]

The issue is your claim that you "obey God" and that's why were are saved. I just want to address the first part, the REASON you gave for your being saved, your claim to obedience. I just listed 6 commands (off the top of my head - there are over 1000 more in Scripture) and asked a very simple and direct question: Do you obey (as you not only claim but state and why you are saved; it's all conditional on your obeying).

I believe these Scriptures. The question is this: You DO obey them as you claim? Then, if you prove that you do, if THAT is why you were saved (although I can't image for what; those that obey need no mercy or forgiveness or salvation).

Do you obey these, as you claim, or not?





.

So you are saying you believe those scriptures but do not obey them?

 

[Josiah]

So you are saying you believe those scriptures but do not obey them?

Read this... Quick trying to evade and "turn the tables" (it's disallowed in debate)

The issue is your claim that you "obey God" and that's why were are saved. YOU claimed it, YOU posted it (not me).

I just want to address the first part, the REASON you gave for your being saved, your claim to obedience. I just listed 6 commands (off the top of my head - there are over 1000 more in Scripture) and asked a very simple and direct question: Do you obey (as you not only claim but state and why you are saved; it's all conditional on your obeying).

Let's see if you obey God.... I just picked just 5 commands (5 out of over 1,000). Do you obey them or not? Simple yes or no.

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." So you obey, you are as perfect as the Father in Heaven?

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy." So you obey and you are as holy as God is?

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you." So you love all people just as much as Christ does, as He loved on the Cross?

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you." So you forgive all people?

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." So you live exactly as Jesus did? You are completely Christ-like in all the aspects of your life?

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did." So your attitude is exactly the same as Jesus." We can prove that by every one of your posts?


I believe these Scriptures. The question is this: You DO obey them as you claim? Then, if you prove that you do, if THAT is why you were saved (although I can't image for what; those that obey need no mercy or forgiveness or salvation).

Do you obey these, as you claim, or not? Did you obey these when you were a non-Christian? It's pretty much a "yes" or "no" question. You said it was "simple" but you have yet to answer it. I wonder why....




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